I know how a lot of people around here feel about GoFundMe/KS etc.
Jeff Dee has a GoFundMe to help with his reclaiming V&V.
https://www.gofundme.com/rt4rt5p9
In case anyone wants to help him out.
Quote from: tenbones;857307I know how a lot of people around here feel about GoFundMe/KS etc.
Jeff Dee has a GoFundMe to help with his reclaiming V&V.
https://www.gofundme.com/rt4rt5p9
In case anyone wants to help him out.
Yeah well...call it Heels and Heroes or something else. $50k for some crusty-old trademark no one under 30 has ever heard of? Sounds like a waste of money.
Quote from: Brad;857316Yeah well...call it Heels and Heroes or something else. $50k for some crusty-old trademark no one under 30 has ever heard of? Sounds like a waste of money.
Given the crap that people have paid for, are still waiting, hoping beyond hope, and none have even remotely this sort of old school nostalgia? 50 bucks is a steal.
Quote from: Brad;857316Yeah well...call it Heels and Heroes or something else. $50k for some crusty-old trademark no one under 30 has ever heard of? Sounds like a waste of money.
He already tried that and it flopped. Like it or not crusty old trademarks are mostly what drives this hobby and too few people want to see anyone's latest ideas.
Quote from: David Johansen;857329He already tried that and it flopped. Like it or not crusty old trademarks are mostly what drives this hobby and too few people want to see anyone's latest ideas.
Are you talking about this (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/2623/Living-Legends)? That's similar to V&V, but not really. If he said, we're publishing the 3rd edition of V&V and it'll be called X&X, I think it'd do fine. Anyone who is remotely interested in Jeff Dee's work should be aware of the trademark bs.
Well at least they didnt get suckered into using Game Salute.
The V&V Card game is now a year past its ship date and allmost immediately the "Working on it! Going to print soon!" cycle started.
This one though was not from Dee or the original designers. It was from Ben Swainbank. Wasnt he one of the writers for Vampire?
Quote from: Omega;857346Well at least they didnt get suckered into using Game Salute.
The V&V Card game is now a year past its ship date and allmost immediately the "Working on it! Going to print soon!" cycle started.
This one though was not from Dee or the original designers. It was from Ben Swainbank. Wasnt he one of the writers for Vampire?
FWIW, the card game is out. I got mine 2 months ago.
I hope he gets it back. I remember absolutely nothing about the actual rules of the game, but I remember playing it fondly as a kid
Quote from: drkrash;857383FWIW, the card game is out. I got mine 2 months ago.
From the Kickstarter or from the TheGameCrafter prototype?
Quote from: Omega;857389From the Kickstarter or from the TheGameCrafter prototype?
The Kickstarter (with the expansion). I just played it yesterday.
Quote from: Brad;857334Are you talking about this (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/2623/Living-Legends)? That's similar to V&V, but not really. If he said, we're publishing the 3rd edition of V&V and it'll be called X&X, I think it'd do fine. Anyone who is remotely interested in Jeff Dee's work should be aware of the trademark bs.
They have a 3rd edition they've been working on. The legal case sidelined it coming out. I've read they want to release it one the legal issue is finalized in their favor
Quote from: urbwar;857405They have a 3rd edition they've been working on. The legal case sidelined it coming out. I've read they want to release it one the legal issue is finalized in their favor
I did a playtest with Jeff Dee for V&V 3rd at a con a few years back, so yeah, it's been ready to go for a while.
But, again, $50k? Say he sells 3000 copies at $25 each...that license just isn't worth it.
Quote from: Brad;857437I did a playtest with Jeff Dee for V&V 3rd at a con a few years back, so yeah, it's been ready to go for a while.
But, again, $50k? Say he sells 3000 copies at $25 each...that license just isn't worth it.
Worse than that. 3k print copies is going to cost to print and ship. So gets back even less.
Quote from: Omega;857438Worse than that. 3k print copies is going to cost to print and ship. So gets back even less.
Obviously that's why he wants Free Money. I mean, at least offer the supporters a copy of the book or something...free PDFs?
Quote from: Brad;857444Obviously that's why he wants Free Money. I mean, at least offer the supporters a copy of the book or something...free PDFs?
Sorry for the non-sequitur, but based on your avatar, I can't help but read your posts in the voice of George Castanza.
Quote from: Brad;857437But, again, $50k? Say he sells 3000 copies at $25 each...that license just isn't worth it.
Of course, Scott Bizar supposedly thought it was worth more than that, hence the legal battle to begin with (or so I've read).
Do I think it's worth that much? Likely not. But legal fees being what they are, this is just helping with that.
Quote from: Omega;857438Worse than that. 3k print copies is going to cost to print and ship. So gets back even less.
They've been using POD for previous releases, so the cost on printing is only when someone orders it. I'd be surprised if they do a print run unless they run a kickstarter/Indiegogo campaign
Quote from: Mistwell;857475Sorry for the non-sequitur, but based on your avatar, I can't help but read your posts in the voice of George Castanza.
I've said for quite some time that his avatar is extremely appropriate.
JG
I don't understand the VV issue. Links would be appreciated!!!
I read this and it made me more confused.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villains_and_Vigilantes
QuoteA judgment given on July 11, 2012, on the first two counts of case no. 2:2011-cv-02036 in U.S. Federal court, Arizona district ruled in favor siding with Scott Bizar resulting in Jeff Dee and Jack Herman being found guilty of defamation and unfair business practice causing unspecified damages to the plaintiff.
So FGU died in 1991, but remained undead legally...
QuoteIn January 2013, the U.S. District Court of Arizona found[19] that Jeff Dee and Jack Herman own all copyrights to Villains and Vigilantes
...then FGU loses in AZ and VV goes back to its creators!
QuoteOn February 19, Scott Bizar filed an appeal with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals
...what happened in the appeals?
Quote from: Spinachcat;857530So FGU died in 1991, but remained undead legally...
...then FGU loses in AZ and VV goes back to its creators!
...what happened in the appeals?
1: Yes. Via a legal loophole FGU was "not really gone" somehow.
2: Correct.
3: At some point FGU got it back, or the designers never really won it back. FGU has been in some ways like Metagaming or Abrams-Gentle. FGU has been selling their stuff from a website.
This will probably keep going back and fourth as long as FGU can find courts agreeable to their case.
I can only imagine that far more money is going to lawyers than either FGU or Jeff Dee would actually make off selling a new V&V edition.
Appeals ain't cheap.
At this point it is probably a vendetta sort of thing.
I wonder if the characters are tied up with the IP. Jeff did a V&V miniseries once and superheroes are big right now. Perhaps there is a Crisis at Crusader Citadel movie in the offing. :p
For all that, having some guy who hasn't sent you a dime in years sitting on your IP must be really awful. Especially with the whole OSR going on and V&V being a couple massive decimal multiplication formuli away from being OD&D.
Quote from: Omega;857574At this point it is probably a vendetta sort of thing.
That's what I'm thinking. I've already hit my quota of KS backings for the rest of the year. My CC is smoking and half melted.
Quote from: Omega;857574At this point it is probably a vendetta sort of thing.
Like most legal suits.
JG
Honestly, I hope they clean up the IP issues and move forward. If he's got the fans to make it go, I think it's fine. I'd be happier if they could square up and make good with FGU but clearly that's not going to happen.
I loved V&V back in the day and really, other than the math (and I like physics equations in my games, but this is a superhero game so the math really has no place here) I think it's one of my favorite super systems.
Quote from: Spinachcat;857573I can only imagine that far more money is going to lawyers than either FGU or Jeff Dee would actually make off selling a new V&V edition.
Appeals ain't cheap.
Yes, this is terrible. Lawyers get fat off emotional people who just won't let it go. The commercial value of the V&V trademark must be far less than either side's legal fees.
Quote from: S'mon;857875Yes, this is terrible. Lawyers get fat off emotional people who just won't let it go. The commercial value of the V&V trademark must be far less than either side's legal fees.
Sometimes its the principle or just not wanting to see the bad guy win. And from appearances FGU has become that for some weird reason. It starts to feel like FGU has been fucking with them just for the chuckles.
Like Metagaming and Steve Jackson.
Quote from: Omega;857876Sometimes its the principle or just not wanting to see the bad guy win. And from appearances FGU has become that for some weird reason. It starts to feel like FGU has been fucking with them just for the chuckles.
Yes, it looks like a grudge match.
Quote from: David Johansen;857716Honestly, I hope they clean up the IP issues and move forward. If he's got the fans to make it go, I think it's fine. I'd be happier if they could square up and make good with FGU but clearly that's not going to happen.
I loved V&V back in the day and really, other than the math (and I like physics equations in my games, but this is a superhero game so the math really has no place here) I think it's one of my favorite super systems.
Math is surprisingly prevelant in supers games.
But V&V is a lesser offender in that regard, imo, I love it too, and only stopped using it a few years ago.
My dream SRPG is a copy of Icons with the V&V art.
Didn't Dee and Herman publish V&V 3rd ed. a few years ago? Who owns the rights now?
Quote from: Phillip;857924Didn't Dee and Herman publish V&V 3rd ed. a few years ago? Who owns the rights now?
Sounds like they had it back briefly. And then FGU won another case and took it back.
Quote from: Phillip;857924Didn't Dee and Herman publish V&V 3rd ed. a few years ago? Who owns the rights now?
No. It was are revision to the last edition FGU published. They've been playtesting 3rd, but put it on hold until everything is resolved. Right now, this current case is over the trademark
Quote from: Omega;857942Sounds like they had it back briefly. And then FGU won another case and took it back.
A judge ruled in Dee & Herman's favor back in 2013, but FGU appealed.
Quote from: urbwar;858000No. It was are revision to the last edition FGU published. They've been playtesting 3rd, but put it on hold until everything is resolved. Right now, this current case is over the trademark
Sounds alot like Abrams-Gentle and how they stonewalled Takara on the Micronauts/Microman line for decades despite being a very dead manufacturer.
Quote from: David Johansen;857329He already tried that and it flopped. Like it or not crusty old trademarks are mostly what drives this hobby and too few people want to see anyone's latest ideas.
There's no assurance that V&V wouldn't flop. A lot of times old trademarks don't do it, either.
Quote from: RPGPundit;858397There's no assurance that V&V wouldn't flop. A lot of times old trademarks don't do it, either.
Old trademarks done badly tend to fail.
Gamma World would be the posterchild for that. 4e D&D the runner up.
This has been going back and forth for a while now. Yes, this goes deeper than just being willing to work out an agreement. In regards to royalties mentioned above, it is my understanding that FGU has always sent payments to Dee and Herman, which they cashed until these legal issues arose.
Quote from: Omega;858004Sounds alot like Abrams-Gentle and how they stonewalled Takara on the Micronauts/Microman line for decades despite being a very dead manufacturer.
I had the thought that the Micronauts would have been great to throw into the "Guardians of the Galaxy" movie, but guessed that they remained someone else's trademark rather than Marvel's. Gotta wonder what it's worth, though, without toys in stores, and what a boost a movie could be for selling those.
Quote from: RPGPundit;858397There's no assurance that V&V wouldn't flop. A lot of times old trademarks don't do it, either.
I recall Games Workshop's
Golden Heroes as having a V&V-ish flavor as well as GW's marketing oomph, and that Dee published a more closely related successor under a title I forget.
What constitutes a 'flop' or 'heartbreaker' depends on the ambitions. Nonetheless, given the revised edition a few years ago, and that I'm probably not the only old-timer quite happy to keep using his copies of 2nd ed., I'm thinking that reasonable expectations are very modest with or without the trademark.
If there's a brave new world demanding V&V, I'm not seeing it. Sure, superhero RPGs generally seem dead in my neighborhood, but Mutants & Masterminds seems to satisfy a lot of folks elsewhere.
When it comes to old computer games, I reckon a significant enough number of people don't consider a system complete without Elite; but another favorite of mine, The Sentinel, could vanish and hardly anyone would notice.
Doesn't mean it's not a great game, but it does mean there's not likely to be much money in it no matter what it's called.