Quote from: Peregrin;569913They could totally be playable.  In fact I'd be fine with someone playing the game as-written and using all those rules.

So long as the GM ends the session by saying, "The Aristocrats!"

ROFL, I loved that movie.  You expected most of the stuff coming from the comedians there but Bob Saget and Betty White?  Pure gold.

I just bought reprints of the three 1979 AD&D core books that WOTC shipped out to stores last month.  I too was exposed to horrible DMs in the early '80s and eventually stuck with Traveller.  It's been 30 years since I played any D&D.  I thought I'd buy these books because of the Gary Gygax memorial fund, and so came home with them, started reading through them, and found a freshness with this RPG that I can't explain.  An innocence maybe?

It's interesting reading about how to be a DM that's written by the guy that invented DMimg practically.  So many house rules are thrown into these books to inspire the reader to create house rules.  A page devoted to linear and bell curve die-roll results, and why/when they are used and not used, etc.

I'm currently playing Oblivion on the PC, and I see a lot of Oblivion in these three AD&D books, and vice versa.  The store I bought them from was selling the books for $21-30 each.  A good price for new books compared to the $150+ price for old used copies.  If I had the time, I'd seriously create a campaign to run for this game.

ADDED:
DM/GMs that do game reviews after playing a few sessions might give a different review than a player character in the game would.  Can a complete game review be given by a player that does not GM games?

I'm not even convinced I fully grasp the intent of the OP/thread.
I know that as a young dude, the idea of AD&D was grand. Application was...nigh impossible for one such as myself.

I had to roll my eyes at myself and retreat back to B/X. The RC was a life-saver at the time as it sort of gave me a game at the 'level' (pardon the pun) of AD&D.
All that stuff, though. All those monsters and classes and...and stuff.
Then I realized that no one, least of all me, wants to read even one of those spell descriptions. What a waste of an afternoon. Go ahead. Read Magic Jar...I'll be watching another episode of Robin of Sherwood and flipping though an issue of Video Watchdog.
Fun art. Pity 'bout the font size.

Then suddenly there was the era of 'D&D games aren't like real...things'. Palladium and WFRP and...something else out there is where it's at!
Then, back to earth with classic D&D.
Now, I can sorta appreciate why others appreciate AD&D. But, to me, it's still too much for too little. I seem to get more or at least the same return with LL +AEC or even just B/X period (with solid DM acknowledgement of PCs' backgrounds). Besides...if I want more classes, there are better options. Like Bard Games' The Compleat Adventurer. Besides, I can use the MM and FF (especially the FF) with any iteration of D&D since I'm not a complete and total idiot.

Quote from: Telarus;569907A couple of them almost their heads knocked off before the confusion was straightened out.

Then, they all went off to drink and laugh about it.

Great story.

I play a lot of NERO LARP which is a boffer style fantasy game (basically D&D in the woods). We use padded pvc weapons but real armor. So.....

My groups was based in Western Pennsylvania and there was another NERO group event in Toronto Ontario. Two cars of LARPers and their gear headed up to Canada.

We crossed the border at Buffalo and I was the lead car. I had no trouble answering the questions and they just waved me through. However Andy, the driver of the second car decided to be a smart ass and started answering the questions before they were asked (the routine was pretty predictable if you crossed before).

The border agent did NOT appreciate this so had Andy pull over his car for inspection. I saw this and pulled over to nearby spot and explained to the nervous border agents that we were driving together so I needed to wait until the inspection was done.

So they get to the point where they opened the trunk. The trunk was all the NERO gear. I don't think the agent was quite believing what he was seeing when they started pulling out suits of chainmail, plate armor pieces, embroidered tabards, and spell packets (small cloths sacks of birdseed about the size of a ping-pong ball used for casting spells in NERO). Luckily the only "weapons" were of the padded PVC variety.

After having Andy disassemble some of the spell packets and some very pointed questions they finally understood that we were reenactors of a sort. Some of the guys tried to explain exactly what NERO was but I chimed in said that we are medieval renactors and this is the gear we used. At which point the Border Agent got it and let us go. It helped that we had a flyer for the event.

Afterward we teased Andy that he crit failed his diplomacy roll.

Quote from: RPGPundit;569774That's a spectacular point. Its part of why I decry that whole notion of "actual play" being somehow important to reviewing a game, for example. "Actual Play" immediately takes things out of the realm of the game as written and into something very specific to the group working: I'm pretty sure I could run a game that was ostensibly Vampire: The Masquerade and make it fucking awesome, or ostensibly My Life With Master and make it an actual RPG (though in the latter case I'd have to houserule to the point that it'd probably be unrecognizeable in all but name).  While any number of dipshits have proven that they can take Rules Cyclopedia D&D and run a piece of shit game with it.

RPGPundit

Well put.

Quote from: MachFront;570251I'm not even convinced I fully grasp the intent of the OP/.

The intent of the OP was a reflection on how a bad DM resulted in a complete revulsion of not just a game itself (AD&D) but also level based mechanics. For some now almost twenty years past it still stands. I am certain that if someone else (such as myself) had run the game the experience and the sentiment would have been different. They might not have loved the game such as some posters here do but I believe they would have at least been open to further exploration on the matter.

The purpose of this thread, if any, was to open a discussion around this and other reflections around the subject.

A lot of the serious problems in this hobby can probably be attributed to someone having had a bad GM at some point or another, and reacting badly to that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;570627A lot of the serious problems in this hobby can probably be attributed to someone having had a bad GM at some point or another, and reacting badly to that.

RPGPundit

Can't argue against that! The number of dumbass GMs I have come across conventions etc are proof of that. Often IME it comes down to the GM having the me vs the players sentiment combined with a 'I have to win' disorder... It leaves a bad taste especially when you're younger. These days I would walk away after enlightening the GM of his shortcomings.

nitril: I understand your OP completely. It is a very common issue, because of problems both you and the Pundit mention. People often conflate D&D with bad play and teenage douchebaggery because they often meet both at the same time of their life. Then they find something to fix things, and it is often through a new game which lets them break out of established bad practices and have a tabula rasa of sorts.*

This issue is also the leading cause of the baffled "why would I still be playing that clunky, outdated childrens' game?" thing that still comes up in online discussion when someone mentions liking D&D. One person is looking at the horrible trainwreck they played when they were playing when they were fourteen, while the other is looking at the game he or she is having fun with right now. It is a recipe for miscommunication. (One time, the argument had totally dominated the Hungarian gaming scene, although it has changed for the better in latter years.)

What matters, I think, is that people should strive to examine their reasons for not liking specific games, and be reasonably fair about it (personal taste is of course okay). I believe you approached things from the right angle.
____________
*(My personal gaming history is a bit different: between fifteen and sixteen, I was essentially squeezed out of the hobby by getting caught between my increasing distaste with the TSR products of the mid 90s (which I considered poorly written and childish), and the rest of the local hobby's increasing rejection of AD&D. The ground I was standing on was gone, and I ended up quitting for a good three years. It was Palladium Fantasy which brought me back, because it taught me again how to enjoy gaming, and also how not to give a crap about the rest. It is a wonderfully educational game in its own way.)

Quote from: Melan;570897This issue is also the leading cause of the baffled "why would I still be playing that clunky, outdated childrens' game?" thing that still comes up in online discussion when someone mentions liking D&D. One person is looking at the horrible trainwreck they played when they were playing when they were fourteen, while the other is looking at the game he or she is having fun with right now. It is a recipe for miscommunication. (One time, the argument had totally dominated the Hungarian gaming scene, although it has changed for the better in latter years.)

Same thing in France. The argument is still VERY popular in some parts. Also, from what I have witnessed, there's a whole subset of French gamers that really started gaming on the Call of Cthulhu, Vampire and French games of the era who later really fell for the Forge rhetoric hook, line and sinker who are still going on about this. It's still fairly common to face those kinds of prejudices re:AD&D.

Among my French gamer friends, many do not even want to TRY AD&D because "it sucks, it's a proto role playing game, it's just door-monster-treasure, repeat, it's mindless hack and slash, it's not a 'real', a 'mature' RPG" blah blah blah. I had a breakthrough a few years ago when I finally convinced SOME of them to TRY the ORIGINAL game of 1974, but we haven't put that to the test yet. Just getting there took me DECADES of discussion with them. It's amazing. Though of course some of these friends still don't want to have anything to do with D&D.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;569362Tabletop roleplaying's Godwin.

Also, very much a self-inflicted problem. I mean, I get that FATAL and its creators are fucked up, but the only reason anybody knows about FATAL at all is because people on RPGNet made an overnight sensation out of it. It started as (IIRC) three badly laid out PDF files on an obscure philosophy website somebody found while surfing, and it would have been immediately forgotten if it weren't for this overwhelming desire to point and laugh.

The same with RaHoWa.

Also,

Quote from: TelarusSo my friend tells this story about a Vampire LARP ran next to an SCA convention in Portland. I hope I've gotten all of the details right.

That may be the greatest story about larps ever.

Quote from: Benoist;570901Same thing in France. The argument is still VERY popular in some parts. Also, from what I have witnessed, there's a whole subset of French gamers that really started gaming on the Call of Cthulhu, Vampire and French games of the era who later really fell for the Forge rhetoric hook, line and sinker who are still going on about this. It's still fairly common to face those kinds of prejudices re:AD&D.

Among my French gamer friends, many do not even want to TRY AD&D because "it sucks, it's a proto role playing game, it's just door-monster-treasure, repeat, it's mindless hack and slash, it's not a 'real', a 'mature' RPG" blah blah blah. I had a breakthrough a few years ago when I finally convinced SOME of them to TRY the ORIGINAL game of 1974, but we haven't put that to the test yet. Just getting there took me DECADES of discussion with them. It's amazing. Though of course some of these friends still don't want to have anything to do with D&D.

Decades? Seriously?

Or you could just leave your friend alone and let them play the games they enjoy while you carry on and play the games you enjoy. Surely there are games that you aren't interested in, entire genres that just don't do it for you. And I am also sure there you don't need to try to know they are not for you. So what's the evangelical zeal?

Not every roleplayer needs to love, care or understand D&D. It's just that simple, why complicate it?

Quote from: Soylent Green;570917Decades? Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Quote from: Soylent Green;570917Or you could just leave your friend alone and let them play the games they enjoy while you carry on and play the games you enjoy. Surely there are games that you aren't interested in, entire genres that just don't do it for you. And I am also sure there you don't need to try to know they are not for you. So what's the evangelical zeal?

Way to go being a total fucking idiot not understanding what he's talking about, not being in my actual shoes and just assuming everything. I'm talking about my best friends, moron. I didn't spend decades talking about D&D every single fucking time bringing up the subject like a retard OCD over and over while we were talking to each other, but did talk about it when the subject came into the conversation, as for instance when they'd say something derogatory about D&D like throwing a joke about how this or that game isn't as bad as D&D or whatnot. Also, I've introduced some of these people to RPGs myself. And we played 2, 3 times weekly for a decade. Most games run by me. And it wasn't D&D obviously.

So really you can take your assumptions, judgment and shove them up your ass.

You have no fucking clue what it is you are talking about.

A+! :cool:

Quote from: Melan;570930A+! :cool:

I admit I thought the same thing when I first saw the big A+ avatar several days ago

Sort of like Lindsay Lohan taking a pledge against getting drunk in public.