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Back in the day, when we played D&D (From now on here I mean OD&D, okay) we were all of us focused on the map.  The map gives vital clues to the treasure hunt that is dungeon exploration.  "Hey, what's over there?"  or maybe "Hey, notice this stub corridor, if there were a secret door right here..."

And this keeps up in some circles; after running a game in NYC for the Blog of Holding folks, I've remarked several times, including hereabouts, that by the end of the campaign, everybody was focused on the maps just like Ye Oldie Dayse.

At GaryCon nobody's looking at the damn map.  I think that's why the games have been so unsuccessful; people don't realize that an old man will not walk up to them in an inn and hand them a quest coupon.  D&D in its earliest incarnation is a game of exploration and treasure hunting, and to explore you have to cover ground.

This year I finally lost my temper a bit and gave them a "All Right you Primitive Screwheads, Listen Up!" speech.  And yes, I did use just those words.

Because we'd been playing for over 2 hours, and all that had happened is they'd traversed 100 feet of corridor, once in each direction.

The map.  It's all about the map.

You know, this can just as easily apply to SFRPGs like Traveller and the subsector map.

You should have vetted your players before starting the game.

It's more than that, Gronan.  No one explores for the sake of exploring anymore.  And honestly, as much as I love Fantasy Novels, TV/Movies and Video Games, they all part of the reason why and thus must blame them.  A lot of people nowadays, especially of my generation and younger, used those sources to get our fantasy fix.

One of the biggest Fantasy Book sources you can blame it on, is Lord of The Rings.  The entire trilogy effectively starts with an old man giving a Hobbit an Adventure Coupon.  A lot of books from the 70's did this, the Shannara series did, Earthsea as well, and remember a lot of kids who would be into D&D would be using that model to game.  There's a reason a meeting in a bar is considered a 'stupid cliche'.  Almost all of the novels since then have also done it.

Thing is, the younger generation after mine, also suddenly have Video Games which also uses that Adventure Coupon model, and all though the originals that used D&D as a model, like Rogue, Mines of Moria, Wizardry and the like, were kind of like the old 1974 little brown books, when the Japanese entered the gaming medium with the Atari and then the Nintendo, they brought over their RPGs, which used their ideas of story telling.  The JRPG is a combination 'Visual Novel' mixed in with D&D like mechanics, and that took off hard in the late 80s and early 90s.  All the way to affecting other forms of gaming.  But all of them use the Adventure Coupon as a hook to get their characters into the adventure.  Especially the way that the Japanese prefer to have the 'Zero to Hero' model as their basis.  Most Japanese heroes are not special, being rather common and unless the Adventure Coupon showed up, they wouldn't have done anything other than probably be yet another Salariman cog in some Japanese corporate machine.  The American hero is special from the word go, they're going to do something about the situation at hand, they don't need to be given a Coupon, they make them!

Here's the rub, I feel ya.  I honestly do.  See, your style can be analogous to Sword and Sorcery tales, which I grew up on.  The 'heroes' show up to a location, because they want to not because they have to, they face danger while looking for some loot to spend somewhere else.  Why?  Cuz they can!  There's no 'Great Evil!' that needs to be stopped or the world will end, well, if there is, the world in general will never know, because if the heroes are lucky, they will smite it and move on.  There's no impetus other than the heroes' desire to see what's over the hill, or under it.  I like that style.

It fits your love of miniatures.  And I don't mean just army figures, but I believe you've mentioned that you're also into model trains. Both types aren't built on a hook, it's built because YOU want to build them.  No one told you to build a train set or else the world is Doomed!(tm), you did it cuz you liked to.  (I could of course be wrong here, but I'm basing it off the interactions we've had over the past 6 or so years.)

But even the Conan comics, like the Savage Sword ones, had a linear thread, a story progression, a 'Hook' that was extraneous to the players' choices to go somewhere do something.

The times, Old Geezer, have changed, players have changed with them.  And for the most part, a lot of people don't want to go back to the "meet in tavern, then explore them thar hills yonder".  It sucks but that's how it goes.  I know you don't like the 'newer' style of game, but you have to realize that especially at Conventions, the new players (and by new I mean anyone who doesn't have your experiences, or played as long as you have) will be used to what they know as gaming.  And right now, your preferred way is more or less dead.

It may not stay that way, but it really is right now.  Sorry man.  :(

Damn, man, I know we can get on each others' nerves sometimes, but that's a hell of a post.  Thanks.

I owe you a beer.

I think I would despair, were this anywhere other than GaryCon.  Old school gaming is what GaryCon is ABOUT.  I want people to experience OD&D as we played it, not in a special way presented for a convention.  There are a few players who still get it/remember it.  So, just like I've prepared a one page precis of CHAINMAIL for new players, I'm working on a page of bullet points for OD&D.  Not like Matt Finch's primer, but more metagaming.

The key to success is proper management of expectations.

Maybe an opaque projector to shoot the map up on the wall so it's easier to see for everyone.  Hmm...

Could you talk more about the map and it's importance? Nowadays the players aren't even responsible for the map or it's just a loosely drawn placeholder so you naturally don't think much of it.

So, knowing all this, in a very silly GURPS Fantasy one off, provoked by a player who wanted absolutely no traditional fantasy races in the game, I created the Quest Giver's Guild with their distinctive question mark shaped hats.

I'm of mixed opinion on maps, I love them, I love to draw them, I love that Traveller has a world map generator app that takes a UPP and generates a map but a map can also be a problem, because sometimes I just want the players to shut up and play the game and focus on the action, and sometimes knowing the action is a couple weeks journey away kills the flow of the action dead because players want to explore every bloody point on the map.  Remember the Judges Guild Campaign Hexagon system?  Too many players see that as an invitation to a minute by minute play through.  Players!  Man I hate them!  I think I'm just gonna write novels from now on. :D

The Mines of Moria is the one part of LotR that worked like D&D.  Optimal side quest filled with danger, discovery, and the need to find the way through.  Hugely inspirational for me.  

Traveller is even more exploration oriented than D&D.  Heck, it does not really even have character advancement.  You explore and maybe pay off a ship.  The whole setting is about trying to make a sandbox work.  I did love that game.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030036Maybe an opaque projector to shoot the map up on the wall so it's easier to see for everyone.  Hmm...

Opaque and overhead projectors are going cheap at the local surplus places, and I have printable transparency film on the shelves here in the home office. Or, you could borrow one of the laptop fleet and one of our three LCD projectors, like I used at Gary Con three years ago; you could also borrow one of the two big-screen (42" & 52") active displays I recently picked up for next to nothing, which I bought specifically for use at Gary Con because of the issues with the controllability of the room lighting.

Just saying.

( Side comment: You'd think I'd given this some thought, based on actual play experience. Just saying. :) )

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1030032You should have vetted your players before starting the game.

This is one of those things that sounds good, that I've probably said in the past myself, that I no longer subscribe to.  Sometimes you've got to grow the hobby.  Let people try the game who aren't already sold on it, who may not fit the profile of your ideal player, and show them what it's about.

Maybe not always in your home game, but for a public-facing one shot, "Go out to the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, that my house may be full."

Heh.  The only change we'd have to make is to show the mapper's map as they draw it, rather than revealing a drawn map.

I did think of your arrangement, but was biding my time for your input. :D

Quote from: Dave R;1030045This is one of those things that sounds good, that I've probably said in the past myself, that I no longer subscribe to.  Sometimes you've got to grow the hobby.  Let people try the game who aren't already sold on it, who may not fit the profile of your ideal player, and show them what it's about.

Maybe not always in your home game, but for a public-facing one shot, "Go out to the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, that my house may be full."

It's a convention game.  Ya takes what ya gets.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030037Could you talk more about the map and it's importance? Nowadays the players aren't even responsible for the map or it's just a loosely drawn placeholder so you naturally don't think much of it.

Well, the referee simply describes things.  "Stairs down to the west.  Ten feet, twenty feet, thirty feet, forty feet west.  Stairs end, door north, door west, door south.  What do you do?"

Now, you don't HAVE to map, but good luck getting out alive.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030026Back in the day, when we played D&D (From now on here I mean OD&D, okay) we were all of us focused on the map.  The map gives vital clues to the treasure hunt that is dungeon exploration.  "Hey, what's over there?"  or maybe "Hey, notice this stub corridor, if there were a secret door right here..."

And this keeps up in some circles; after running a game in NYC for the Blog of Holding folks, I've remarked several times, including hereabouts, that by the end of the campaign, everybody was focused on the maps just like Ye Oldie Dayse.

At GaryCon nobody's looking at the damn map.  I think that's why the games have been so unsuccessful; people don't realize that an old man will not walk up to them in an inn and hand them a quest coupon.  D&D in its earliest incarnation is a game of exploration and treasure hunting, and to explore you have to cover ground.

This year I finally lost my temper a bit and gave them a "All Right you Primitive Screwheads, Listen Up!" speech.  And yes, I did use just those words.

Because we'd been playing for over 2 hours, and all that had happened is they'd traversed 100 feet of corridor, once in each direction.

The map.  It's all about the map.

Interesting. This may articulate what I am not thrilled with in the 5e campaign that I'm in, or the gaming that I've seen at conventions. I've had to intervene several times in the 5e campaign to explain why the information on the map is important; I've had to jump in and explain why walking through a narrow pass or gorge is likely to get us ambushed, and the players look at me blankly. They are not stupid - they pick up on this when I mention it - but the idea of 'going around' or 'scouting' gets ditched in favor of mining the possible (probable! certain!) ambush for the XP contained in the bodies of the ambushers. I've seen this particular group cut to ribbons several times this way, and I'm the one who usually has to put them back together.

I'm fascinated by this observation. Exploration is a huge part of all the games that I run, with the players having to explore the 2D or 3D 'map' to get information. People seem to like it, s they act like they've never seen or done anything like it in gaming before. The Gary Con game we did didn't seem to have this problem and I think it's because I had the map projected up on the wall and you as the 'native guide' to keep them focused.  I dunno. Thoughts?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030046Heh.  The only change we'd have to make is to show the mapper's map as they draw it, rather than revealing a drawn map.

I did think of your arrangement, but was biding my time for your input. :D

Piece of cake. The Elmo (document camera brand) is your friend, and I see them go by for cheap all the time. God makes switchers that can show both your map and theirs on the same screen, suitably obscured for the players. Got it in the basement, all ready to use on the video system. This is an easy problem; installed a lot of these over the years, and they do pack up nice and small.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030048Well, the referee simply describes things.  "Stairs down to the west.  Ten feet, twenty feet, thirty feet, forty feet west.  Stairs end, door north, door west, door south.  What do you do?"

Now, you don't HAVE to map, but good luck getting out alive.

Funny you should say that. I always map on a graph paper pad 'on the side' in the game, and more then once the GM has had to crib offa my map as I'm a lot better them he is at mapping on the fly. And my prepared maps, like the palace floor plan, causes him and the players to swoon with delight - and they love to play on it, in 'real time', as it were.

Allah, The Most Merciful and Compassionate. Maybe I should offer classes in how to be a successful adventurer in Ye Olden Style. I can think of three guys who'd be laughing their heads of at the notion...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030046Heh.  The only change we'd have to make is to show the mapper's map as they draw it, rather than revealing a drawn map.

I did think of your arrangement, but was biding my time for your input. :D

All this stuff will fit in Der Bug, too; that's how I get it home. Just sayin'. (You have options, my General. It's my job, remember?)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030035The times, Old Geezer, have changed, players have changed with them.  And for the most part, a lot of people don't want to go back to the "meet in tavern, then explore them thar hills yonder".  It sucks but that's how it goes.  I know you don't like the 'newer' style of game, but you have to realize that especially at Conventions, the new players (and by new I mean anyone who doesn't have your experiences, or played as long as you have) will be used to what they know as gaming.  And right now, your preferred way is more or less dead.

Agreed, wholeheartedly. My perception is that I'm personally shouting into the wind, talking about how we used to game, and that I'm flushing money right down the drain with all the stuff I use in my games. (On the other hand, the two plasma screens in the game room and lounge do make for spectacular movie watching.) I think I'll keep offering the option to people, and if they want to try me out, then I'll give 'em a chance.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030046Heh.  The only change we'd have to make is to show the mapper's map as they draw it, rather than revealing a drawn map.

I did think of your arrangement, but was biding my time for your input. :D

Another option is to take the Panasonic mixer I have, still-store your complete map, and then superimpose a circle matte over the map showing the players only what's within their sight and hearing range. Easy-peasey; it's a pre-programmed function, and you can move the matte over the map as they move along, so that they only see the immediate area around them. Punch-and-crunch to their version of the map for added hilarity and cheap humor.

Piece of cake. This is briefcase video, nothing special.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030037Could you talk more about the map and it's importance? Nowadays the players aren't even responsible for the map or it's just a loosely drawn placeholder so you naturally don't think much of it.

Dang; that scares me. Back in the day, the GMs spent vast amounts of time and effort on their maps and the keys to them, as these were the 'GM Guide' for the adventure. Players had to puzzle out the map and get the spacial relationships, as well as discover what was lying around the place and then having to throttle whatever might be guarding the goodies. I'm astonished to see the huge tomes full of paragraphs that the GMs simply read to the players, and them having to read the text over and over again while the players take notes. It's like watching a lecture in a class.

I think you're right, though; I've seen players miss the most obvious things and get killed simply because they are not looking at the map I lay out for them. "What You See Is What You Get!", in our tradition.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1030049Interesting. This may articulate what I am not thrilled with in the 5e campaign that I'm in, or the gaming that I've seen at conventions. I've had to intervene several times in the 5e campaign to explain why the information on the map is important; I've had to jump in and explain why walking through a narrow pass or gorge is likely to get us ambushed, and the players look at me blankly. They are not stupid - they pick up on this when I mention it - but the idea of 'going around' or 'scouting' gets ditched in favor of mining the possible (probable! certain!) ambush for the XP contained in the bodies of the ambushers. I've seen this particular group cut to ribbons several times this way, and I'm the one who usually has to put them back together.

I'm fascinated by this observation. Exploration is a huge part of all the games that I run, with the players having to explore the 2D or 3D 'map' to get information. People seem to like it, s they act like they've never seen or done anything like it in gaming before. The Gary Con game we did didn't seem to have this problem and I think it's because I had the map projected up on the wall and you as the 'native guide' to keep them focused.  I dunno. Thoughts?

I think the issue is their perception that the only way to get XP is to kill stuff.  One thing I've learned in the Adventure League is that, beating an encounter whether it is by planning a counter ambush, avoiding it (as long as there's a risk involved) or just plan running away, should net you the same amount of XP as if you went in and slaughtered everything.  That also includes full negotiations and other purely Role Playing encounters.

I love maps. As mentioned before. My first session of D&D was as the party's cartographer.

From personal experience Id says its very YMMV as playstyles can vary sooooooooooooo freaking much. Simmilar is my older observation on the near death of the use of retainers, henchmen and other hired help. Very few players seem to want them or even think of them anymore.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030036Old school gaming is what GaryCon is ABOUT.

Actually, GaryCon is about a huge-ass bunch of uber nerds showing up in one place is all. Of which hardly any can role-play. And it's boring for kids to sit around at a table while their dads do basically nothing but shoot-the-shit with each other, and stare at a boring grid poster map with pieces not moving on it. Most boring board game ever is what kids think.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1030072Actually, GaryCon is about a huge-ass bunch of uber nerds showing up in one place is all. Of which hardly any can role-play. And it's boring for kids to sit around at a table while their dads do basically nothing but shoot-the-shit with each other, and stare at a boring grid poster map with pieces not moving on it. Most boring board game ever is what kids think.

And how do you know this, O Font of Wisdom?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030026The map.  It's all about the map.

Exploring a dungeon is so central to my formative D&D experiences that I took it for granted that's just what D&D is. Players carefully drawing out the map as they explore, drawing notes and illustrations in the margins, making suggestions, pointing out tactical advantages of this or that route. The engagement of the imagination with exploring the unknown. That's really the central of appeal of the game.

However, I've learned that approach to the game is far from the norm today. My group now is made of guys my age, but who started playing later (the late 80s rather than late 70s), and have a completely different approach to D&D. It's all about the character sheets and what's on them. Their tradition is for the DM to draw the map and hand it to the players. The central focus of attention is the battle map once combat kicks off. They don't really care about exploration, just achieving story and XP goals. When I've been running campaigns, I ask players to draw the maps and it's clear they regard it as a really unpleasant chore that nobody wants to do. They keep pushing the graph paper at me to do it. Basically, they just don't get the appeal.

And I've noticed it's not just players. The reason I became a DM when I was 10 years old was because I loved drawing maps. Sitting down on a Friday night and drawing a 26 room dungeon to play the next day was a tremendously satisfying creative endeavor. Apparently, that's not at all common anymore. GMs on forums and Youtube usually suggest using pre-made maps. Even the prominent D&D designers like Chris Perkins say they hate drawing maps. I loved it right from the outset. So did my best friend and co-DM. And the players all loved drawing while we played. Is it a matter of people just not enjoying putting pencil to paper anymore? Or not having any confidence because they feel they need to experts?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030062I think the issue is their perception that the only way to get XP is to kill stuff.  One thing I've learned in the Adventure League is that, beating an encounter whether it is by planning a counter ambush, avoiding it (as long as there's a risk involved) or just plan running away, should net you the same amount of XP as if you went in and slaughtered everything.  That also includes full negotiations and other purely Role Playing encounters.

Agreed. What I've been seeing is a tendency to wade right in and kill whatever's in front of the party; we had this happen in the last game session where a new player in the campaign but a very experienced League player went right into full murder hobo mode. One of the regulars was not amused, and she's planning on saying something about it this coming Sunday at our next session. We'll see what happens.

Fascinated by the comment on non-combat activity, and I agree with what you say. Locally, it seems this is very much the exception, and it's pretty rare to see it happening.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030026At GaryCon nobody's looking at the damn map.  I think that's why the games have been so unsuccessful; people don't realize that an old man will not walk up to them in an inn and hand them a quest coupon.  D&D in its earliest incarnation is a game of exploration and treasure hunting, and to explore you have to cover ground.

Do you explain this upfront to the players?

I mostly do Adventure Coupons at cons. It's a 4hr or 6hr slot, mostly strangers, pre-gen characters so its easy for most players.

However, I do 4hr sandboxes as well, but I pimp that upfront in the game description. I tell the players they are reavers who've traveled together to a dangerous place seeking loot. Roll for some rumors you've heard.  I rarely have a problem with the players who show up for that. The adventure becomes "get the most gold" and away they go.  

That said, my Traveller and Gamma World "search and loots" have gone better than my D&D ones.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030026This year I finally lost my temper a bit and gave them a "All Right you Primitive Screwheads, Listen Up!" speech.  And yes, I did use just those words.

That's losing your temper?

That's how I begin many sessions.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030048Well, the referee simply describes things.  "Stairs down to the west.  Ten feet, twenty feet, thirty feet, forty feet west.  Stairs end, door north, door west, door south.  What do you do?"

I draw the map based on what their PCs see. [or put out the cardboard slats which I prefer these days]

I assume the PCs (not players) are competent enough to remember where they've been (but the locales may change in their absence...)

However, there is always plenty of mystery to be searched out on my maps. Even if my method drops some of the "where", I instead have lots of "why", "how" and "who" happening throughout the map.

I do this because I have NO FUCKING PATIENCE when most players draw-as-slow-and-confused-as-fuck.

For me, momentum is key to maintaining immersion.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1030072Most boring board game ever is what kids think.

Most kids really enjoy RPGs.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030036Old school gaming is what GaryCon is ABOUT.

Is it?

I haven't attended any GaryCons, so my comments come from a position of no personal experience. But I remember when Pathfinder was first allowed in, and the worry expressed was that GaryCon was becoming less about old school gaming and more about following what is current/popular and "growing the con." I know those concerns were downplayed by the powers that be (it's about gaming...Gary loved gaming...it's about honoring Gary and the gaming he loved...etc). Maybe they were right. Maybe not. Again, I don't know.

I know I heard at least one attendee from this year commenting that most Pathfinder and 5e games were upstairs, and the AD&D games tended to be down in the basement or out at the ass-end of the lodge. If true (in general), that is what it is, and I get it, but it would seem to suggest that the con is more focused on servicing the "modern/current" market (and maybe "growing the con") than it is about actual old school gaming. Honoring Gary? Sure. All about old school gaming? Open question, in my mind.

I know you can find good old school gaming at GaryCon if you seek it out. I'm not saying you can't. But my impression is that "old school" is more "honored" than practiced.

My personal take on cons is "the smaller and more focused, the better." I'm not into "general geek-culture" cons. I'm not into 5e/Pathfinder/etc. I'm not looking for Star Trek video rooms or cosplay or anime. I want to go to a small gathering of gamers and sign up for games of original D&D, 1e AD&D, DGUTS, Tractics, FITS, Chainmail, golden age Avalon Hill, et cetera. Small cons and even "mini-cons" held at someone's house or at a local hotel or restaurant suit me just fine.

I went to GaryCon this year (first Con since I went to GenCon in 1984). I played a lot of 5e AL games and they had rooms full of tables doing that. It was a D&D convention with a lot of cool older games. I started with 0D&D and mapped like crazy and DMed explaining what players saw. This year I played in a game Matt Finch ran and we mapped. I run a lot of games on Fantasy Grounds and hard to use a VTT without the map projected. The 5e games were all in one central and well organized area. The wargames (which I love and which I started with) were also in one central and well organized area. Evething else was scattered all over the place.

I bet that was by design. Newer players cannot map and older style players can so we got more of a challenge ....

I've pretty much always thought the maps of most games were one of the most appealing parts of them, and without them, I don't think there's much actual world in play.

One of the main elements of play in my campaigns is always the map. The GM maps the world, and it is full of terrain and different sorts of places, which is where everyone and everything is, and the players never see the real maps that represent the actual world. It's up to them, and one of the main things the game is about, to go to different places and therefore find out what's there and be able to interact with it. Making and obtaining accurate maps is one of the main things there is to do.

But also on a personal scale. I love mapped tactical combat, but also just running a session where people see the current location and place counters or figures where there characters are, can add a whole lot of "presence" and engagement to play, and is a really natural thing for everyone to do.

Quote from: Haffrung;1030077Exploring a dungeon is so central to my formative D&D experiences that I took it for granted that's just what D&D is. Players carefully drawing out the map as they explore, drawing notes and illustrations in the margins, making suggestions, pointing out tactical advantages of this or that route. The engagement of the imagination with exploring the unknown. That's really the central of appeal of the game.

However, I've learned that approach to the game is far from the norm today. My group now is made of guys my age, but who started playing later (the late 80s rather than late 70s), and have a completely different approach to D&D. It's all about the character sheets and what's on them. Their tradition is for the DM to draw the map and hand it to the players. The central focus of attention is the battle map once combat kicks off. They don't really care about exploration, just achieving story and XP goals. When I've been running campaigns, I ask players to draw the maps and it's clear they regard it as a really unpleasant chore that nobody wants to do. They keep pushing the graph paper at me to do it. Basically, they just don't get the appeal.

And I've noticed it's not just players. The reason I became a DM when I was 10 years old was because I loved drawing maps. Sitting down on a Friday night and drawing a 26 room dungeon to play the next day was a tremendously satisfying creative endeavor. Apparently, that's not at all common anymore. GMs on forums and Youtube usually suggest using pre-made maps. Even the prominent D&D designers like Chris Perkins say they hate drawing maps. I loved it right from the outset. So did my best friend and co-DM. And the players all loved drawing while we played. Is it a matter of people just not enjoying putting pencil to paper anymore? Or not having any confidence because they feel they need to experts?

It's because modern gaming is about story arcs and character personalities. What difference does it make what the dimensions of some random room are? It's just irrelevant detail for the players and extra work that won't get used by the DM.

So the DM just draws a battle map for combat clarity when a fight starts and it's usually a few general squiggles to give a rough idea.

I dunno man, I had 2 players mapping at my game at GaryCon and they were pretty serious about it.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1030084I know I heard at least one attendee from this year commenting that most Pathfinder and 5e games were upstairs, and the AD&D games tended to be down in the basement or out at the ass-end of the lodge. If true (in general), that is what it is, and I get it, but it would seem to suggest that the con is more focused on servicing the "modern/current" market (and maybe "growing the con") than it is about actual old school gaming.

I did not know this. I had thought GaryCon was old school focused event.

Bummer.

But NOW I understand why Gronan was having trouble with his events. Organized play spoonfeeds the we-win railroad. Of course those players are useless. Fortunately, they have AL and PFS to keep them far away from my table so I'm forever thankful.


Philotomy (or anyone else), do you know of any TSR/OSR conventions? Even small ones?

I personally love small cons. The Palladium Open House (about 250-300) is a truly great event for PB fans.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030087It's because modern gaming is about story arcs and character personalities.

The 1990s called and would like their pretentiousness back.

Story arcs and personalities!! LoL. That explains all the giant rulebooks for "modern games".

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030090The 1990s called and would like their pretentiousness back.

Story arcs and personalities!! LoL. That explains all the giant rulebooks for "modern games".

Note that I'm not saying it's better, just explaining why the idea of mapping gets blank stares and why Mearls was so surprised by having fun with it.

That said, actual groups of players are always a mishmash of stuff, not theory, and I'll be introducing my players to the concept in the next dungeon.

I tell my players in my Stonehell Dungeon game "You're here looking for treasure... You need to draw a map." This seems to work very well - some people refuse to map, but many do. Ideally the maps get passed around so new groups can benefit.

I was very happy when three players on their first session used the map they'd drawn to decide there could be a secret chamber in a blank spot - and sad to tell them there wasn't one there. Should have given them bonus XP. :)

Quote from: S'mon;1030101I tell my players in my Stonehell Dungeon game "You're here looking for treasure... You need to draw a map." This seems to work very well - some people refuse to map, but many do. Ideally the maps get passed around so new groups can benefit.

I was very happy when three players on their first session used the map they'd drawn to decide there could be a secret chamber in a blank spot - and sad to tell them there wasn't one there. Should have given them bonus XP. :)

I saw Mearls mention this too. What makes people so sure a random blank square has a secret?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030090The 1990s called and would like their pretentiousness back.

It's not taking calls anymore.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030090Story arcs and personalities!! LoL. That explains all the giant rulebooks for "modern games".

No, not really.  Most game systems don't have rules for arcs and personalities, it just lets players go.  The explanation for the giant rule books is an attempt at trying to be clear and precise.  And sometimes, lots of words is how it ends up having.

But it's not any better or worse for it.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030102I saw Mearls mention this too. What makes people so sure a random blank square has a secret?

Mystery novels and shows.  It teaches people that nothing is as it seems.  Even when it really is as it seems.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030102I saw Mearls mention this too. What makes people so sure a random blank square has a secret?

Sometimes they do. And IRL if you built a castle up not a dungeon down, a blank space on the map definitely DOES mean a hidden room.

Anyway I was just happy three players who had only ever watched Critical Role, apparently never played D&D before, were engaged with exploration to the extent of thinking of such things. They definitely were not in 'feed me' mode.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030062I think the issue is their perception that the only way to get XP is to kill stuff.  One thing I've learned in the Adventure League is that, beating an encounter whether it is by planning a counter ambush, avoiding it (as long as there's a risk involved) or just plan running away, should net you the same amount of XP as if you went in and slaughtered everything.  That also includes full negotiations and other purely Role Playing encounters.

Yeah this is simply the 5e experience system encouraging killing things. The old xp for gold isnt great either, but it's better than xp for killing stuff.

Quote from: S'mon;1030101I was very happy when three players on their first session used the map they'd drawn to decide there could be a secret chamber in a blank spot - and sad to tell them there wasn't one there. Should have given them bonus XP. :)

Just yesterday, my players hired some extra fellows with pickaxes to excavate a suspiciously blank section of Castle Xyntillan. Unfortunately, they made so much noise that they attracted the attention of Count Giscard deVourey-Malévol, and while most of the party could beat a hasty retreat, the party's Cleric was later found wandering into the nearby town drained of most of his blood.

(They returned on the next expedition to loot the place, though, and got some nice bounty at the cost of only one henchman.)

Maps.

It's funny, I remember using maps a long time ago (80s). But I also remember thinking, are we cheating? By looking at the map we can see where the secret doors probably are, and because of the dimensions of an A4 page, where things probably arent (eg, look we've explored the whole left side up to the edge of the page - there's obviously not more dungeon that way - we go back the other way). I cant say I miss that kind of analysis, myself. On the other hand, I love to see nice maps as GM.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1030120It's funny, I remember using maps a long time ago (80s). But I also remember thinking, are we cheating? By looking at the map we can see where the secret doors probably are, and because of the dimensions of an A4 page, where things probably arent (eg, look we've explored the whole left side up to the edge of the page - there's obviously not more dungeon that way - we go back the other way). I cant say I miss that kind of analysis, myself. On the other hand, I love to see nice maps as GM.

Well it's best not to give the players the GM's map, unless the PCs have an actual in-world map of the location.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1030118Yeah this is simply the 5e experience system working encouraging killing things. The old xp for gold isnt great either, but it's better than xp for killing stuff.

Older editions don't differ in this regard. I ran a successful old school sandbox with 5E and disregarded such silly things like the Challenge Rating. It worked just fine.

When people know they will earn XP even if they circumvent a potentially deadly encounter, they quickly switch from killing everything to outsmarting what might be too tough for them to handle.

Quote from: Melan;1030119Just yesterday, my players hired some extra fellows with pickaxes to excavate a suspiciously blank section of Castle Xyntillan. Unfortunately, they made so much noise that they attracted the attention...

The Amazon Fighter Nemesis IMC once decided to chip away at a sinister obelisk that reversed all spellcasting, the noise attracting a ghoul pack - they were lucky to only lose 2 PCs! Now whenever someone suggests a noisy activity in the dungeon she goes "Noooo!" :D

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1030122Older editions don't differ in this regard. I ran a successful old school sandbox with 5E and disregarded such silly things like the Challenge Rating. It worked just fine.

When people know they will earn XP even if they circumvent a potentially deadly encounter, they quickly switch from killing everything to outsmarting what might be too tough for them to handle.

Yes, that's my experience too.

The computer game "Mine Craft" had to add an "End Boss" because just building stuff and exploring wasn't enough. :(

It's been my experience that Decision Paralysis occurs when players are not given at least an initial goal/motivation.
=

Quote from: Greentongue;1030126The computer game "Mine Craft" had to add an "End Boss" because just building stuff and exploring wasn't enough. :(

It's been my experience that Decision Paralysis occurs when players are not given at least an initial goal/motivation.
=

I find this hard to believe.

When you play "Dungeon Fantasy", the goal is inherent in the game's mechanisms. Everything old school D&D does is geared towards it.

Quote from: S'mon;1030101I was very happy when three players on their first session used the map they'd drawn to decide there could be a secret chamber in a blank spot - and sad to tell them there wasn't one there. Should have given them bonus XP. :)

I admit, that if my Players are being extra clever with something like this, that I will put it in just because I like to reward them being clever.

To all the doubters Gary Con is still a great place to play old school type games.  There has been an influx of Pathfinder and 5E over the last few years but that's on top of the already existing games.  I figure that there is no single time over the three and half days where there aren't at least 3 AD&D 1st Edition games to choose from (and most of the time more than three) and that's just to start with as basically any game system you've heard of has an event.  There is also the chance to play a number of classic war games like Chainmail, Dawn Patrol etc.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030036Maybe an opaque projector to shoot the map up on the wall so it's easier to see for everyone.  Hmm...

I do notice a difference when I run something using theater of the mind versus maps, minis, dwarven forge, etc. The players seem to grasp better "hey here a corridor we missed going down too" when it there in front of them in visual form.

I use miniatures, dry erase boards, terrain/dungeons tiles, and dwarven forges. While I enjoy using them, the primary reason is to manage the fact I am 50% deaf.


Now I will say it doesn't need to be elaborate. My recommendation is to start off with handouts and dry erase boards. A big dry erase board. Also if a dry erase board is used, things do not need to be drawn to scale. A lot of times just a simple line drawing is sufficient to provide visual cues.

Quote from: S'mon;1030121Well it's best not to give the players the GM's map, unless the PCs have an actual in-world map of the location.

I have no problem giving the players this kind of map.
http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Nomar_Region.pdf

While seemly detailed, it lacks information about the particulars of any one location. Taken as a whole it only has the information that could be learned by a layman going about his business after living in the region for a while.

If I want to zero into a region then I do something like this
http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Summary%20of%20the%20Halkmenan%20Rebels.pdf

I handed this out after the PCs successfully roleplayed with a NPCs who had details about the rebels operating in the region.

Or I use something like this if the PCs haven't talked to people. Note this is a earlier version of the map before I labeled it. Again like the Nomar maps, despite the detail, it doesn't tell the players much about what in any given location.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mFjy4EWzmtg/S2JmRso-NEI/AAAAAAAAAuI/9W0k5mpWaIU/s1600/Region,+Gormmah+Sm.jpg)

Finally similar to the Halkmenan Rebel PDF I created this after the players successfully roleplayed with a Dragon who lived in  a orc-infested forest. It summarizes what the dragon told them in visual form. An earlier version of this had considerably less detail.

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Quote from: Spinachcat;1030089But NOW I understand why Gronan was having trouble with his events. Organized play spoonfeeds the we-win railroad. Of course those players are useless. Fortunately, they have AL and PFS to keep them far away from my table so I'm forever thankful.

Unless you learn to subvert their expectations.

Also a general note, when I do use Dwarven Forge or dry erase boards, I am not building an entire layout either at once or over time. I only ever build or draw a limited area. At first it was because of the limited number of piece I had at the time or the size of the dry erase mat I was using. But not I do it deliberately so that if the players fail to keep track of where they are they will get lost.

From my experience in going through actual dungeons built for live action roleplaying and experience camping. In general if you pay attention is hard to get lost as you develop a general sense of the area. However it is easy to lose track of specifics without taking notes (i.e. mapping).  

For example if you are looking for a spring in a ridge that is a couple of miles away, it rarely hard to figure out where the ridge is. But finding the specific spot where the spring is can be tricky if you didn't commit to memory or took careful notes. The same with walking through a maze. You can get a general sense of how it laid out if you pay attention but finding something specific can be problematic.

The method I found that best represents the above for dungeons is only to build/draw a limited area (around 50' by 50' mostly). Then REMOVE/ERASE details as the player move further along. All they ever see visually is a small window of a much larger area. If there a dozen rooms, they are not going to get lost period. But if they are in a huge complex like Tegel Manor, or one of my levels from the Majestic Fastness then they better be mapping or they will get lost despite the presence of dwarven forge or dry erase maps.

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I have gone to each of the last 3 GaryCons and it's been a great place to play old school games. I think the biggest reason younger gamers or newer people aren't about maps is that WoTC has done almost everything they can to downplay the role of dungeons and mapping in the games. Like somebody said the game is pitched about storytelling and character development.

Quote from: estar;1030157The method I found that best represents the above for dungeons is only to build/draw a limited area (around 50' by 50' mostly). Then REMOVE/ERASE details as the player move further along. All they ever see visually is a small window of a much larger area. If there a dozen rooms, they are not going to get lost period. But if they are in a huge complex like Tegel Manor, or one of my levels from the Majestic Fastness then they better be mapping or they will get lost despite the presence of dwarven forge or dry erase maps.

This is my experience as well, though with my particular groups, I find that an even more abstract map works better.  I'll sometimes use some wooden "tiles" I cut and sanded out of paneling, to represent corridors and rooms (3" tile, usually 10-foot square).  They have a good earth tone, but are otherwise clearly abstract.  So that when I say, "this corridor is only 8 feet wide," even though we are using the usual 10-foot tiles, they note it.  I've even used dominos or wooden popsicle sticks to do the same thing.  The sticks are a great way to show that a tile room is cut off.

Basically, I started doing this because I prefer to play theatre of the mind, but if I want any attempt at mapping at all, then most of the players in the group need some minimal visual representation.  Otherwise, we waste all our time talking dimensions instead of visualizing the environment.  I only have a little dwarven forge.  Using it by itself goes the opposite way with my groups--they stop thinking about what I'm saying and focus on only what is there.  I get the same problem if I scrawl a rough map on a white board, even though the scrawl is clearly not accurate.   The dwarven forge pieces work better for me if they are used as accents on the wooden tiles, to show door, chimneys, that sort of thing.

Bottom line for these players:  They need to draw the map for it to do any good for play, but there are plenty of tricks to use to keep that moving.

The game went froma miniatures game (Chainmail) to something else and then back to a very maps and miniatures driven game (4e). 5e deliberately took a step back from requiring battle maps and reintroduced theatre of the mind play very strongly.

As the AL games need to fit into 4 hour blocks, they tend to not be dungeon crawls where maps make a difference.

You can bitch about those young uns, but I like playing D&D. I almost always DM so GaryCon was a chance to play for a change. I played a lot of AL games because I mainly run 5e these days (with an old school group that plays old school style). I also played some S&W and some DCC and Jousted in the wargaming room (which was fun). I decided to go pretty late (last 2 weeks) so did not have as much time to plan and get into an AD&D game or two.

Instead of bitching, I play with the new players (AL is meant for people without a set group or for convention play) and try to show by example why being murder hobos is not the only way. In one scenario, there were two toughs guarding a sewer enterance. The two 12/13 year olds were all about ambushing them and casually murdering them. I pointed out that we had no way of knowing they were not city employees, and my Bard stepped forward and talked our way past them. The kids liked that (they actually were bandits but we got all the XP anyways).

I would suggest that people that like older editions or OSR style play take a little time to enter a few entry level AL games and enjoy yourself and invite the players and in particular the DM to try your game later in the Con. It will teach a few new players better so when they hit your table they are better prepared and you might even have fun playing new material and meeting a few new people.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030089I did not know this. I had thought GaryCon was old school focused event.

Well, keep in mind that I haven't attended. I'd weigh others' actual experiences heavier than I would my impressions from conversations/reports. And there is still an old school presence at the con. It's just that I suspect the newer stuff (e.g. 5e/Pathfinder) has a larger presence.

QuotePhilotomy (or anyone else), do you know of any TSR/OSR conventions? Even small ones?

North Texas RPG con was very old-school focused last time I went. I haven't been in a few years, but I registered for this year's con. The "mini-cons" I mentioned are more local/invitation kind of things. There was one happening in SoCal for a while. There's also a small group of us in Texas (Austin/Houston/Dallas) that meet centrally once in a while, but it's not really a con, it's more like "hey, let's all meet up and game." There's one of those next month.

Quote from: ligedog;1030148To all the doubters Gary Con is still a great place to play old school type games.  There has been an influx of Pathfinder and 5E over the last few years but that's on top of the already existing games.  I figure that there is no single time over the three and half days where there aren't at least 3 AD&D 1st Edition games to choose from (and most of the time more than three) and that's just to start with as basically any game system you've heard of has an event.  There is also the chance to play a number of classic war games like Chainmail, Dawn Patrol etc.

FWIW, I don't doubt that there is good old school gaming to be had a GaryCon. I know there is old school gaming at GaryCon. My comments are more about the general trend with that "influx of Pathfinder and 5e" making it less old school focused. That is, it isn't "all about old school" these days, if my impression is correct. It's more "old school + a major (and growing?) new gaming presence."

Philotomy, I know the SoCal get together. Several of my players have gone. I had hoped they would grow into a small regional con.

And I agree, lots of the OSR stuff happens via invites like Meetups. We have several in the LA area. The RIFTS crew has actually developed quite a presence at the local conventions, including now having their own area.

Quote from: estar;1030154Unless you learn to subvert their expectations.

Of course, but its easy enough to just recruit good players instead. The organized play crowd is there for XP and loot for their organized play characters and rarely venture out of their zone. The crossover players who play both org play and other RPGs usually know the score so their expectations are not an issue.

Quote from: jeff37923;1030075And how do you know this, O Font of Wisdom?

He's doing his usual "Shit on fun" routine, ignore him.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030192Of course, but its easy enough to just recruit good players instead.

Sure the way to go is to recruit good players. But I been in so many different social situations in regards to tabletop roleplaying I find that to be a simplistic answer. For me it rare to have an outright asshole even at conventions and game stores. More prevalent are cases of a person that is  OK but..... (insert annoying quirk here).

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030192The organized play crowd is there for XP and loot for their organized play characters and rarely venture out of their zone. The crossover players who play both org play and other RPGs usually know the score so their expectations are not an issue.

Between running a game club in college in the 80s, small cons and larps in the 90s, I have had a lot of experience with what it takes to to run a shared world and events involving multiple gamers. While I will follow the rules as written (both in-game and out of game) I will only follow what written. Whatever unwritten social conventions, expectations, or "customs" exist I reserve to the right to ignore them in favor running a fun and interesting game. Because of this I don't get along with the people behind organized play.

Most of the time this works out to be fun and enjoyable for the players, but then there are the time when they don't know tactics or fail to work together and literally get slaughtered. Happen once when I did a session of 4th edition for a local game store. They complained but there was nothing they could do because I followed every procedure to the letter. Fourth edition combat for the most part is everybody hit point fluctuating up and down and whichever side craters first will wind up in a death spiral. For that session the PCs dicked around in the fight and one person went down and soon the rest of the party were following like dominoes.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1030072Actually, GaryCon is about a huge-ass bunch of uber nerds showing up in one place is all. Of which hardly any can role-play. And it's boring for kids to sit around at a table while their dads do basically nothing but shoot-the-shit with each other, and stare at a boring grid poster map with pieces not moving on it. Most boring board game ever is what kids think.

Hush, dear, grownups are talking.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1030084Is it?

I haven't attended any GaryCons, so my comments come from a position of no personal experience. But I remember when Pathfinder was first allowed in, and the worry expressed was that GaryCon was becoming less about old school gaming and more about following what is current/popular and "growing the con." I know those concerns were downplayed by the powers that be (it's about gaming...Gary loved gaming...it's about honoring Gary and the gaming he loved...etc). Maybe they were right. Maybe not. Again, I don't know.

I know I heard at least one attendee from this year commenting that most Pathfinder and 5e games were upstairs, and the AD&D games tended to be down in the basement or out at the ass-end of the lodge. If true (in general), that is what it is, and I get it, but it would seem to suggest that the con is more focused on servicing the "modern/current" market (and maybe "growing the con") than it is about actual old school gaming. Honoring Gary? Sure. All about old school gaming? Open question, in my mind.

I know you can find good old school gaming at GaryCon if you seek it out. I'm not saying you can't. But my impression is that "old school" is more "honored" than practiced.

My personal take on cons is "the smaller and more focused, the better." I'm not into "general geek-culture" cons. I'm not into 5e/Pathfinder/etc. I'm not looking for Star Trek video rooms or cosplay or anime. I want to go to a small gathering of gamers and sign up for games of original D&D, 1e AD&D, DGUTS, Tractics, FITS, Chainmail, golden age Avalon Hill, et cetera. Small cons and even "mini-cons" held at someone's house or at a local hotel or restaurant suit me just fine.

I'm not going to get into fucking rumormongering.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1030072Actually, GaryCon is about a huge-ass bunch of uber nerds showing up in one place is all. Of which hardly any can role-play. And it's boring for kids to sit around at a table while their dads do basically nothing but shoot-the-shit with each other, and stare at a boring grid poster map with pieces not moving on it. Most boring board game ever is what kids think.

You've obviously never gone. I had my kids attend and they have fun. So has my non gaming wife.

Also, dude, I've seen your videos, glass houses my man

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030083Do you explain this upfront to the players?

No.  Well, I said it's "Old School D&D," and I thought that was enough.  I was mistaken.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030083I mostly do Adventure Coupons at cons.  

I'm trying to give the experience of the actual early days of D&D, the game that caught our attention and spread like wildfire, BEFORE there were modules or pregens or quest coupons.  People used to walk by a game in progress, watch for five minutes, and sit down and play.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030083I do this because I have NO FUCKING PATIENCE when most players draw-as-slow-and-confused-as-fuck.

I'm a sadistic bastard and I enjoy throwing handfuls of wandering monster dice until the players are all dead.  Which happened this year.

I thought they'd get the point when they went past the "PLAYER CHARACTERS WHO STOOD AROUND WITH THEIR THUMBS UP THEIR ASSES DITHERING UNTIL THEY GOT EATEN BY A WANDERING MONSTER MEMORIAL GARDEN," but maybe not...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030210I'm not going to get into fucking rumormongering.

As someone that went there this year, it is easy to see from the online sign-up. Just look at how many AL games there are. It is a big percentage but you can also easily see that there an absolute ton of older games as well. You can focus on pretty much whatever you want to or bounce around and enjoy as much as you have time for.

I really loved the Legends of Wargamimg area (which you posted about in a different thread).just having so many different games all set up and being played in the same place was great to see.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030089I did not know this. I had thought GaryCon was old school focused event.

Bummer.

The post you quote is pure, 100% bullshit.

Quote from: Ulairi;1030158I have gone to each of the last 3 GaryCons and it's been a great place to play old school games. I think the biggest reason younger gamers or newer people aren't about maps is that WoTC has done almost everything they can to downplay the role of dungeons and mapping in the games. Like somebody said the game is pitched about storytelling and character development.

Why didn't I see you there?  I would have let you buy me a beer!

Also, FUCK giving players a map!  FUCK IT, FUCK IT, FUCK IT!  Player mapping is a vital part of Old School D&D, and if you aren't doing it, you ain't OLD SCHOOL.

Which is a BIG reason I'm getting sick of the fucking "Old School Renaissance."  They've invented shit they call Old School, instead of, you know, TALKING to Ernie Gygax or Tim Kask or Jim Ward or Dave Wesley or Dave Megarry or...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030220Also, FUCK giving players a map!  FUCK IT, FUCK IT, FUCK IT!  Player mapping is a vital part of Old School D&D, and if you aren't doing it, you ain't OLD SCHOOL.

I disagree.

I disagree because of things I read and heard about from accounts of people from back in the day like this from this pos (http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2014/06/a-game-for-stormy-saturday-and-videos.html)t using this search (http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/search?q=underworld).

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My experience is that people were all over the place with this stuff then and now.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030219Why didn't I see you there?  I would have let you buy me a beer!

I'm sure you did. I'm the white dude that looks like he could be an engineer/accountant.

Next year my man. I'm up in Whitefish Bay so the drive down is pretty easy plus we have family in Lake Geneva for the kids to stay with so I always look forward to it each year.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1030118Yeah this is simply the 5e experience system working encouraging killing things. The old xp for gold isnt great either, but it's better than xp for killing stuff.

No, actually it does not.  It's the DMs that do that.  And that's been happening since, according to my friends, it's been like since Rules Cyclopedia.  Personally, my experience says from at least AD&D2e.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030220Also, FUCK giving players a map!  FUCK IT, FUCK IT, FUCK IT!  Player mapping is a vital part of Old School D&D, and if you aren't doing it, you ain't OLD SCHOOL.

Which is a BIG reason I'm getting sick of the fucking "Old School Renaissance."  They've invented shit they call Old School, instead of, you know, TALKING to Ernie Gygax or Tim Kask or Jim Ward or Dave Wesley or Dave Megarry or...

I thought that a big part of early, true old school D&D was putting the Wilderness Survival map on the table and hex crawling and then fighting whatever monsters using basically the Chainmail combat rules, and that Blackmoor and Greyhawk grew out of that style of play, but it is possible the written and oral accounts of those days are all lies and there's was no map on the table.

I do agree that the DM describing and a player or two mapping dungeons was the default in the earlier years.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030250No, actually it does not.  It's the DMs that do that.  And that's been happening since, according to my friends, it's been like since Rules Cyclopedia.  Personally, my experience says from at least AD&D2e.

Honestly, there is some truth to this. The game rules (and what they incentivize), and the original pre-boom crowd that the game started with spread out in the greater world and said, 'here's this wonderful game that tests your inventiveness by incentivizing you minimizing your subject-to-risk while maximizing your achievement of this goal (gp=xp), and large swaths of people said, 'yes, but combat is the fun part, why would we minimize that?'

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1030251I thought that a big part of early, true old school D&D was putting the Wilderness Survival map on the table and hex crawling and then fighting whatever monsters using basically the Chainmail combat rules, and that Blackmoor and Greyhawk grew out of that style of play, but it is possible the written and oral accounts of those days are all lies and there's was no map on the table.

I do agree that the DM describing and a player or two mapping dungeons was the default in the earlier years.

In theory, hexcrawling is very much like in-dungeon mapping. Sure, you can see the hex (and basic terrain) well ahead, but you are finding out what is in the hex as you travel too it.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1030253In theory, hexcrawling is very much like in-dungeon mapping. Sure, you can see the hex (and basic terrain) well ahead, but you are finding out what is in the hex as you travel too it.

Just saying that the map was on the table, not that anyone knew what was in each hex.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1030255Just saying that the map was on the table, not that anyone knew what was in each hex.

Then I'm missing your point (and I'll be the first to admit that I take that extra paragraph of explanation). Is it because the DM is taking part in the mapping process? Then, yes, of course. Gronan is overselling certain aspects to make a point. Who is doing the actual writing down is nearly immaterial, it is the act of engaging with the map that is the point (I believe, but as I just said, I'm slow).

And as estar points out, people were all over the place. 'Ernie Gygax or Tim Kask or Jim Ward or Dave Wesley or Dave Megarry or...' are the people that Gronan got to play with BITD, and are the oldest of the old school, but the instant it left their steady hands, the books fell into every Tom, Dick and Harry's hands, and how much their gaming matched up with Gronan, Ernie, Tim, etc.'s games depends on the fidelity of communication that the books, mags, conventions, and word-of-mouth were able to create.

Quote from: Ulairi;1030247I'm sure you did. I'm the white dude that looks like he could be an engineer/accountant.

Holy cow, I just noticed this and absolutely busted a gut! :D

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1030258Then I'm missing your point (and I'll be the first to admit that I take that extra paragraph of explanation). Is it because the DM is taking part in the mapping process? Then, yes, of course. Gronan is overselling certain aspects to make a point. Who is doing the actual writing down is nearly immaterial, it is the act of engaging with the map that is the point (I believe, but as I just said, I'm slow).

And as estar points out, people were all over the place. 'Ernie Gygax or Tim Kask or Jim Ward or Dave Wesley or Dave Megarry or...' are the people that Gronan got to play with BITD, and are the oldest of the old school, but the instant it left their steady hands, the books fell into every Tom, Dick and Harry's hands, and how much their gaming matched up with Gronan, Ernie, Tim, etc.'s games depends on the fidelity of communication that the books, mags, conventions, and word-of-mouth were able to create.



Holy cow, I just noticed this and absolutely busted a gut! :D

I am just replying to the absolute statement that old school means no maps given to players and to consult with the earliest players for verification. I started in 1981, a mere babe if that is the discussion.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030220Also, FUCK giving players a map!  FUCK IT, FUCK IT, FUCK IT!  Player mapping is a vital part of Old School D&D, and if you aren't doing it, you ain't OLD SCHOOL.

I think it comes down to the situation -- I agree that a regular campaign the players ought to be mapping, but in a 4-hour convention adventure there isn't as much time to get a map right and the goal is usually to get in and do something and get out.

Mapping is also a lot of fun for the DM. I love to throw in strange stuff to mess up the mapper. :D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030210I'm not going to get into fucking rumormongering.

Well you attended, right? No need to rumormonger. Were there more old school games or more new games like Pathfinder and 5e? Were the old school games mostly in the main area, or were they more often in the basement or way out in the lodge? In your opinion, is the con "all about old school" or is there a substantial (and maybe dominant?) new game presence?

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1030265Well you attended, right? No need to rumormonger. Were there more old school games or more new games like Pathfinder and 5e? Were the old school games mostly in the main area, or were they more often in the basement or way out in the lodge? In your opinion, is the con "all about old school" or is there a substantial (and maybe dominant?) new game presence?

I was there and from my time it was an old school gaming convention. We weren't hidden away in the basement. I know that there was 5E being played but I left that was the aside and the older gamers (of all types) were the main draws. The dealer room seemed focus on old school or OSR gaming.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030250No, actually it does not.  It's the DMs that do that.  And that's been happening since, according to my friends, it's been like since Rules Cyclopedia.  Personally, my experience says from at least AD&D2e.

Well it's both. It certainly doesnt help.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1030255Just saying that the map was on the table, not that anyone knew what was in each hex.

Not in Blackmoor.  You got a piece of blank hex paper when you adventured outdoors.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1030265Well you attended, right? No need to rumormonger. Were there more old school games or more new games like Pathfinder and 5e? Were the old school games mostly in the main area, or were they more often in the basement or way out in the lodge? In your opinion, is the con "all about old school" or is there a substantial (and maybe dominant?) new game presence?

The game schedule is up, you can see for yourself.  But there was one room dedicated to some Organized Play thingamabob, don't know which.  There were games all over the place, and nobody checked your credentials.  This does not require registration:

https://tabletop.events/conventions/gary-con-x/schedule#?query=

Notice it tells you how many spaces are left, out of the possible.

I saw several games of black box Traveler -- the original black box, that is.  A ton of OSR clones and a good gob of AD&D 1.  When there is a room with 20 tables full of people playing games, who knows?  I ran Kobolds Ate My Baby -- old school or new?

But the "stuck in the basement" part is just plain bullshit.

And the single largest dedicated room was the "Legends of Wargaming," which is entirely pre-1980 miniatures wargames.

I've played and GM'd in OD&D and Basic D&D games where the GM described the rooms and corridors in terms of "you go north for 30 feet and reach a T-intersection" and "the door opens into a 30 x 30 foot room with a chimney on the north wall and another door on the eastern wall". I've also played and GM'd games where the GM draws each corridor and room as the players enter the area. When the players draw it as described by the GM, then play takes longer than when the GM draws it as the players explore the area. I have yet to experience any extra enjoyment as the player or GM when the players are the ones drawing versus the GM's doing it.

So are we still pretending that letting "RPGs tell stories" go unchallenged in all the intro sections of RPGs because it was "close enough and everyone knows you don't mean actual stories" was a good idea? :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;1030293So are we still pretending that letting "RPGs tell stories" go unchallenged in all the intro sections of RPGs because it was "close enough and everyone knows you don't mean actual stories" was a good idea? :D

...whut?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030220Which is a BIG reason I'm getting sick of the fucking "Old School Renaissance."  They've invented shit they call Old School, instead of, you know, TALKING to Ernie Gygax or Tim Kask or Jim Ward or Dave Wesley or Dave Megarry or...

At least in the earlier phases, all of these people were interviewed quite often for OSR blogs and stuff.

And let's be honest.  They repeat the same stuff over, and over, and over.  So it isn't as if people don't know their opinions.  It isn't as if any of the old TSR guys, or you, have secret knowledge not yet shared with the world because of lack of internet microphones put to your kisser.

Quote from: Spellslinging Sellsword;1030292I have yet to experience any extra enjoyment as the player or GM when the players are the ones drawing versus the GM's doing it.

I enjoyed mapping as a player. A lot. I also enjoyed drawing out my maps as the GM prior to sessions. I enjoyed that a lot. When I GMed I described rooms and corridors much as you say here:

Quote"you go north for 30 feet and reach a T-intersection" and "the door opens into a 30 x 30 foot room with a chimney on the north wall and another door on the eastern wall"

In D&D the only reason I as the GM would draw out anything for the players would be to use miniatures or dice or some other marker to show position - typically for some interesting combat. Then the room was a quick sketch. A 30'x30' room might be a simple sketched square on scrap paper or the square might have been drawn on a 10'x10' erasable grid.

I do recall one GM round about the early 1980s who drew out rooms for the players. He was an architect by day and he had drawn out his dungeon using graph paper and then he had generic rooms and corridors and some individual specific rooms all drawn out ahead of time so we could position 25mm miniatures. I missed the navigation/mapping portion of dungeon exploration and his method seemed more trouble and took more time during play to lay that stuff out than it was worth to me, but he seemed to enjoy doing all that work ahead of time and he really liked having the rooms laid out. Having him do that wasn't a deal breaker for me, but it was a negative.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030298...whut?

I think that was the obligatory post bashing the evil story gamers and their narrative conspiracy.

Quote from: Spellslinging Sellsword;1030292I've played and GM'd in OD&D and Basic D&D games where the GM described the rooms and corridors in terms of "you go north for 30 feet and reach a T-intersection" and "the door opens into a 30 x 30 foot room with a chimney on the north wall and another door on the eastern wall".

We still do it like this. Sometimes somebody will do a map sketch, but mostly not. If we get confused, the GM shows us part of his map or will correct us.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030104Mystery novels and shows.  It teaches people that nothing is as it seems.  Even when it really is as it seems.

And reality.

There are various places with secret passages and rooms that can easily be missed if no one pauses and wonders why there is a 10x10 space right there but no doors or reason for it to be there.

Example. My aunts place has a door that opens to a set of stairs that end in a blank ceiling. No hatch or such. The whole thing swings up and is fairly heavy too so a basic push on it would make one think its solid. The steps are also itty bitty so it could also be mistaken for some sort of weird cupboard.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1030118Yeah this is simply the 5e experience system working encouraging killing things. The old xp for gold isnt great either, but it's better than xp for killing stuff.

Wrong. 5e encourages EXP for things other than combat too.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1030260I am just replying to the absolute statement that old school means no maps given to players and to consult with the earliest players for verification. I started in 1981, a mere babe if that is the discussion.

I think Gronan meant Dungeon maps shouldnt be handed to players. Overland maps are a different animal usually. But not allways. It is very dependant on if the region is known or not.

Contrast Keep on the borderlands area map with Isle of Dreads for example. In isle of dread the PCs are handed a mostly blank map a-la Source of the Nile.

(http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/map_images/429106/IMG_0001.jpg)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030062I think the issue is their perception that the only way to get XP is to kill stuff.

Having an open game table, my last two sessions have had three people who've never played AD&D1e before. All of them imagined they'd have to kill X creatures to level up. My two experienced players explained, "No, it's treasure." They'll need a few sessions to understand it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1030326Having an open game table, my last two sessions have had three people who've never played AD&D1e before. All of them imagined they'd have to kill X creatures to level up. My two experienced players explained, "No, it's treasure." They'll need a few sessions to understand it.

But they likely played, or have seen played computer RPGs, and a lot of them still use the Monster as XP model.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1030315We still do it like this. Sometimes somebody will do a map sketch, but mostly not. If we get confused, the GM shows us part of his map or will correct us.

Honestly, that sounds like no fun to me.  The tension created by the uncertainty of your situation is half the fun.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030337Honestly, that sounds like no fun to me.  The tension created by the uncertainty of your situation is half the fun.

This before... or after you realize you have mapped right through a hidden teleporter and now your map makes no sense?

(First session. Exactly this happened. But the party was glad I was mapping and pointed out the discrepancy as it alerted the group that something had happened.)

Quote from: Omega;1030318Wrong. 5e encourages EXP for things other than combat too.

The bulk of your xp still comes from killing things though, the other amounts are minor (going from memory)

Quote from: Ulairi;1030268I was there and from my time it was an old school gaming convention. We weren't hidden away in the basement...The dealer room seemed focus on old school or OSR gaming.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030277A ton of OSR clones and a good gob of AD&D 1...But the "stuck in the basement" part is just plain bullshit. And the single largest dedicated room was the "Legends of Wargaming," which is entirely pre-1980 miniatures wargames.

All that sounds good, to me. Glad to hear it.

"I've played this game the same way for forty years. I understand that there have been a whole slew of new editions since that time, but I automatically expect people brought up on one of those newer editions (with hundreds of supporting products) to immediately understand the way the game I played forty years ago is meant to be played, and I'm pissed that they don't."

Did I get that right?

But here's the thing, if they are signing up to play the game "the old way", you need to anticipate that your players will have no real concept of what that means. And maybe meet them a little bit along the way. The projector sounds like a good idea.

My experience with "the old way" has been mixed, albeit the sample has been limited. Two games which reminded me I have little interest in that kind of move / search / kill / repeat / yawn game...a third that nominally had those same traits, but which had me and the rest of the players breathless and white-knuckled the whole game.

The fourth was a session of Torchbearer which I think sorta counts. I struggle with the ruleset, but I love the tension when it falls into place.

Quote from: Omega;1030342This before... or after you realize you have mapped right through a hidden teleporter and now your map makes no sense?

(First session. Exactly this happened. But the party was glad I was mapping and pointed out the discrepancy as it alerted the group that something had happened.)

A similar reaction occurs when I use Dwarven Forge. I will keeping building  after the teleport like nothing happen and eventually the party catches on that something isn't quite right. That after point X they should be near to where they started.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030327But they likely played, or have seen played computer RPGs, and a lot of them still use the Monster as XP model.

Yes. One kept saying. "and in Dark Souls -".

He's young. It's not his fault.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1030363Yes. One kept saying. "and in Dark Souls -".

He's young. It's not his fault.

No it is his fault. Or so say the lyrics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdm0Yt7BFI).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030277The game schedule is up, you can see for yourself.  
https://tabletop.events/conventions/gary-con-x/schedule#?query=

Thank you Gronan. I will check out the games!

Quote from: CRKrueger;1030293So are we still pretending that letting "RPGs tell stories" go unchallenged in all the intro sections of RPGs because it was "close enough and everyone knows you don't mean actual stories" was a good idea? :D

No.

No we do not.

But I think you meant to post in another thread.

Or you should start a thread just about that.

Quote from: estar;1030243[ATTACH=CONFIG]2320[/ATTACH]
My experience is that people were all over the place with this stuff then and now.

I love using wooden blocks for dungeons. They are just too heavy to drag to cons.

Several times at the hardware store I've wondered if making my own from the lightest wood would be worth the effort.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030213I'm trying to give the experience of the actual early days of D&D, the game that caught our attention and spread like wildfire, BEFORE there were modules or pregens or quest coupons.

That sounds like a good game description.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030213I'm a sadistic bastard and I enjoy throwing handfuls of wandering monster dice until the players are all dead.

Me too! Why else be the GM?

But...did you explain how wandering monsters work in OD&D?

I always do. Wandering monsters don't exist in WotC editions. It's a new concept for many players.

Before the game, I explain how they are invading the lair of monsters. It's their turf. They see in the dark. You're bringing a torch. They eat fresh, live meat and you're on the menu. The smart monsters know their lair intimately, even the dumb monsters know where the traps are. You, my dear adventurers, know nothing of their lair.

That catches their attention. Usually somebody asks, "but we're the heroes, right?"

And I answer, "Who knows? If you conquer the dungeon, you're the heroes. Otherwise, you're snacks. Let's see what happens."

It's more fun to educate them, then...devour them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030220Player mapping is a vital part of Old School D&D, and if you aren't doing it, you ain't OLD SCHOOL.

Explain.

I know some players enjoy it, but why is it vital that the players do the mapping?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030372Explain.

I know some players enjoy it, but why is it vital that the players do the mapping?

Hell, even I can answer that one. :)

Exploration requires uncertainty - if you know what's out there, you're not exploring, you're sightseeing. Having the players do the mapping keeps a level of uncertainty active even after the players have mapped an area. It also keeps the players more active outside of combat, thus more engaged in the game.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030372I love using wooden blocks for dungeons. They are just too heavy to drag to cons.

Several times at the hardware store I've wondered if making my own from the lightest wood would be worth the effort.

IKEA. They make a set of 100 birch blocks that work just fine for walls, bridges, and all sorts of stuff. The box is pretty light, and fits in a briefcase. I have two, and use them all the time for games. (Photos on the Photobucket page) Pretty cheap, too.

Players doing their own mapping achieves a few things:

1) It keeps them immersed in perceiving the world through the eyes of their characters. It's not the DM handing the players a game aid at the table, it's the characters drawing a map based on what they see in the game world.

2) It introduces errors and uncertainty in the map. Which is as it should be when you're mapping a labyrinth by lantern-light under unrelenting threat from traps and attacks by foes.

3) It makes it clear that mapping is a player responsibility, not the DM's. It's the players who need to put in the effort to figure out where they are in the dungeon and where they're going and why, rather than passively react to the DM's mapping.

Quote from: Haffrung;1030411Players doing their own mapping achieves a few things:

1) It keeps them immersed in perceiving the world through the eyes of their characters. It's not the DM handing the players a game aid at the table, it's the characters drawing a map based on what they see in the game world.

2) It introduces errors and uncertainty in the map. Which is as it should be when you're mapping a labyrinth by lantern-light under unrelenting threat from traps and attacks by foes.

3) It makes it clear that mapping is a player responsibility, not the DM's. It's the players who need to put in the effort to figure out where they are in the dungeon and where they're going and why, rather than passively react to the DM's mapping.

Thank you. I was pondering how to formulate a response to the curious (such as Spinachcat).

QuoteI know some players enjoy it, but why is it vital that the players do the mapping?

First and foremost, it isn't 'vital' in any traditional sense, --  any more than if you did everything else old-school, but took out gp=xp, then the game would magically lose the rest of its' old-schoolitude, -- it is just another practice that was often done at the time and is encouraged to recapture the feel, but also sets up a small cascade of incentives and best practices which helped make old school gaming what it was.

I think Haffrung's list is a good explanation. I'll do it in reverse order:

• #3 mapping gives players a sense of ownership over the situation. That by itself isn't required, but some form of ownership or investment is. For those of us not trying to tell a story with our game*, this is part of the immersion that makes the game more than moving a piece on a dynamic game board (even though yes, technically speaking what you are doing is drawing out that dynamic game board). If you are drawing the walls or cliffs or huts your characters walks through, you are bringing that world to life. Obviously you can have the DM do it, or not do it, if you're doing theater of the mind (that's mostly how we did it after the first 2-3 years, up until the end of my original stretch of TSR gaming), but there is real value in this practice and the gaming experience it engenders.

*You might have noted I don't routinely insult people who invest heavily in the story of their characters. That's because I consider it a completely valid style of game I simply have no interest in (albeit I do feel if the DM changes outcomes based upon how it effects the narrative, it is less of a 'game').

• #2 uncertainty is the suspense of the game. This one is pretty self-evident, and there's not much more to it, but it's real. Obviously this is very group dependent and also a DM and group just trying out this method (again or for the first time) is going to have some growing pains (and it's not necessarily the players who are screwing up). So if a player says, "okay, I move South off the platform," you should probably say, "South of the platform is a 60' drop, did we screw up the mapping?," not, "you fall to your demise." for quite some time. Outside of that tomfoolery, uncertainty is the flickering of torchlight, and the part of a suspense scenario where you don't actually have to throw the hidden horror around every corner to get the suspense effect, simply because you might.
  
  
• #1 is the same as #3. Immersion and ownership/a sense of ownership are what make the game 'real' for gamers who aren't telling a story. The characters are real not because they are characters in fiction, but because they are participants in a world the player playing them can invest in/pseudo-believe-in.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030372But...did you explain how wandering monsters work in OD&D?

I always do. Wandering monsters don't exist in WotC editions. It's a new concept for many players. ...

Wandering Monsters do indeed exist in 5e.  The concept is introduced in the starter set module Lost Mines of Phandelver too, with the proviso that too many random encounters can become tedious so use them sparingly. Lol.  Want fewer encounters?  Quit putzing around and get  a move on!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1030326Having an open game table, my last two sessions have had three people who've never played AD&D1e before. All of them imagined they'd have to kill X creatures to level up. My two experienced players explained, "No, it's treasure." They'll need a few sessions to understand it.

In a lot of ways, XP for treasure is brilliant.  It matches the motivation of a big chunk of historical/fantasy adventurer types (to get rich and famous -- works for Conan, John Hawkwood, Blackbeard, and Sir Richard Burton).  It creates high stakes and allows for completely unfair and unknowable monsters.  The Beholder doesn't have to be a fair encounter that eats up 25% of resources if the whole point is not to be even noticed by the evil death eye.  It isn't the only way to play,  but it incents good behavior.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1030345The bulk of your xp still comes from killing things though, the other amounts are minor (going from memory)

Yeah, that's my memory too.  Ad hoc XP seemed to be the major thrust of it and you are emulating combat encounters in the build of these.  Obviously you could make most of the XP about completeing quests.  But that is tinkering, which is a good feautre  and not a bug.  But it doesn't change that reading the 5E rulebook gave me the impression that fighting was how you typically advanced in level.  I am almost preferring a Top Secret style of XP, where a clean raid (fewer deaths) means more XP.  As most societies would start having series problems with a crew of pyschopaths, even if they are only killing "the other" and not the locals.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1030363Yes. One kept saying. "and in Dark Souls -".

He's young. It's not his fault.

Dark Souls has souls as treasure though...

Quote from: RandyB;1030403Hell, even I can answer that one. :)

Exploration requires uncertainty - if you know what's out there, you're not exploring, you're sightseeing. Having the players do the mapping keeps a level of uncertainty active even after the players have mapped an area. It also keeps the players more active outside of combat, thus more engaged in the game.

* sniff * You've brought a tear to this crusty old bastard's eye, lad.  Well done.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030372But...did you explain how wandering monsters work in OD&D?

Yes.  I explain that if you are yammering around the table, your characters are running their mouths down in the dungeon.  I explain that the longer you spend making up your mind, the more wandering monsters.  And I even say things like "Because of all the time you've spent dithering, a wandering monster comes" or "While you're standing around yelling at each other down in the dungeon, a wandering monster comes".  Some people apparently just can't be helped.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030463Yes.  I explain that if you are yammering around the table, your characters are running their mouths down in the dungeon.  I explain that the longer you spend making up your mind, the more wandering monsters.  And I even say things like "Because of all the time you've spent dithering, a wandering monster comes" or "While you're standing around yelling at each other down in the dungeon, a wandering monster comes".  Some people apparently just can't be helped.

That's why a healthy dose of horrific death possibilities is the best teaching instrument.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030462* sniff * You've brought a tear to this crusty old bastard's eye, lad.  Well done.

I'm likely not that much younger than you. I started with the Holmes blue book back in '78... Thanks, nonetheless.

Quote from: RandyB;1030403Hell, even I can answer that one. :)

Exploration requires uncertainty - if you know what's out there, you're not exploring, you're sightseeing. Having the players do the mapping keeps a level of uncertainty active even after the players have mapped an area. It also keeps the players more active outside of combat, thus more engaged in the game.

Tell me what in the big 12.5 mile hex then.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2324[/ATTACH]

For me that map is what I choose to do instead of saying

QuoteYou see mountains with foothills to the south with a large stream running north. Nestled in a foothills is a small like 1 mile long and a 1/2 mile wide that the stream enters in on the south and exits to the north.

I opt to do that in part because I can draw decent maps, but also because it more effective form of communication for me given the fact I am 50% deaf. In addition my style was influenced by the ridiculous mapping rules I encounter with AD&D and Judges Guild which was at total odds with my experience hiking and camping in the wilderness with my family and as a boy scout. One's situational awareness of the surrounding terrain was much greater than what either gave credit for.

For these reasons I opted to do something different from the moment I started running tabletop roleplaying campaigns than handing the players a blank grid. If anything doing that encouraged my players to explore more to see what lies amid mountains, hills, and plains that the hex map wasn't showing. The same when I give something like the Dearthwood map which is handed AFTER talking to a being, a dragon, who gave them the lay of the land. The information isn't a gazetteer of all thing Dearthwood, it is drawn and told from the dragon's point of view. Thus slanted and distorted due the Dragon's point of view.

Now when it comes to underground mazes or specific kinds of terrain (like being in a mountain valley) then the balance changes. The field of view shrink, and the players better be mapping if they are to figure out the lay of the land. But then again, there are those who don't need to map because they have a intuitive grasp of spatial relationship.

My point is there is more than one way to have the players explore than handing them a blank grid (hex or square) and giving them a verbal description. That the alternatives are not "coddling" or "spoon feeding" players. What works consistently is a balance.  Keeping in mind the player's interests (to a point), and what details they would have if they were actually standing there.

Again, both approaches are needed it not a case of one or the other. And for different groups it will be a different balance. But whatever the result turns out to be it not any more "Old School" or less than sitting down with a blank grid.

Gronan, if your players diddled around after learning about wandering monsters, they earned the smackdown.

Especially when they hear you clattering the dice.

Quote from: RandyB;1030403Exploration requires uncertainty - if you know what's out there, you're not exploring, you're sightseeing. Having the players do the mapping keeps a level of uncertainty active even after the players have mapped an area. It also keeps the players more active outside of combat, thus more engaged in the game.

You don't even lose uncertainty if you hand the players the map of the dungeon. They don't know what or who is within those rooms or halls. They may have a layout, but not the contents or the threats so there's plenty of uncertainty.

I map out room by room (based on their vision / range / magic, etc) because I want to show what the CHARACTERS see so the PLAYER can make choices. If I allow the player to map and they botch the mapping, then we are tweaking the PC's perception to the player's badly done map.

And I have zero problem keeping player attention on the game. I run OD&D as survival horror. Scary shit is all around you. Just because the DM drew the zone you are in doesn't mean the zone is safe in the slightest. My empty rooms are bad news. Who knows if the damn thing is really empty? That last "empty room" ate the cleric!!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1030406IKEA. They make a set of 100 birch blocks that work just fine for walls, bridges, and all sorts of stuff. The box is pretty light, and fits in a briefcase. I have two, and use them all the time for games. (Photos on the Photobucket page) Pretty cheap, too.

You rock!!! Thank you!!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030463Yes.  I explain that if you are yammering around the table, your characters are running their mouths down in the dungeon.  I explain that the longer you spend making up your mind, the more wandering monsters.  And I even say things like "Because of all the time you've spent dithering, a wandering monster comes" or "While you're standing around yelling at each other down in the dungeon, a wandering monster comes".  Some people apparently just can't be helped.

But is there an (ecological) reason that the monsters are wandering around in the first place?

IIRC, a lot of the subsequent development of (TSR) modules was a pushback against dungeons that made zero sense.

Quote from: Motorskills;1030511But is there an (ecological) reason that the monsters are wandering around in the first place?

In mind, yes. Dungeons with orcs in them have wandering orcs. Dungeons of undead have wandering undead. And so on.

But if the players complain it makes no sense, I would just say, "it is indeed a mystery, how will you go about finding out the cause? perhaps you could keep making noise until every wandering monster in the dungeon comes to fight you, and ask them?"

Quote from: Psikerlord;1030345The bulk of your xp still comes from killing things though, the other amounts are minor (going from memory)

You can get the same amount of EXP for avoiding, negotiating, whatevering. Thats in the DMG.

There's one thing I don't like about player mapping...
how to describe this:

Spoiler

(https://rpgcharacters.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/erdea-manor-depths-keyed-web.jpg)

Or any map with weird angles, a mix of caverns and construction, etc.

I usually draw on one of those Chessex maps and erase if I need to.  If they want their own copy of the map, they need to make it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1030539I usually draw on one of those Chessex maps and erase if I need to.  If they want their own copy of the map, they need to make it.

Like the old adage "A picture is worth a thousand words".

Which brings another point, while OD&D is not a detail heavy simulation of medieval combat and life, it partly rests on that foundation. Stuff that make sense to do in medieval combat should make sense to do in OD&D.

The same with player mapping, it is a visual experiences. Players are not wandering around an underground with some loudspeaker droning "Now you see a 10 by 10 room with a orc guarding a treasure chest with two other corridors. The opening for one is to left of the orc, and the other is to the right.".

No the players SEE the situation. So showing the area on a map via a notepad, dry erase board, tiles, or dwarven force style pieces, is just as realistic as crushing the party if they stupidly allow a group of hobgoblins to flank them. What not as realistic is leaving EVERYTHING up as they work their way through. The only thing that should be on display are what can be seen.

Quote from: estar;1030543The only thing that should be on display are what can be seen.

Yeah, that's why I like the lighting options for Roll20.  The players only see what's visible based on lighting.  It can make for a creepy environment, especially if you set the vision to only 180 in front of them, so they actually have to turn to see the spiders creeping up on them.  One player said it made him feel paranoid and claustrophobic as fuck...he loved it. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;1030546Yeah, that's why I like the lighting options for Roll20.  The players only see what's visible based on lighting.  It can make for a creepy environment, especially if you set the vision to only 180 in front of them, so they actually have to turn to see the spiders creeping up on them.  One player said it made him feel paranoid and claustrophobic as fuck...he loved it. :D

Nice! Where it really paid off for me was when the PCs got separated and couldn't find each other. One of the PCs got ambushed by goblins and went down. We were using D&D 5th edition at the time so having the entire party trying to search the place while the PC is making his death rolls, surviving goblins lurking around every corner generated a lot of tension. (The PC died).

Also the demi-human players really appreciated their darkvision/infravision ability.

A tip for when using dynamic lighting. If the PC isn't carrying a light I set his vision to be a 3 ft radius the dim light set to 3 feet as well. This creates a tiny bubble of visibility around the PC and sufficiently represents them bumping around the dark without. Otherwise the map is completely dark for the player and a real hassle to manage for me as the referee.

Quote from: estar;1030471My point is there is more than one way to have the players explore than handing them a blank grid (hex or square) and giving them a verbal description. That the alternatives are not "coddling" or "spoon feeding" players. What works consistently is a balance.  Keeping in mind the player's interests (to a point), and what details they would have if they were actually standing there.

Again, both approaches are needed it not a case of one or the other. And for different groups it will be a different balance. But whatever the result turns out to be it not any more "Old School" or less than sitting down with a blank grid.

First and foremost, just ignore people on this site talking about gamestyles and using terms like "coddling" or "spoon feeding*". This is the best site I've found for advice from people who are elbows deep in actual gaming and the advice is great, but yes there is plenty of posturing around the idea that those that play differently are being candy asses in some way or another.
*EXCEPTION: the actual use, in this thread, of the phrase spoon feeding is a notable exception. The only reference is spinachcat calling convention play spoonfed railroads. I haven't been to a con in decades, but I imagine that with strangers and such a limited timeframe, that can really happen. The reference seems plausible.

Anyways. The primary thrust of this thread, so far as I can gather, is that making players do the mapping is an avenue of investment and engagement. You clearly have found an alternative avenue of engagement. One that is badass in its' own way. One that the rest of us, with less time and outdoors knowledge can't do. Presumably your players are on board to, and if everyone in the game is having fun, then there is no problem.

Quote from: Motorskills;1030511But is there an (ecological) reason that the monsters are wandering around in the first place?
IIRC, a lot of the subsequent development of (TSR) modules was a pushback against dungeons that made zero sense.

In a word, no. D&D dungeons, as a whole, don't make sense. Not with regards to the inhabitants, nor with anything else. In particular once one realizes how expensive building things (particularly underground) was before the advent of modern construction and energy production. Yes, TSR occasionally (and WotC with greater frequency) introduced reasons for things in their modules, and that helps for people who need that. But as a whole, the dungeons are there so that the PCs can explore them. Just like the prices of goods are based around PCs buying them and in some editions commoners should not be able to sustain themselves (because the economic system is not set up with that in mind). Whether or not this a problem for someone (verisimilitude and the like) is going to be up to the individual. But to the question, "ut is there an (ecological) reason...," the answer is, "no. not at all."

Quote from: CRKrueger;1030539There's one thing I don't like about player mapping...
how to describe this:
I usually draw on one of those Chessex maps and erase if I need to.  If they want their own copy of the map, they need to make it.

I would probably, when describing the corridor immediately to the right of room #66, say "this next corridor is actually only about 60' long, headed southeast, but make it 120' straight east to ease in your mapping..." and then pretend everything works on a square grid or the like.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1030553First and foremost, just ignore people on this site talking about gamestyles and using terms like "coddling" or "spoon feeding*". This is the best site I've found for advice from people who are elbows deep in actual gaming and the advice is great, but yes there is plenty of posturing around the idea that those that play differently are being candy asses in some way or another.

Gronan complaint is grounded in actual play. He making a complaint about the skills of the player at a game he ran. What I object to is the idea that handing a group a blank grid and expecting them to construct a map of the dungeon from a verbal description is a hallmark of old school. Granted I started in the late 70s, and he started in the late 60s. But my experience in my neck of the woods in rural NW PA is that there were those who had props and dioramas (primarily from miniature wargaming) and used them as part of a D&D campaign. While it was no where near as common as theater of the mind, it was part of hobby.

The 40 years later I am reading about folks like M.A.R Barker and his Tekumel setup that would put my rather extensive collection of Dwarven Forge to shame. This includes setup that represented sections of Jakalla (?) Underworld Barker's "megadungeon".

So I stated a contrary view to the idea that mapping on a blank grid from verbal description is a pinnacle of "old school" gaming. Certainly building Dwarven Forge setup yourself is more old school than buying them like I did. But using them? Both are equally "old school" in my view.

Now having said that, in my campaigns players still need to learn to map because I only ever had up a section of the total map if it over a certain size (a dozen room plus). In my recent campaigns, this occurred when they were exploring Tegel Manor and my own "mega dungeon" the Majestic Fastness. And yes the wandering monster check went up. And the players eventually caught on that this was happening while they were taking the time to map. They adapted by making less accurate maps that were quicker to draw.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1030539There's one thing I don't like about player mapping...
how to describe this:

Spoiler

(https://rpgcharacters.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/erdea-manor-depths-keyed-web.jpg)

Or any map with weird angles, a mix of caverns and construction, etc.

I usually draw on one of those Chessex maps and erase if I need to.  If they want their own copy of the map, they need to make it.

The ambiguity is part of the POINT.

"Old School" is whatever I say it is, at least in this thread.

Gronan, did both Gary and Dave use player mapping exclusively? When did they feel it appropriate to draw out an area as the DM?

And I fully agree that when you talk Old School, you are talking Original School. Which is an important distinction because once the game left the founders' tables, many permutations occurred in the wild. Thus, I fully acknowledge there would be differences in game play between "Old School" and "Original School".


As for the wandering monster discussion...

When designing dungeons (or any adventures), I do a 1D6 for the wandering monster list for the area. Then I muse upon the 6 wandering encounters for why they are wandering. Nothing wanders in my world for no reason. It's patrolling, its moving from point A to B, its hunting, its fleeing, its lost and scared, its cursed to travel, its been following the PCs for good reasons / bad reasons / curiosity, or whatever makes sense for the locale.

As I've said before, I run OD&D as survival horror. Horror is an offshoot of the mystery genre. Thus, there is mystery behind most everything and its up to the PCs to discover (or not) the reasons behind things that confound them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030576The ambiguity is part of the POINT.

So suddenly my character's eyes have a fog over them where they can't see clearly?

If  a referee wants ambiguity than don't draw to scale. If the players want precision then take the time in-game to pace it out and risk the wandering monster checks.

A rule of thumb is that areas further away should be drawn smaller.

Otherwise just use a dry erase or a note pad and draw the damn shape of the room so everybody is on the same page without having to play 20 questions.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1030539There's one thing I don't like about player mapping...
how to describe this:

Spoiler

(https://rpgcharacters.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/erdea-manor-depths-keyed-web.jpg)

Or any map with weird angles, a mix of caverns and construction, etc.

I usually draw on one of those Chessex maps and erase if I need to.  If they want their own copy of the map, they need to make it.

I think that's a pretty major point, and one I agree with.

I'll buy that there are some people that enjoy it. But I don't particularly enjoy the process of going back and forth verbally describing map shapes.

Also, I don't think it represents what the characters are doing. The characters aren't listening to someone describe a room in words - they just glance around and see it with their eyes. In one second, they'll have more information than what might take the GM twenty minutes to describe verbally. What particularly bugs me is if the players have a bunch of questions for the GM about what they see - and the GM treats it as if the PCs are standing around for a while doing nothing.

If you enjoy drawing maps from verbal description, then that's great. But I don't think it's a flaw if other people don't.

I like the idea of mapping, but it seems like it would slow the game to a crawl as every room turns into a game of 20 questions with the GM to nail down exactly how it is shaped.

And that's also at odds with what the characters themselves experience. Obviously they can see the room directly, so why would there be any ambiguity?

So perhaps having the GM draw a map and then the player record it for later might be the best way to handle it, then represent an abstract amount of time, say, 10 minutes, spent doing it.

Quote from: estar;1030607So suddenly my character's eyes have a fog over them where they can't see clearly?

We tried live dungeon adventures with actual lanterns in an area with lots of rooms and passages.  You can't see shit.  Even a correctly done coat of arms isn't clearly visible until less than 10 feet away.

And you're measuring things in paces.  Be glad I'm describing them in feet.

Playing 20 questions to get the exact size of the room would be hilarous.  I wonder how many random monster checks it will take to get people to roughly sketch the room and move on?

The "foot" wasn't even standardized in the middle ages.  The whining in this thread is hilarious.  Now excuse me while I slake my thirst on your bitter tears.

And the answer is "I'd rather play a game with three people who get it, and enjoy the game, then pander to players who don't like the style."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030622And the answer is "I'd rather play a game with three people who get it, and enjoy the game, then pander to players who don't like the style."

You know, this answer applies to so much in our hobby.

I like maps, not necessarily enjoy mapping, but I like getting a dungeon mapped out.  And it is fun going over the emerging map and knowing that there must be a secret door at certain spots.  When you're finished with a dungeon, it's pretty cool to see where you went and how the layout "forms".

Quote from: jeff37923;1030626You know, this answer applies to so much in our hobby.

Yes.  There are a lot of ways to play.  Nobody has to like my way, but I rented this particular room so I could bitch and moan a while.

Quote from: RunningLaser;1030627I like maps, not necessarily enjoy mapping, but I like getting a dungeon mapped out.  And it is fun going over the emerging map and knowing that there must be a secret door at certain spots.  When you're finished with a dungeon, it's pretty cool to see where you went and how the layout "forms".

And as OD&D was originally conceived as written, it's a game of gradually revealing a hidden map.  That's what the game is written for, and viewing it as a game about that particular thing, it works really well.

And for those who don't like that, other games and other editions do different things, which is peachy.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030620We tried live dungeon adventures with actual lanterns in an area with lots of rooms and passages.  You can't see shit.  Even a correctly done coat of arms isn't clearly visible until less than 10 feet away.

And you're measuring things in paces.  Be glad I'm describing them in feet.

I participated in, ran, and organized boffer LARPS events for a decade including events held inside Laurel Caverns in SW PA, and events that had dungeons constructed inside of warehouse and other large buildings. So been there, done that. I can give specifics but in the interest of brevity, it all amounts to saying it depends.

And the reason I made a note of boffer LARPS is that unlike the vampire folks and the stuff run at the cons, boffer LARPS are like a sport and uses as much live-action as it can be safely done. We have to use physical waivers and carry sport related insurance because of that.

Quote from: jhkim;1030614What particularly bugs me is if the players have a bunch of questions for the GM about what they see - and the GM treats it as if the PCs are standing around for a while doing nothing.

I consider time frozen while I draw/place what the PCs see and while I describe stuff, and the time freeze continues if players have an visual perception questions that would make sense from their initial viewing. Exploring / searching is actions, but "first impressions" are freely given.

I assume competence and within the area of light, I am happy to provide quick descriptions and in the shadows, I am happy to provide inferences and fear.

Diddling around is when rooms are checked over and over or when players (and thus their PCs) engage in lengthy (often noisy) discussions.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030620We tried live dungeon adventures with actual lanterns in an area with lots of rooms and passages.  You can't see shit.  Even a correctly done coat of arms isn't clearly visible until less than 10 feet away.

MUST HEAR MORE ABOUT THIS!!!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030631And as OD&D was originally conceived as written, it's a game of gradually revealing a hidden map.  That's what the game is written for, and viewing it as a game about that particular thing, it works really well.

I don't think I've ever heard it described like that.

Player only mapping makes 1000% sense in that context.

Quote from: estar;1030645I participated in, ran, and organized boffer LARPS events for a decade including events held inside Laurel Caverns in SW PA, and events that had dungeons constructed inside of warehouse and other large buildings. So been there, done that. I can give specifics but in the interest of brevity, it all amounts to saying it depends.

MUST HEAR MOAR!

Please start a thread of Live Dungeons and your experiences. I've done a few and I'd love to chat about them too!

Well, it's a chapter in my someday-book...

One more taste for free.  Chirine was "reffing" the thing and we eventually wandered down into the basement.  He pointed at several heaps of miscellaneous "basement junk" in the corners and said "The Coca Cola bottle caps are gold."  After about ten minutes I was down on my hands and knees.  I'd taken off my great helm and I was using a small knife to stir the junk.  The lantern was right next to my head and my face was about 6" off the ground, and it was still hard to tell the Coke caps from the Sprite and Hamms Beer caps, and the old washers.

After a few more minutes I said, "Forget about magic or monsters... just stick an African black scorpion in this pile of shit, and I'm dead."  (I meant African fat-tailed.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fattail_scorpion

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030682Well, it's a chapter in my someday-book...

One more taste for free.  Chirine was "reffing" the thing and we eventually wandered down into the basement.  He pointed at several heaps of miscellaneous "basement junk" in the corners and said "The Coca Cola bottle caps are gold."  After about ten minutes I was down on my hands and knees.  I'd taken off my great helm and I was using a small knife to stir the junk.  The lantern was right next to my head and my face was about 6" off the ground, and it was still hard to tell the Coke caps from the Sprite and Hamms Beer caps, and the old washers.

After a few more minutes I said, "Forget about magic or monsters... just stick an African black scorpion in this pile of shit, and I'm dead."  (I meant African fat-tailed.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fattail_scorpion

Me, I laughed until I cried once we turned the lights back on. I killed all of them, which - I suppose - would make it my one and only TPK until my next one in 2015 or so. I still have the lanterns and shinai, too; anyone up for a go at this? I have, in the intervening decades, stocked up on nasty little rubber critters so Gronan can have his scorpion... :)

Quote from: estar;1030645I participated in, ran, and organized boffer LARPS events for a decade including events held inside Laurel Caverns in SW PA, and events that had dungeons constructed inside of warehouse and other large buildings. So been there, done that. I can give specifics but in the interest of brevity, it all amounts to saying it depends.

And the reason I made a note of boffer LARPS is that unlike the vampire folks and the stuff run at the cons, boffer LARPS are like a sport and uses as much live-action as it can be safely done. We have to use physical waivers and carry sport related insurance because of that.

This. Lantern design gets to be really important, so that the backscatter doesn't kill your night vision.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1030685Me, I laughed until I cried once we turned the lights back on. I killed all of them, which - I suppose - would make it my one and only TPK until my next one in 2015 or so. I still have the lanterns and shinai, too; anyone up for a go at this? I have, in the intervening decades, stocked up on nasty little rubber critters so Gronan can have his scorpion... :)

That sounds hilarious. How did they get TPK'd?

One by one.  Mostly  it was "Okay, that would have killed YOU" and in the next room "That would have killed HIM" and in the basement "Okay, the scorpion just killed ME."

And we haven't even gotten to the Fane of the Ancient Pot Roast yet.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030576The ambiguity is part of the POINT.

Oh I know, I've done PC mapping with only going to drawing when there's a fight.  I also know if you had ten people walk through a building drawing maps you'd get 10 different maps, some of them ridiculously different.

One of the best PC mappers I had used a white paper, no lines on it and had his own shorthand for how things connected.  It wasn't as useful for playing 'spot the hidden room' but no one ever got lost.

Another halfling rogue was responsible for more than a few extra wandering monster encounters due to his mapping, but he made a brisk business selling detailed maps.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1030685Me, I laughed until I cried once we turned the lights back on. I killed all of them, which - I suppose - would make it my one and only TPK until my next one in 2015 or so. I still have the lanterns and shinai, too; anyone up for a go at this? I have, in the intervening decades, stocked up on nasty little rubber critters so Gronan can have his scorpion... :)

If you ever organize a group, I am absolutely in. I was just mentioning to my group how we never 'do' stuff like we say we would. The rest of them have shooting range days every couple months, but we never do the paintball or hiking or canoeing trips we used to. 75% or so of them having 18- age kids certainly being a factor.

Where'd you do this? I assume the Mississippi River cliff caves were locked up even back then. Most of the old warehouses now are microbreweries (which would be hilarious as a site for a dungeon crawl, but probably a health code violation for them).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030630Yes.  There are a lot of ways to play.  Nobody has to like my way, but I rented this particular room so I could bitch and moan a while.

And I love hearing about it, and it's a great idea to make a thread just to do so. I should make one in the main section about my moving woes. However,

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030621The whining in this thread is hilarious.  Now excuse me while I slake my thirst on your bitter tears.

People are raising legitimate questions, not whining. Not everything about this actually makes sense, certainly not to someone coming to it cold without their questions being answered. You don't have to do anything, including answer. But pretending the reservations others are showing is petulant whining is a disservice to yourself alone.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1030687This. Lantern design gets to be really important, so that the backscatter doesn't kill your night vision.

There was a couple of fails in that department. Typically we had 30 to 40 people attend an events with about a 1/3 of them involved in running the event the other 2/3 playing PCs. So there typically half-dozen parties running around trying different things. Some do a good job of it. Others well their "spirits" tend to arrive at the local healers guild a lot.

During the cave event there were parties that got mauled by the NPC monsters because of poor marching order and lighting arrangement. You had to keep an eye out in all directions.

For my part, the last time I played in the caves, I hung behind the party. Based on my experiences the previous times, the group needed somebody to keep "overwatch". Despite my deafness and not wearing my hearing aids (fear of getting them wet), the cave acoustics were perfect for me to hear movement (some frequencies I am near 100%) .

By doing this I was able to see the "monsters" approach the PCs when combat broke out. Because everything was backlit from my point of view I was able to enter combat where it helped the group the most.  Was it risky? Sure but not as bad you think because I was behind the party as they were sweeping things forward. In D&D if there enough party member I would have two hanging back due to fact that unllike human being pretending monsters, in D&D there are monster that can see in total darkness. One of us should survive the initial rounds to warn the party of an attack from behind.

One thing I learn over the decade playing LARPS that there is no one set of tactics that "wins". The key thing to learn is situational awareness. Beyond that it always a case of "it depends". There was a set of "best" practices but the you always had to be thinking on your toes due to the dynamic nature of NERO events.

One distinction that NERO LARP had at the time was that we ran sites like a sandbox. The event staff sets up locations and brief NPC monsters and turns them loose for a two hours or so. Then afterwards everybody comes, a debriefing is conducted and they are sent out for next two hours. Rinse and repeat for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Also you staggered thing so that there was always NPC staff doing something on-site.

So for the cave event this meant there no scripted path to follow. There were eight or so room with long cave corridors connecting them with numerous cul de sacs, and niches. So once it was game on nobody but staff knew where anything was. The start of the cave events was kind of like the Oklahoma land rush. Four to five parties at the entrance waiting for game-on and when it is called everybody entering and then spreading out the deeper we went into the caves.

Gronan mentioned the difficulty of find treasure. One thing that was interesting about playing LARP is the disparity in talent. There were always one or two players that were outliers and were simply that good at finding things in the most unlikely spots. Most people, like myself, were OK, but when a player was good at finding treasure they were really good. The same for stealth, dealing with traps, etc.


(http://www.laurelcaverns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Laurel-Caverns-Map.png)

Interesting. This is the first I heard of old-school gamers criticizing the GaryCon experience.

Most criticism comes from the dilution.  Those who've been going to GaryCon for many years have seen it go from a con about the games Gary wrote, to a con with a larger than normal old school presence.  But the explosive growth in the past few years isn't coming from old schoolers, but instead the adventure league, so each year the je ne sais quoi which distinguished it from other cons dilutes just a bit more and the atmosphere changes slightly.

That said, I (and many others I suspect) have our fill of old school games and people we see every year.  So long as that doesn't change, the rest is can be ignored - except for stuff like LARPers that insist on banging drums while 20 tables around them are trying to run a game; if that sort of growth continues then it will be harder to ignore.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1030963Interesting. This is the first I heard of old-school gamers criticizing the GaryCon experience.

Note carefully that the critics weren't actually there.

Gronan, do you disagree with EOTB's assessment?

I've only been to one GaryCon and I thought it was very old school, but also with the newer games that cloned the older games (such as OSRIC) or tried to present older style (like DCC). I got to play Metamorphosis Alpha at Jim Ward's table. I got to play some OD&D with a group other than my regulars. I got to chat about gaming with Earnie Gygax, Rob Kuntz, and some others. It was a great experience.

It's been a few years, but I don't recall much of a 5E presence there. I want to go back one of these days and will be really bummed if the atmosphere has changed. :(

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030026Back in the day, when we played D&D (From now on here I mean OD&D, okay) we were all of us focused on the map.  The map gives vital clues to the treasure hunt that is dungeon exploration.  "Hey, what's over there?"  or maybe "Hey, notice this stub corridor, if there were a secret door right here..."

And this keeps up in some circles; after running a game in NYC for the Blog of Holding folks, I've remarked several times, including hereabouts, that by the end of the campaign, everybody was focused on the maps just like Ye Oldie Dayse.

At GaryCon nobody's looking at the damn map.  I think that's why the games have been so unsuccessful; people don't realize that an old man will not walk up to them in an inn and hand them a quest coupon.  D&D in its earliest incarnation is a game of exploration and treasure hunting, and to explore you have to cover ground.

This year I finally lost my temper a bit and gave them a "All Right you Primitive Screwheads, Listen Up!" speech.  And yes, I did use just those words.

Because we'd been playing for over 2 hours, and all that had happened is they'd traversed 100 feet of corridor, once in each direction.

The map.  It's all about the map.

Your thread titles are making me hungry Gronan.

What was the reaction to the screwheads speech?

Thing is, I still don't buy the mapping thing. If you were exploring an occupied, dangerous, treasure-filled (hopefully!) cave system "for real", you might spend some time making subtle marks on corners, so you could retreat safely in a hurry later if necessary. But spending time doing careful, accurate maps, is a dangerous diversion of a precious resource (time). Having cleared the place, maybe then I would bring a survey team down.

It's also hard to translate a 3D visual experience to an audible 2D one. "We turned left at the corner where the pink mold is on the sticky-out rock two feet below the roof."

Finally there is risk vs reward. Why doesn't the gang ever decide a magic number before they go in?

"Our current income is 1gp per day. If we find enough treasure so that we each have 500gp each, we'll leave".


At the end of the day, it's all social contract. We wanna have fun, we wanna have adventure. We'll agree to act non-logically, if you present us with challenges that adequately entertain us. Deal?

But I don't see that that automatically leads to "As players we must draw accurate maps as we go along". Sounds like the players are doing the DM's job for him.

If you think mapping is dumb, try playing a complicated dungeon or cave with a DM who doesn't hold your hand when its time to find your way out. If a DM only describes what you can see and hear at any given time, without talking like your players have a compass in their heads, eidetic memory and see in the dark, then the PC's are going to get badly lost very quickly. This is why real cavers spend a lot of time and effort to map!

Quote from: Larsdangly;1031001If you think mapping is dumb, try playing a complicated dungeon or cave with a DM who doesn't hold your hand when its time to find your way out. If a DM only describes what you can see and hear at any given time, without talking like your players have a compass in their heads, eidetic memory and see in the dark, then the PC's are going to get badly lost very quickly. This is why real cavers spend a lot of time and effort to map!

Right, but real cavers are primarily there to map (explore).

D&D adventurers are not there primarily to do that, it's like third on the list.

Quote from: Motorskills;1031002Right, but real cavers are primarily there to map (explore).

D&D adventurers are not there primarily to do that, it's like third on the list.

Real D&D players are.  You just suck, that's all.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030973Gronan, do you disagree with EOTB's assessment?

Adventurer's League is all stuffed into one room so they don't get any of it on anybody else.  And he was stating that there is some new stuff there, not that the old school has disappeared, which rumor is running around, spread by people not there.

In mapping locations such as a dungeon, I consider that there are at different types of information about a place that characters may have: immediate observation, memory, and physical maps that they or others may have actually put on paper.

* Characters visiting a location can see it (depending on how well-lit and unobstructed it is), and should be able to immediately (in game time, anyway) be able to get that level of information about a place.

* Characters who have visited a location should have some memory of being in that place.

* Characters who have made a map of a place will also have that physical object and some memory of which place on the map relates to which place they have a memory of.

Also, the GM may provide various information to players which can represent some or all of those things, and may be more or less accurate than would make sense for each of those levels. For example, a verbal description may take a lot of time and not be very effective at communicating some kinds of details (e.g. irregular room shape) but may be more accurate than it would be for the characters (e.g. accurate distances or artificial measures such as map squares or hexes).

Often there is some conflict and/or confusion about the differences between those things, and without going LARP, some of that's unavoidable because the player's experience is a different sort from the PC's. On the one hand, the players need enough information to be able to make the decisions needed for play, but on the other hand, that doesn't mean that the PCs would end up having an accurate physical map of where they've been, especially if it's a perceptually confusing place to be in and they haven't taken any game-time to map it, or don't have any mapping skills or equipment, or various things happened to them that would have damaged the map, etc.

The system I started with in 1980 (The Fantasy Trip - In The Labyrinth has a detailed section on adventuring in detailed locations and mapping them, and some nice suggestions about how to relate what happens in play to the ability to notice details and to make a map. A map is important too in TFT because you really want to zoom in to 1.3-meter hexes for tactical combat, so when there's a fight someplace, the GM will lay out an accurate map at least showing the shape of the space where the fight takes place, and there's a handy conversion of location-map hexes to megahexes (groups of 7 small-scale combat hexes) for that purpose. I used that for several years and we enjoyed it a lot and were into exploring and mapping places. However we started to notice some artificialities of the world being organized into a nice grid (even a nice hex-grid). Eventually we started adding more natural shapes for caverns and having man-made buildings also be often drawn without conforming to the grid, which at that point for us we liked better even though (and/or because it was harder to map accurately).

That is, we understood that for the characters having actual physical maps, those should be inaccurate, unless the character has suverying skills and equipment and has and takes the time to use it. Try mapping places by holding pen and paper sometime (never mind parchment-scroll and quill) - it takes time and generally involves quite a few inaccuracies and/or mistakes, especially without measurements.

On the other hand, there is a perhaps-more-important need for the other two levels of place information. First, the players do need to be able to understand the place they are in as quickly as possible so they can play the situation. For this, I like to either lay out the outline on the table (and have players place their figures to show where they go), or to show them a sketch of what they see (but I like to avoid showing the "actual" map so they don't know what details might be there that their characters don't know). Second, the players need to be able to relate to the place they have been through with an appropriate level of ability to not get lost and have an idea how things are laid out, and that is a challenge because the players have not been to the space (unless you've laid it out on the table), so if I feel that level is lacking (i.e. the characters would have a sense of layout that the players don't have) then I give that to the players with additional diagrams or verbal interpretations that represent that understanding.

Example of such a verbal interpretation:

Player: "Wait, I'm confused - where did we find that goblin corpse?"
GM: "In the room with the spiral pillars. Your character remembers how to get back there - it was three rooms ago. Do you want to go back there? Ok that should be easy to find."

On the other hand, the need for immediate information about the place the PCs are in, and the need to let PCs have an effective-enough memory and understanding of where they've been, is not the same thing as needing to have an accurate paper map, and certainly not the same one showing all the details that the GM has. Accurate paper maps can subtly give out more information about what is or is not in a place and how it's arranged than the characters would really have, and can lead to a premature and diminishing sense of "well, we know everything there is to know about that place because we [artificially are sure that we] have seen the whole map".

Of course you can easily skip most of that complexity by just showing them part of the "real" map, but unless they're imperfect sketches representing the PCs' impressions/experience, it can also leave out some distinctions that can be fun an interesting to have in play. The most obvious of course is when the "real" map shows things that are not at all visible from where the PCs have been yet, such as nearby rooms, places around corners, behind doors, etc., but also hidden things.

This doesn't need a wall of text to understand; if the DM only volunteers or answers clear questions about immediate sensory information, then the players can figure out on their own whether they remember where goblin corpse is or whether they went left or right at the fork. Good players will remember or have made clear notes; bad players will get lost and eaten by one of those things worse than orcs that live in the deep dark places of the earth.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031003Real D&D players are.  You just suck, that's all.

Actually, if mapping an enemy-occupied area was that critical, the party should clear several rooms, find a defensible position, then spend an hour mapping.

The mapping idea is also pretty ludicrous, except for making return trips to the [cave system] viable.

When I was young and keen, I spent hundreds of hours doing LARP in this place (https://www.google.com/search?q=chislehurst+caves&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilub-ZxIXaAhUp6YMKHTMiD0oQ_AUICygC&biw=1347&bih=634). I guarantee you that even without people chasing you down and trying to kill you, navigation was a frigging nightmare. It all looks the same, and there's only the barest illumination.

After many, many, repeat adventures, I knew the place pretty well. I could draw a map that would be useful to later groups.

But on a first trip down? With active enemies in the area? It's a totally different prospect.

I'm not making detailed maps unless someone is paying me to. I am spending considerable effort in working out how to get back to the entrance - a combination of notes, markings (etc) on the walls, and hopefully some navigation magic if such is available.

But above all, memory. I want to be able to run out of the place. I can't afford to spend five minutes resolving a dungeon map when I have the BBEG trying to hunt me down.


Now where mapping does have its place is in a large wilderness adventure (see Tomb of Annihilation for a recent example, the latest iteration ofThe Isle of Dread I believe).


Don't get me wrong, I love seeing the adventure unfold, I love seeing the cave system / castle / city take shape and come to life. But don't make mapping a chore.

Mapping is never a chore, nor a requirement.

But then, survival is also not a requirement.  Players are welcome to dispense with whatever they find unappealing.  They always choose the risks they wish to take.  Eventually, they will run into a teleport or something that fries the ability of their memory to work as they expect, absent their being eidetic.  

There's a great article about mapping in Twisting Stair #3 that talks about why and when to use different sorts of maps, and why it doesn't have to be a time suck.

Quote from: EOTB;1031025Mapping is never a chore, nor a requirement.

But then, survival is also not a requirement.  Players are welcome to dispense with whatever they find unappealing.  They always choose the risks they wish to take.  Eventually, they will run into a teleport or something that fries the ability of their memory to work as they expect, absent their being eidetic.  

There's a great article about mapping in Twisting Stair #3 that talks about why and when to use different sorts of maps, and why it doesn't have to be a time suck.

I'd be interested in reading that some time.

My issue is that if the DM doesn't do his descriptive job properly (or is just bad at it), mapping can definitely become a chore for the players.

I like the idea of making the players (characters) choose between speed and accurate mapping, that sounds like an interesting - i.e. difficult - choice to put in front of them.

Quote from: EOTB;1031025Mapping is never a chore, nor a requirement.

There's a great article about mapping in Twisting Stair #3 that talks about why and when to use different sorts of maps, and why it doesn't have to be a time suck.

QuoteFrom Kuroth's Quill by Allan -- "Mega-Dungeon Mapping Strategies for Players" (in which Allan attempts to make mapping fun!)

His words, not mine. ;)

Speaking of real dungeon survival skills, who among us punishes PC's when they don't take care of their needs for water and sources of light? I put people on a HP loss schedule when they've run out of fresh water.

Quote from: Motorskills;1030996Thing is, I still don't buy the mapping thing. If you were exploring an occupied, dangerous, treasure-filled (hopefully!) cave system "for real", you might spend some time making subtle marks on corners, so you could retreat safely in a hurry later if necessary. But spending time doing careful, accurate maps, is a dangerous diversion of a precious resource (time). Having cleared the place, maybe then I would bring a survey team down.

It's also hard to translate a 3D visual experience to an audible 2D one. "We turned left at the corner where the pink mold is on the sticky-out rock two feet below the roof."

Finally there is risk vs reward. Why doesn't the gang ever decide a magic number before they go in?

"Our current income is 1gp per day. If we find enough treasure so that we each have 500gp each, we'll leave".


At the end of the day, it's all social contract. We wanna have fun, we wanna have adventure. We'll agree to act non-logically, if you present us with challenges that adequately entertain us. Deal?

But I don't see that that automatically leads to "As players we must draw accurate maps as we go along". Sounds like the players are doing the DM's job for him.

It is just a conceit of the game. It is I suppose a bit hand wavy, but all kinds of things get hand waved in an 'action adventure' sort of way in games.

Personally, if I am doing a classic style dungeon crawl, I can't imagine it working well without at least one player attempting to map it. If the players don't want to map, they don't have to. But my experience with any dungeon that is extensive, is the players are going to have one heck of a time finding their way around if they haven't been mapping (it also makes it much easier to visualize the overall structure when that becomes necessary).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1031032If the players don't want to map, they don't have to.

Yes they do. Or else they get yelled at. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?38691-It-hit-me-like-a-soggy-lump-of-mashed-potatoes-(OD-amp-D)&p=1030026&viewfull=1#post1030026) ;)

Gronan whines about people expecting to be given a mission....but that's the way it's been for decades, not least because it makes sense for a professional adventuring team to be hired as professionals.

He says that "the games have been unsuccessful". Games, plural. Once is unfortunate, more than once is people not learning their lessons. DMs expecting things to be handed to them on a plate.

Obviously he was there and we weren't, but from what I can tell, it wasn't the map that was the problem, it was a complete misconnect between the DM and the players. I can't speak for the latter, it sounds as if they weren't engaged at all, for whatever reason, might have never been salvageable by the DM. That sucks.

But maybe a few minutes' Session Zero spent explaining the concept of the event could have moved the needle: "You have discovered the entrance to an old temple complex outside Springfield. You don't know what's down there, but you know that this is your opportunity to be rich and famous.

But you know the guys from Shelbyville will be here soon to steal your chance at glory, time to get moving..."

Okay, let's go! :)

Quote from: estar;1030554The 40 years later I am reading about folks like M.A.R Barker and his Tekumel setup that would put my rather extensive collection of Dwarven Forge to shame. This includes setup that represented sections of Jakalla (?) Underworld Barker's "megadungeon".

Can you describe this further, if you could?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030706That sounds hilarious. How did they get TPK'd?

They wandered around in the dark, tripping over the simulated traps and and monsters, and I'd get ahead of them and ambush them. All great fun, really. :)

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1030734If you ever organize a group, I am absolutely in. I was just mentioning to my group how we never 'do' stuff like we say we would. The rest of them have shooting range days every couple months, but we never do the paintball or hiking or canoeing trips we used to. 75% or so of them having 18- age kids certainly being a factor.

Where'd you do this? I assume the Mississippi River cliff caves were locked up even back then. Most of the old warehouses now are microbreweries (which would be hilarious as a site for a dungeon crawl, but probably a health code violation for them).

It's a thought. I don' really organize anything, anymore, due to a lack of interest. I can run games, or I can run events; I don't seem to have the stamina for it, any more.

In my big old Victorian house, on a dark and rainy day. We were bored, and that's always the most dangerous time when I'm around.

looked at sites for something like this, back in the day for AGI, and then again for a LARP. I have a complete Tekumelyani room for the players to search for Incriminating Evidence, including chests with Secret Compartments and Locks That Need to Be Picked. If there was any interest, I'd set something up.

Quote from: estar;1030746(http://www.laurelcaverns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Laurel-Caverns-Map.png)

Read your post, and laughed myself silly. I could do a lot with this, and nobody would leave 'alive'. :)

Quote from: Larsdangly;1031031Speaking of real dungeon survival skills, who among us punishes PC's when they don't take care of their needs for water and sources of light? I put people on a HP loss schedule when they've run out of fresh water.

It's not usually an issue for us. The procedure is to retire to a camp outside the dungeon each night, where some men-at-arms and/or servants have been preparing food and so on. I know that nowadays apparently everyone will perish in half an hour unless able to quaff from their water bottle, but in reality you can get through a day in a temperate climate without guzzling down gallons of water. So we assume they take a water-skin or two down into the dungeon with them, and that's enough until the end of the day when they retire, eat, sing songs, bind their wounds, and plan for the next day's sortie.

We do this at the end of the game session, and it also helps with players being here one session but not the next. If you're absent, well then your character is "guarding the camp" or sitting around practising his basket-weaving or something. And if a new player comes, or brings in a new character, well the Duke sent him to join the adventurers and he wanders up to camp and introduces himself. It's a lot more awkward dealing with absent or new players in the middle of the dungeon. So, "venture in, retire each night" works pretty well in many ways, not just for schlepping around food and drink, which I am not really interested in keeping track of as a DM.

Yes, the dungeon-dwellers will get to reset traps, prepare defences and so on - but really, would you want to sleep in a dungeon? Seriously?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1031044Can you describe this further, if you could?

Well it from reading what posted here, OD&D discussion forum, Murkhill and your blog like this post
http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2014/06/a-game-for-stormy-saturday-and-videos.html

Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression like me the professor was like me in his love of setting up his world in miniature. Of course I never went as far as having costumes made of anything from the Wilderlands. Although I was pretty heavy into LARPing for a decade.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1031047Read your post, and laughed myself silly. I could do a lot with this, and nobody would leave 'alive'. :)

Well the last event that was held there the only I could get out was squeeze myself underneath this narrow overhang with the floor covered with this thin sheet of slime mud. I was in full armor and I am not a small guy by any means.

Then to top it all of, during the event a ice storm came through. The way out of the place was uphill. The event ended at 9pm and it took until 3 am to get everybody out and onto the road. I was driving a battleship of an old station wagon (old for even the nineties). I went up the hill a bit and had to come back down. Then I wasn't stopping. Luckily there was a small maintenance road to the right so I veered that way and slowly plowed into the snow along side of that road. Otherwise I would have gone right through the driveway, over the cliff and dropped on top of Uniontown.

Quote from: estar;1031065Well it from reading what posted here, OD&D discussion forum, Murkhill and your blog like this post
http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2014/06/a-game-for-stormy-saturday-and-videos.html

Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression like me the professor was like me in his love of setting up his world in miniature. Of course I never went as far as having costumes made of anything from the Wilderlands. Although I was pretty heavy into LARPing for a decade.

As for myself I do things like setup the central portion of City-State or this smaller layout of a dungeon I made for Green Ronin's Fantasy Age. Note: this was taken after the adventure was over with.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2353[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Larsdangly;1031031Speaking of real dungeon survival skills, who among us punishes PC's when they don't take care of their needs for water and sources of light? I put people on a HP loss schedule when they've run out of fresh water.

Depends on the temperature and environs. Sufficient water is usually findable in non-arid regions. Also, most living creatures drink water so the dungeon usually has some water sources (though not always). And most non-magical monsters are edible so often you can eat what you kill. Mounts can eat grass.  

Of course, ocean journeys, desert caravans and planar expeditions are situations were you gotta stock up on booze and munchies.

But light is another story. If you don't have light, you get free darkness.

Quote from: estar;1031065Well it from reading what posted here, OD&D discussion forum, Murkhill and your blog like this post
http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2014/06/a-game-for-stormy-saturday-and-videos.html

Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression like me the professor was like me in his love of setting up his world in miniature. Of course I never went as far as having costumes made of anything from the Wilderlands. Although I was pretty heavy into LARPing for a decade.

Great! Thank you! In my role as informal archivist, I like to collect information and sources, so you're being a great help to me. I really appreciate your answer, as it helps me understand what information is out there.

You're not at all wrong; one of the very first games I was at out at Phil's used my collection of wooden blocks - off-cuts from a instrument makers' shop - to fight the battle on the table when we assaulted the palace of Bassa, king of the Ssu; Phil did indeed love to make as much stuff as he could, just because he could. He did the Temple of Vimuhla model freehand on his table saw, and didn't lose any fingers doing it.

The costumes were made just for the fun of it; LARPs hadn't been invented yet... :)

Quote from: estar;1031068Well the last event that was held there the only I could get out was squeeze myself underneath this narrow overhang with the floor covered with this thin sheet of slime mud. I was in full armor and I am not a small guy by any means.

Then to top it all of, during the event a ice storm came through. The way out of the place was uphill. The event ended at 9pm and it took until 3 am to get everybody out and onto the road. I was driving a battleship of an old station wagon (old for even the nineties). I went up the hill a bit and had to come back down. Then I wasn't stopping. Luckily there was a small maintenance road to the right so I veered that way and slowly plowed into the snow along side of that road. Otherwise I would have gone right through the driveway, over the cliff and dropped on top of Uniontown.

Wheee!!! :)

Quote from: EOTB;1031025Mapping is never a chore, nor a requirement.

For players who enjoy mapping, its part of the fun.

I find that even when I lay out the map sections, there is often 1 player scribbling down a map for the party.

I used to play AD&D with a DM who declared the PC had have their parchment, quill and light to do the mapping so they were always unarmed and unready when combat broke out. We used to hire a scribe, dress him in plate armor and keep him in the center of the party with the mages. But then he'd die in an area effect attack and the parchment always failed its save. So my Fighter would carry chalk in his shield hand and mark walls and rooms.

Quote from: estar;1031069As for myself I do things like setup the central portion of City-State or this smaller layout of a dungeon I made for Green Ronin's Fantasy Age. Note: this was taken after the adventure was over with.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2353[/ATTACH]

I love doing stuff like this; people seem to enjoy it,, too.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1031079For players who enjoy mapping, its part of the fun.

I find that even when I lay out the map sections, there is often 1 player scribbling down a map for the party.

I used to play AD&D with a DM who declared the PC had have their parchment, quill and light to do the mapping so they were always unarmed and unready when combat broke out. We used to hire a scribe, dress him in plate armor and keep him in the center of the party with the mages. But then he'd die in an area effect attack and the parchment always failed its save. So my Fighter would carry chalk in his shield hand and mark walls and rooms.

Yes - maps are tenuous.  I've seen DMs who make slate available for a better item save.

TBH, I keep a basic path/room (no pixel-bitching dimensions) and that's it; I go with 80% of the benefit for 20% of the effort every time.  And if I get lost it's part of the fun.  

Having setbacks and having to scrape your way out is the best part.  All heroes are disposable heroes, and live only for my entertainment as a player.

Quote from: EOTB;1031082All heroes are disposable heroes, and live only for my entertainment as a player.

The only story is "This is what happened."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031083The only story is "This is what happened."

We don't always agree, but in this - very much agree.  As a DM, I want to be surprised by my players.  I mean completely and utterly taken aback and having to fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants referee something I never saw coming (at least for the remainder of one session).

Quote from: Larsdangly;1031031Speaking of real dungeon survival skills, who among us punishes PC's when they don't take care of their needs for water and sources of light? I put people on a HP loss schedule when they've run out of fresh water.

I just tell mine they better leave the dungeon at the end of the session. Their kit includes water for a few hours' delving. I like the cadence of weekly delves, starting each session at the Inn (just as we play each session at the pub!), with real time = game time.  This makes open table play very easy since new PCs can show up at the Inn just as new players show up at the pub. :)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031004And he was stating that there is some new stuff there, not that the old school has disappeared, which rumor is running around, spread by people not there.

If you're referring to me and what I said up-thread, please review what I said, again. I was intentionally very explicit that my comments were not based on personal experience, but based on talking to people who did attend. I didn't do that so my comments/questions could be summarily dismissed out of hand, but to provide full disclosure and put what I said into context. And I never said old school at GaryCon has disappeared. Again, I very explicitly said that I know you can find and enjoy old school gaming at GaryCon. My posts were more a question about your statement that "old school gaming is what GaryCon is ABOUT." In other words, the thrust of my comments was exactly what you mention, above, (and what EOTB talked about): the growth of the con mainly coming from the newer games.

You're not the only person I'm referring to and I was and am frankly far too lazy to dissect several different posts point by point.

It's possible that the 5e and PF people might step away from organized play long enough to play some of the older games run in a different style.  Yeah, there's the argument of dilution, especially if bog standard con stuff starts pushing the older stuff to the side, but the cross-pollination might be worth it.

It certainly might result in some crossover.  

The main thing I keep front and center is: it's not my con, and I don't begrudge Luke and the rest with whatever they want to do.  The years where everything was old school and the area small enough so that you couldn't fail to run into everyone else attending were a special time, but those don't last unless there's an active desire to not grow - like at NTRPGCon.  I was able to experience some of those, so I'm happy.

If it becomes a similar experience to one I would have at some normal con closer to home that I don't have to spend vacation money to attend, then I'll stop coming.  That's not said in a taking my ball and going home sort of way, but simple economics.  I'm willing to pay a premium for a certain sort of experience.  GaryCon might be better off selling a different one.  This sort of change happens all the time.

Quote from: EOTB;1031180It certainly might result in some crossover.  

The main thing I keep front and center is: it's not my con, and I don't begrudge Luke and the rest with whatever they want to do.  The years where everything was old school and the area small enough so that you couldn't fail to run into everyone else attending were a special time, but those don't last unless there's an active desire to not grow - like at NTRPGCon.  I was able to experience some of those, so I'm happy.

If it becomes a similar experience to one I would have at some normal con closer to home that I don't have to spend vacation money to attend, then I'll stop coming.  That's not said in a taking my ball and going home sort of way, but simple economics.  I'm willing to pay a premium for a certain sort of experience.  GaryCon might be better off selling a different one.  This sort of change happens all the time.

Agreed with your points. I look at conventions as a sort of cost/benefits exercise; if I'm not going to have fun in proportion to what it's going to cost me to go, then I don't go.

What you're describing is the normal life-cycle of conventions; over time, they do morph and change to stay in existence. Look at the way that WorldCo and the Five Great Regionals have changed, or Origins and Gen Con for that matter.

And there is much discussion over "whither GaryCon."  A LOT of us don't want to see it undergo unlimited growth.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031192And there is much discussion over "whither GaryCon."  A LOT of us don't want to see it undergo unlimited growth.

Also agreed!!! Uncontrolled growth has, historically, destroyed a lot of conventions. I've seen all to many convention organizers, whether a small group or a large organization, fail to plan for the future and fail to grow new convention runners and wind up being utterly swamped when the convention hits a certain size. Venue costs also go up, as does operational overheads and liability-related costs. Conventions which have what amounts to a managed growth strategy and plan survive far longer then those which do not. Attendance caps can get a lot of people's knickers in a twist, but them do work to minimize problems.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031192And there is much discussion over "whither GaryCon."  A LOT of us don't want to see it undergo unlimited growth.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1031193Also agreed!!! Uncontrolled growth has, historically, destroyed a lot of conventions. I've seen all to many convention organizers, whether a small group or a large organization, fail to plan for the future and fail to grow new convention runners and wind up being utterly swamped when the convention hits a certain size. Venue costs also go up, as does operational overheads and liability-related costs. Conventions which have what amounts to a managed growth strategy and plan survive far longer then those which do not. Attendance caps can get a lot of people's knickers in a twist, but them do work to minimize problems.

The GEEK Game Demo happens in less than a week and I find that this is something I need to be aware of already. Keeping growth at a manageable level is just another factor for me to keep in mind.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031192And there is much discussion over "whither GaryCon."  A LOT of us don't want to see it undergo unlimited growth.

Indeed; I had a similar discussion with one of the Trolls (of Troll Lord Games) at the second-to-last LGGC; the individual I spoke to seemed perfectly happy with the 200 +/- person attendance, as did Gary (again per discussion "off to the side" with him).

Also, a lot of con-going for me is knowing I can meet up and hang out with people I know and enjoy their company.  Simply showing up to game somewhere "just because" becomes an exercise in "Eh, so what" pretty quickly to me.  I would probably have gone to this past GaryCon regardless (a dear friend cajoled me in to going by picking up a lot of the tab), but seeing EOTB, Mythmere, Falconer, Francisca, Paul Stormberg and so many other swell folks there really made it for me.  Plus I lucked out and met some of the great TSR artists and writers from back in the day.  I'm planning on going again in 2020, but take those factors away and it becomes a lot less appealing.

Geez, none of you asswipes came to see me.

I'm gonna cry.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1031217Plus I lucked out and met some of the great TSR artists and writers from back in the day

That's awesome that you met Larry Elmore:)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031249Geez, none of you asswipes came to see me.

I'm gonna cry.

Did your badge say Gronan?

As for the newer edition stuff, all you need to do is join a few of the tier one games, have fun, and invite the players and the DM to try and play in a few older edition games to get the full Con experience. I did not see an intro track for AD&D, but there is nothing stopping the Con from running linked AD&D storylines like AL does targeted at newer players.

Yes, my badge said "Gronan of Simmerya."

That said, I rarely was found outside the Legends of Wargaming room.  Or the small bar down at that end of the conference center.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031313Yes, my badge said "Gronan of Simmerya."

That said, I rarely was found outside the Legends of Wargaming room.  Or the small bar down at that end of the conference center.

I watched a little of your Battle of the Ice game, but other than chatting with one of the players about the aforementioned incident with the Teutonic heavy cavalry breaking through the ice, I didn't linger as I didn't want to distract anyone.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031313Yes, my badge said "Gronan of Simmerya."

That said, I rarely was found outside the Legends of Wargaming room.  Or the small bar down at that end of the conference center.

Then I probably saw you but would have had no reason to say hello, but next year I will.

As for maps, I am navigating fhe Tokyo rail network and even with color coding , the big bad would have caught and eaten me by now.

Quote from: RunningLaser;1031257That's awesome that you met Larry Elmore:)

I did, I did not have anything for him to autograph, and I felt terrible about it!  Jeff Easley signed my DM screen, Darlene, Erol Otus, David S. LaForce, got 'em all from them but dang it I did not have an Elmore print or anything to sign.  Next time I go if he's there I'll make sure I've got something.

I don't get the debate here. My players don't really have a problem doing mapping. There's always at least one guy in every party who seems to enjoy doing it.

Quote from: Motorskills;1031002Right, but real cavers are primarily there to map (explore).

D&D adventurers are not there primarily to do that, it's like third on the list.

Not really. Knowing where safe places are, hidey holes, the fastest way out, unsprung traps you can lead enemies into, and so on can be REALLY important. And sometimes mapping can reveal possible secret rooms. Knowing where you are is important in a dungeon. Even simple systems like say Keep on the Borderlands its oddly easy to get turned around and lose track of where you are when seen from first person.

And as noted previously. Mapping can also alert you to hidden teleporters and other tricks.

Quote from: Omega;1031945Not really. Knowing where safe places are, hidey holes, the fastest way out, unsprung traps you can lead enemies into, and so on can be REALLY important. And sometimes mapping can reveal possible secret rooms. Knowing where you are is important in a dungeon. Even simple systems like say Keep on the Borderlands its oddly easy to get turned around and lose track of where you are when seen from first person.

And as noted previously. Mapping can also alert you to hidden teleporters and other tricks.

I don't disagree with any of that, but not all of that requires mapping per se.

"The Cleric halts a few yards behind, taking rearguard in the corridor behind us. The Thief enters the room and checks for basic traps before waving the group onwards. The Fighter continues through the room and takes vanguard in the corridor ahead of us. The Wizard and Thief take basic measurements of the room, and make the agreed subtle emergency retreat marks in chalk. No-one has made a sound, hand-signals only. Thirty seconds later, the group moves on."

As a DM, if a player presented me (verbally) with that, I would work with it.


A lot of what you offered is simply not a priority when there are monsters wandering around. It can be done - should be done - on the fifth visit to the place. Four thousand years later they are still looking for hidden compartments within the pyramids (https://news.artnet.com/art-world/great-pyramid-giza-egypt-void-1144325).

Quote from: Motorskills;1031946I don't disagree with any of that, but not all of that requires mapping per se. .

Chalk can be rubbed out. And chalk doesnt tell you visibly that something is seriously wrong. (because we walked through at least one teleporter and the group only knew about it because I was mapping and thought I'd goofed up my map.)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031249Geez, none of you asswipes came to see me.

I'm gonna cry.

If I do GaryCon, I promise to track you down and loudly pester you about your book.

...several times over the weekend.

Quote from: Omega;1031955Chalk can be rubbed out.

"Rubbing one out" has a different meaning in the dungeon!

Gelatinous Cubes will happily slurp up chalk.  It contains carbon.

So...slurping and rubbing one out. I guess Phil and Dixie were right about D&D!!

Gronan, how often were maps destroyed in the dungeon (aka, area attacks, mapper falling into acid pits, etc) and what did the DM do?

How did maps alert people to hidden teleporters? That sounds neat.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1031981How did maps alert people to hidden teleporters? That sounds neat.

Typically, folks were alerted when a current dungeon hallway intersected one previously mapped but there was no sign of the previous hallway. At that point the mapper either knew he screwed up, or that the DM was playing with them somehow. In my games, the party would often retrace their steps to check their map and hit a brick wall somewhere or a part of the dungeon that also didn't match their map. That was usually the giveaway, as the teleporter didn't work both ways.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1031981How did maps alert people to hidden teleporters? That sounds neat.

When you run into a situation that cannot be. Say, the corridors does three left turns and you think, 'okay, well this will intersect with itself' and it doesn't. You look at your map, clarify with the DM to make sure you didn't put in a left turn when he said right*, check for some shenanigans like subtly sloping corridors such that you're really looping over or under the previous corridor, and finally confirming, 'nope, this doesn't make sense. We can't be on one contiguous 2D plane, and the DM says it's not because we've visibly changed elevation.'
*or meant to say right. Genuine mapping errors, in-my-experience, tend to be about 50:50 DM and mapper's fault.

Then, once the players have mastered the hidden teleport detection, some GMs get really mean:  They design a set of dungeon corridors with multiple teleports such that the areas before and after the teleport are seemingly identical.  You can end up teleporting several times without realizing it, until you finally come across a section of the dungeon that doesn't work.  

I never did that, because it's too much like a logic puzzle, which I detest.  But I admire the nastiness of the effort from an evil GM perspective. :)

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1031994When you run into a situation that cannot be. Say, the corridors does three left turns and you think, 'okay, well this will intersect with itself' and it doesn't. You look at your map, clarify with the DM to make sure you didn't put in a left turn when he said right*, check for some shenanigans like subtly sloping corridors such that you're really looping over or under the previous corridor, and finally confirming, 'nope, this doesn't make sense. We can't be on one contiguous 2D plane, and the DM says it's not because we've visibly changed elevation.'
*or meant to say right. Genuine mapping errors, in-my-experience, tend to be about 50:50 DM and mapper's fault.

Don't forget the 20 or so random monster checks that all this takes!  :D :D :D

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1032006Then, once the players have mastered the hidden teleport detection, some GMs get really mean:  They design a set of dungeon corridors with multiple teleports such that the areas before and after the teleport are seemingly identical.  You can end up teleporting several times without realizing it, until you finally come across a section of the dungeon that doesn't work.  

I never did that, because it's too much like a logic puzzle, which I detest.  But I admire the nastiness of the effort from an evil GM perspective. :)

Or a long corridor with a one way teleporter, so that when you traverse the corridor in one direction it's 120 feet, but in the other direction it's 50 feet.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1032031Don't forget the 20 or so random monster checks that all this takes!  :D :D :D

Well sure. But that's a feature of any 'maze-like' effect in a dungeon. It's all time-sinks and time sinks are opportunities for [strike]mayhem[/strike]fun :D.

Quick question-Dwarves originally could detect subtly sloping corridors, but some video I saw (I think by that Stronghold and Streaming guy people were talking about) said that they could only find like 1-2 instances of secretly sloped corridors in a game module. Did Gary use those in-game to surreptitiously move people into a lower dungeon level or the like?

Sometimes.

One of the earliest DMing lessons I learned came from my junior high friend.  I'd read the books.  I knew the rules.  I drew up dungeon maps and world maps and wrote histories.  I knew how the game was supposed to be played.  His parents bought him everything, I mean, really, seriously everything.  He couldn't make sense of the rules, he killed my characters off two or three times a session while loading others with magic items, dragon steeds, and power points (unable to figure out the experience rules he handed out arbitrary power points and levels at his whim), and everybody loved his DMing and loathed mine.  The thing is that he knew what people wanted, he had mad, crazy ideas, he could narrate a scene like nobody's business, while I was trying to play the game as described in the books he was running the game people imagined when they looked at the art.  So, what's my point?  He was a shitty DM.  He thought a waterslide / shooting gallery where you had a crossbow and shot at the monsters as you went down it and got a score at the bottom was a good adventure.  At least a rail road has stops and places where you can get off.  But people loved him and hated me.

The secret to good DMing is to find out what the players want and give it to them, tease them to be sure, but give them what they enjoy.

If you've got someone who loves mapping that's great, do that.  If your players want cart chases screaming down a winding cliff side road or to establish communism in your precious fantasy world do that instead.  Don't try to force them to play what you think is a great game, let them play what they think is a great game.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1031981How did maps alert people to hidden teleporters? That sounds neat.

In my case it was when I noticed the map started intersecting places I had allready mapped and there was no explanation for it. I was totally new to all this and so pointed it out to be sure I hadnt goofed something and... uh oh. Worse yet. It was a one way teleporter so if we hadnt noticed it we would have eventually backtracked and gotten totally lost as the exit wasnt there anymore. I may even still have the map.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1032031Don't forget the 20 or so random monster checks that all this takes!  :D :D :D

There shouldnt be as we have paused to ask for clarification of the data weve been given.

Player "Hey did I map this right?"
DM "Roll for random encounter for asking a question."
Player "No gaming is better than bad gaming"

Quote from: Omega;1032060There shouldnt be as we have paused to ask for clarification of the data weve been given.

Player "Hey did I map this right?"
DM "Roll for random encounter for asking a question."
Player "No gaming is better than bad gaming"

Well, it could be for going back and checking and/or rolling marbles around trying to find slopes, but your point is well-taken.

Quote from: Omega;1032060There shouldnt be as we have paused to ask for clarification of the data weve been given.

Player "Hey did I map this right?"
DM "Roll for random encounter for asking a question."
Player "No gaming is better than bad gaming"

"Hey did I map this right?"
"How do you know?  Who are you asking in the dungeon?"
"Not gaming is better than bad gaming."
"I agree completely.  Don't let the doorknob hit you in the ass, I've got six people waiting for your chair."

Quote from: Omega;1031955Chalk can be rubbed out. And chalk doesnt tell you visibly that something is seriously wrong. (because we walked through at least one teleporter and the group only knew about it because I was mapping and thought I'd goofed up my map.)

It'll take days in a dry environment, also, most teams would have a special 'code' or placement to look for.  And you don't think Goblins and Orks or other under 'dark' dweller not do this either?

Quote from: David Johansen;1032043Don't try to force them to play what you think is a great game, let them play what they think is a great game.

Actually, NO.

What you do is find players who agree with you on what would be a great game and flush the rest down the toilet. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;1032189Actually, NO.

What you do is find players who agree with you on what would be a great game and flush the rest down the toilet. :D

Exactly.  A game the referee isn't excited about is a game that WILL suck.

Quote from: David Johansen;1032043Don't try to force them to play what you think is a great game, let them play what they think is a great game.

Only if they pay me.  My standard rate is $150 an hour.  Why should they force me to play what they think is a great game?

I've never failed to fill a game.  Demand exceeds supply.

Quote from: David Johansen;1032043The secret to good DMing is to find out what the players want and give it to them, tease them to be sure, but give them what they enjoy.

This does work, but only can last if the DM is having fun too.

For some DMs, their players obviously having fun is enough for them. AKA, positive feedback loop. That's cool for those groups. As long as the feedback loop brings joy to both sides of the table, this arrangement works excellently. The problem happens when the loop isn't balanced or ends.

For other DMs, there needs to be something more (or much more) than just the fulfillment of player desires.

For me, I want both. I do enjoy the players having a great time, but its on my terms. Thus, I am clear upfront with players. AKA, I am running THIS game in THAT style with THESE assumptions...wanna play?

And we're back to the beginning; what I thought was "enough information" turned out not to be.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1032243And we're back to the beginning; what I thought was "enough information" turned out not to be.

In physical training, there's a saying, "I said it was simple, not easy."

And that's a good thing in both training and rpgs. But people miss it in training, so we can't expect any better from gamers.