Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030104Mystery novels and shows.  It teaches people that nothing is as it seems.  Even when it really is as it seems.

And reality.

There are various places with secret passages and rooms that can easily be missed if no one pauses and wonders why there is a 10x10 space right there but no doors or reason for it to be there.

Example. My aunts place has a door that opens to a set of stairs that end in a blank ceiling. No hatch or such. The whole thing swings up and is fairly heavy too so a basic push on it would make one think its solid. The steps are also itty bitty so it could also be mistaken for some sort of weird cupboard.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1030118Yeah this is simply the 5e experience system working encouraging killing things. The old xp for gold isnt great either, but it's better than xp for killing stuff.

Wrong. 5e encourages EXP for things other than combat too.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1030260I am just replying to the absolute statement that old school means no maps given to players and to consult with the earliest players for verification. I started in 1981, a mere babe if that is the discussion.

I think Gronan meant Dungeon maps shouldnt be handed to players. Overland maps are a different animal usually. But not allways. It is very dependant on if the region is known or not.

Contrast Keep on the borderlands area map with Isle of Dreads for example. In isle of dread the PCs are handed a mostly blank map a-la Source of the Nile.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030062I think the issue is their perception that the only way to get XP is to kill stuff.

Having an open game table, my last two sessions have had three people who've never played AD&D1e before. All of them imagined they'd have to kill X creatures to level up. My two experienced players explained, "No, it's treasure." They'll need a few sessions to understand it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1030326Having an open game table, my last two sessions have had three people who've never played AD&D1e before. All of them imagined they'd have to kill X creatures to level up. My two experienced players explained, "No, it's treasure." They'll need a few sessions to understand it.

But they likely played, or have seen played computer RPGs, and a lot of them still use the Monster as XP model.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1030315We still do it like this. Sometimes somebody will do a map sketch, but mostly not. If we get confused, the GM shows us part of his map or will correct us.

Honestly, that sounds like no fun to me.  The tension created by the uncertainty of your situation is half the fun.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030337Honestly, that sounds like no fun to me.  The tension created by the uncertainty of your situation is half the fun.

This before... or after you realize you have mapped right through a hidden teleporter and now your map makes no sense?

(First session. Exactly this happened. But the party was glad I was mapping and pointed out the discrepancy as it alerted the group that something had happened.)

Quote from: Omega;1030318Wrong. 5e encourages EXP for things other than combat too.

The bulk of your xp still comes from killing things though, the other amounts are minor (going from memory)

Quote from: Ulairi;1030268I was there and from my time it was an old school gaming convention. We weren't hidden away in the basement...The dealer room seemed focus on old school or OSR gaming.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030277A ton of OSR clones and a good gob of AD&D 1...But the "stuck in the basement" part is just plain bullshit. And the single largest dedicated room was the "Legends of Wargaming," which is entirely pre-1980 miniatures wargames.

All that sounds good, to me. Glad to hear it.

"I've played this game the same way for forty years. I understand that there have been a whole slew of new editions since that time, but I automatically expect people brought up on one of those newer editions (with hundreds of supporting products) to immediately understand the way the game I played forty years ago is meant to be played, and I'm pissed that they don't."

Did I get that right?

But here's the thing, if they are signing up to play the game "the old way", you need to anticipate that your players will have no real concept of what that means. And maybe meet them a little bit along the way. The projector sounds like a good idea.

My experience with "the old way" has been mixed, albeit the sample has been limited. Two games which reminded me I have little interest in that kind of move / search / kill / repeat / yawn game...a third that nominally had those same traits, but which had me and the rest of the players breathless and white-knuckled the whole game.

The fourth was a session of Torchbearer which I think sorta counts. I struggle with the ruleset, but I love the tension when it falls into place.

Quote from: Omega;1030342This before... or after you realize you have mapped right through a hidden teleporter and now your map makes no sense?

(First session. Exactly this happened. But the party was glad I was mapping and pointed out the discrepancy as it alerted the group that something had happened.)

A similar reaction occurs when I use Dwarven Forge. I will keeping building  after the teleport like nothing happen and eventually the party catches on that something isn't quite right. That after point X they should be near to where they started.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030327But they likely played, or have seen played computer RPGs, and a lot of them still use the Monster as XP model.

Yes. One kept saying. "and in Dark Souls -".

He's young. It's not his fault.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1030363Yes. One kept saying. "and in Dark Souls -".

He's young. It's not his fault.

No it is his fault. Or so say the lyrics.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030277The game schedule is up, you can see for yourself.  
https://tabletop.events/conventions/gary-con-x/schedule#?query=

Thank you Gronan. I will check out the games!

Quote from: CRKrueger;1030293So are we still pretending that letting "RPGs tell stories" go unchallenged in all the intro sections of RPGs because it was "close enough and everyone knows you don't mean actual stories" was a good idea?

No.

No we do not.

But I think you meant to post in another thread.

Or you should start a thread just about that.

Quote from: estar;1030243[ATTACH=CONFIG]2320[/ATTACH]
My experience is that people were all over the place with this stuff then and now.

I love using wooden blocks for dungeons. They are just too heavy to drag to cons.

Several times at the hardware store I've wondered if making my own from the lightest wood would be worth the effort.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030213I'm trying to give the experience of the actual early days of D&D, the game that caught our attention and spread like wildfire, BEFORE there were modules or pregens or quest coupons.

That sounds like a good game description.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030213I'm a sadistic bastard and I enjoy throwing handfuls of wandering monster dice until the players are all dead.

Me too! Why else be the GM?

But...did you explain how wandering monsters work in OD&D?

I always do. Wandering monsters don't exist in WotC editions. It's a new concept for many players.

Before the game, I explain how they are invading the lair of monsters. It's their turf. They see in the dark. You're bringing a torch. They eat fresh, live meat and you're on the menu. The smart monsters know their lair intimately, even the dumb monsters know where the traps are. You, my dear adventurers, know nothing of their lair.

That catches their attention. Usually somebody asks, "but we're the heroes, right?"

And I answer, "Who knows? If you conquer the dungeon, you're the heroes. Otherwise, you're snacks. Let's see what happens."

It's more fun to educate them, then...devour them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030220Player mapping is a vital part of Old School D&D, and if you aren't doing it, you ain't OLD SCHOOL.

Explain.

I know some players enjoy it, but why is it vital that the players do the mapping?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030372Explain.

I know some players enjoy it, but why is it vital that the players do the mapping?

Hell, even I can answer that one.

Exploration requires uncertainty - if you know what's out there, you're not exploring, you're sightseeing. Having the players do the mapping keeps a level of uncertainty active even after the players have mapped an area. It also keeps the players more active outside of combat, thus more engaged in the game.