Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1030122Older editions don't differ in this regard. I ran a successful old school sandbox with 5E and disregarded such silly things like the Challenge Rating. It worked just fine.

When people know they will earn XP even if they circumvent a potentially deadly encounter, they quickly switch from killing everything to outsmarting what might be too tough for them to handle.

Yes, that's my experience too.

The computer game "Mine Craft" had to add an "End Boss" because just building stuff and exploring wasn't enough.

It's been my experience that Decision Paralysis occurs when players are not given at least an initial goal/motivation.
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Quote from: Greentongue;1030126The computer game "Mine Craft" had to add an "End Boss" because just building stuff and exploring wasn't enough.

It's been my experience that Decision Paralysis occurs when players are not given at least an initial goal/motivation.
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I find this hard to believe.

When you play "Dungeon Fantasy", the goal is inherent in the game's mechanisms. Everything old school D&D does is geared towards it.

Quote from: S'mon;1030101I was very happy when three players on their first session used the map they'd drawn to decide there could be a secret chamber in a blank spot - and sad to tell them there wasn't one there. Should have given them bonus XP.

I admit, that if my Players are being extra clever with something like this, that I will put it in just because I like to reward them being clever.

To all the doubters Gary Con is still a great place to play old school type games.  There has been an influx of Pathfinder and 5E over the last few years but that's on top of the already existing games.  I figure that there is no single time over the three and half days where there aren't at least 3 AD&D 1st Edition games to choose from (and most of the time more than three) and that's just to start with as basically any game system you've heard of has an event.  There is also the chance to play a number of classic war games like Chainmail, Dawn Patrol etc.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030036Maybe an opaque projector to shoot the map up on the wall so it's easier to see for everyone.  Hmm...

I do notice a difference when I run something using theater of the mind versus maps, minis, dwarven forge, etc. The players seem to grasp better "hey here a corridor we missed going down too" when it there in front of them in visual form.

I use miniatures, dry erase boards, terrain/dungeons tiles, and dwarven forges. While I enjoy using them, the primary reason is to manage the fact I am 50% deaf.


Now I will say it doesn't need to be elaborate. My recommendation is to start off with handouts and dry erase boards. A big dry erase board. Also if a dry erase board is used, things do not need to be drawn to scale. A lot of times just a simple line drawing is sufficient to provide visual cues.

Quote from: S'mon;1030121Well it's best not to give the players the GM's map, unless the PCs have an actual in-world map of the location.

I have no problem giving the players this kind of map.
http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Nomar_Region.pdf

While seemly detailed, it lacks information about the particulars of any one location. Taken as a whole it only has the information that could be learned by a layman going about his business after living in the region for a while.

If I want to zero into a region then I do something like this
http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Summary%20of%20the%20Halkmenan%20Rebels.pdf

I handed this out after the PCs successfully roleplayed with a NPCs who had details about the rebels operating in the region.

Or I use something like this if the PCs haven't talked to people. Note this is a earlier version of the map before I labeled it. Again like the Nomar maps, despite the detail, it doesn't tell the players much about what in any given location.



Finally similar to the Halkmenan Rebel PDF I created this after the players successfully roleplayed with a Dragon who lived in  a orc-infested forest. It summarizes what the dragon told them in visual form. An earlier version of this had considerably less detail.

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Quote from: Spinachcat;1030089But NOW I understand why Gronan was having trouble with his events. Organized play spoonfeeds the we-win railroad. Of course those players are useless. Fortunately, they have AL and PFS to keep them far away from my table so I'm forever thankful.

Unless you learn to subvert their expectations.

Also a general note, when I do use Dwarven Forge or dry erase boards, I am not building an entire layout either at once or over time. I only ever build or draw a limited area. At first it was because of the limited number of piece I had at the time or the size of the dry erase mat I was using. But not I do it deliberately so that if the players fail to keep track of where they are they will get lost.

From my experience in going through actual dungeons built for live action roleplaying and experience camping. In general if you pay attention is hard to get lost as you develop a general sense of the area. However it is easy to lose track of specifics without taking notes (i.e. mapping).  

For example if you are looking for a spring in a ridge that is a couple of miles away, it rarely hard to figure out where the ridge is. But finding the specific spot where the spring is can be tricky if you didn't commit to memory or took careful notes. The same with walking through a maze. You can get a general sense of how it laid out if you pay attention but finding something specific can be problematic.

The method I found that best represents the above for dungeons is only to build/draw a limited area (around 50' by 50' mostly). Then REMOVE/ERASE details as the player move further along. All they ever see visually is a small window of a much larger area. If there a dozen rooms, they are not going to get lost period. But if they are in a huge complex like Tegel Manor, or one of my levels from the Majestic Fastness then they better be mapping or they will get lost despite the presence of dwarven forge or dry erase maps.

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I have gone to each of the last 3 GaryCons and it's been a great place to play old school games. I think the biggest reason younger gamers or newer people aren't about maps is that WoTC has done almost everything they can to downplay the role of dungeons and mapping in the games. Like somebody said the game is pitched about storytelling and character development.

Quote from: estar;1030157The method I found that best represents the above for dungeons is only to build/draw a limited area (around 50' by 50' mostly). Then REMOVE/ERASE details as the player move further along. All they ever see visually is a small window of a much larger area. If there a dozen rooms, they are not going to get lost period. But if they are in a huge complex like Tegel Manor, or one of my levels from the Majestic Fastness then they better be mapping or they will get lost despite the presence of dwarven forge or dry erase maps.

This is my experience as well, though with my particular groups, I find that an even more abstract map works better.  I'll sometimes use some wooden "tiles" I cut and sanded out of paneling, to represent corridors and rooms (3" tile, usually 10-foot square).  They have a good earth tone, but are otherwise clearly abstract.  So that when I say, "this corridor is only 8 feet wide," even though we are using the usual 10-foot tiles, they note it.  I've even used dominos or wooden popsicle sticks to do the same thing.  The sticks are a great way to show that a tile room is cut off.

Basically, I started doing this because I prefer to play theatre of the mind, but if I want any attempt at mapping at all, then most of the players in the group need some minimal visual representation.  Otherwise, we waste all our time talking dimensions instead of visualizing the environment.  I only have a little dwarven forge.  Using it by itself goes the opposite way with my groups--they stop thinking about what I'm saying and focus on only what is there.  I get the same problem if I scrawl a rough map on a white board, even though the scrawl is clearly not accurate.   The dwarven forge pieces work better for me if they are used as accents on the wooden tiles, to show door, chimneys, that sort of thing.

Bottom line for these players:  They need to draw the map for it to do any good for play, but there are plenty of tricks to use to keep that moving.

The game went froma miniatures game (Chainmail) to something else and then back to a very maps and miniatures driven game (4e). 5e deliberately took a step back from requiring battle maps and reintroduced theatre of the mind play very strongly.

As the AL games need to fit into 4 hour blocks, they tend to not be dungeon crawls where maps make a difference.

You can bitch about those young uns, but I like playing D&D. I almost always DM so GaryCon was a chance to play for a change. I played a lot of AL games because I mainly run 5e these days (with an old school group that plays old school style). I also played some S&W and some DCC and Jousted in the wargaming room (which was fun). I decided to go pretty late (last 2 weeks) so did not have as much time to plan and get into an AD&D game or two.

Instead of bitching, I play with the new players (AL is meant for people without a set group or for convention play) and try to show by example why being murder hobos is not the only way. In one scenario, there were two toughs guarding a sewer enterance. The two 12/13 year olds were all about ambushing them and casually murdering them. I pointed out that we had no way of knowing they were not city employees, and my Bard stepped forward and talked our way past them. The kids liked that (they actually were bandits but we got all the XP anyways).

I would suggest that people that like older editions or OSR style play take a little time to enter a few entry level AL games and enjoy yourself and invite the players and in particular the DM to try your game later in the Con. It will teach a few new players better so when they hit your table they are better prepared and you might even have fun playing new material and meeting a few new people.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030089I did not know this. I had thought GaryCon was old school focused event.

Well, keep in mind that I haven't attended. I'd weigh others' actual experiences heavier than I would my impressions from conversations/reports. And there is still an old school presence at the con. It's just that I suspect the newer stuff (e.g. 5e/Pathfinder) has a larger presence.

QuotePhilotomy (or anyone else), do you know of any TSR/OSR conventions? Even small ones?

North Texas RPG con was very old-school focused last time I went. I haven't been in a few years, but I registered for this year's con. The "mini-cons" I mentioned are more local/invitation kind of things. There was one happening in SoCal for a while. There's also a small group of us in Texas (Austin/Houston/Dallas) that meet centrally once in a while, but it's not really a con, it's more like "hey, let's all meet up and game." There's one of those next month.

Quote from: ligedog;1030148To all the doubters Gary Con is still a great place to play old school type games.  There has been an influx of Pathfinder and 5E over the last few years but that's on top of the already existing games.  I figure that there is no single time over the three and half days where there aren't at least 3 AD&D 1st Edition games to choose from (and most of the time more than three) and that's just to start with as basically any game system you've heard of has an event.  There is also the chance to play a number of classic war games like Chainmail, Dawn Patrol etc.

FWIW, I don't doubt that there is good old school gaming to be had a GaryCon. I know there is old school gaming at GaryCon. My comments are more about the general trend with that "influx of Pathfinder and 5e" making it less old school focused. That is, it isn't "all about old school" these days, if my impression is correct. It's more "old school + a major (and growing?) new gaming presence."

Philotomy, I know the SoCal get together. Several of my players have gone. I had hoped they would grow into a small regional con.

And I agree, lots of the OSR stuff happens via invites like Meetups. We have several in the LA area. The RIFTS crew has actually developed quite a presence at the local conventions, including now having their own area.

Quote from: estar;1030154Unless you learn to subvert their expectations.

Of course, but its easy enough to just recruit good players instead. The organized play crowd is there for XP and loot for their organized play characters and rarely venture out of their zone. The crossover players who play both org play and other RPGs usually know the score so their expectations are not an issue.

Quote from: jeff37923;1030075And how do you know this, O Font of Wisdom?

He's doing his usual "Shit on fun" routine, ignore him.