It hit me like a soggy lump of mashed potatoes... (OD&D)

mAcular Chaotic · March 19, 2018, 02:06:07 AM

Quote from: Haffrung;1030077Exploring a dungeon is so central to my formative D&D experiences that I took it for granted that's just what D&D is. Players carefully drawing out the map as they explore, drawing notes and illustrations in the margins, making suggestions, pointing out tactical advantages of this or that route. The engagement of the imagination with exploring the unknown. That's really the central of appeal of the game.

However, I've learned that approach to the game is far from the norm today. My group now is made of guys my age, but who started playing later (the late 80s rather than late 70s), and have a completely different approach to D&D. It's all about the character sheets and what's on them. Their tradition is for the DM to draw the map and hand it to the players. The central focus of attention is the battle map once combat kicks off. They don't really care about exploration, just achieving story and XP goals. When I've been running campaigns, I ask players to draw the maps and it's clear they regard it as a really unpleasant chore that nobody wants to do. They keep pushing the graph paper at me to do it. Basically, they just don't get the appeal.

And I've noticed it's not just players. The reason I became a DM when I was 10 years old was because I loved drawing maps. Sitting down on a Friday night and drawing a 26 room dungeon to play the next day was a tremendously satisfying creative endeavor. Apparently, that's not at all common anymore. GMs on forums and Youtube usually suggest using pre-made maps. Even the prominent D&D designers like Chris Perkins say they hate drawing maps. I loved it right from the outset. So did my best friend and co-DM. And the players all loved drawing while we played. Is it a matter of people just not enjoying putting pencil to paper anymore? Or not having any confidence because they feel they need to experts?

It's because modern gaming is about story arcs and character personalities. What difference does it make what the dimensions of some random room are? It's just irrelevant detail for the players and extra work that won't get used by the DM.

So the DM just draws a battle map for combat clarity when a fight starts and it's usually a few general squiggles to give a rough idea.

thedungeondelver · March 19, 2018, 02:07:19 AM

I dunno man, I had 2 players mapping at my game at GaryCon and they were pretty serious about it.

Spinachcat · March 19, 2018, 02:13:32 AM

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1030084I know I heard at least one attendee from this year commenting that most Pathfinder and 5e games were upstairs, and the AD&D games tended to be down in the basement or out at the ass-end of the lodge. If true (in general), that is what it is, and I get it, but it would seem to suggest that the con is more focused on servicing the "modern/current" market (and maybe "growing the con") than it is about actual old school gaming.

I did not know this. I had thought GaryCon was old school focused event.

Bummer.

But NOW I understand why Gronan was having trouble with his events. Organized play spoonfeeds the we-win railroad. Of course those players are useless. Fortunately, they have AL and PFS to keep them far away from my table so I'm forever thankful.

Philotomy (or anyone else), do you know of any TSR/OSR conventions? Even small ones?

I personally love small cons. The Palladium Open House (about 250-300) is a truly great event for PB fans.

Spinachcat · March 19, 2018, 02:19:28 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030087It's because modern gaming is about story arcs and character personalities.

The 1990s called and would like their pretentiousness back.

Story arcs and personalities!! LoL. That explains all the giant rulebooks for "modern games".

mAcular Chaotic · March 19, 2018, 02:37:54 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030090The 1990s called and would like their pretentiousness back.

Story arcs and personalities!! LoL. That explains all the giant rulebooks for "modern games".

Note that I'm not saying it's better, just explaining why the idea of mapping gets blank stares and why Mearls was so surprised by having fun with it.

That said, actual groups of players are always a mishmash of stuff, not theory, and I'll be introducing my players to the concept in the next dungeon.

S'mon · March 19, 2018, 04:02:43 AM

I tell my players in my Stonehell Dungeon game "You're here looking for treasure... You need to draw a map." This seems to work very well - some people refuse to map, but many do. Ideally the maps get passed around so new groups can benefit.

I was very happy when three players on their first session used the map they'd drawn to decide there could be a secret chamber in a blank spot - and sad to tell them there wasn't one there. Should have given them bonus XP.

mAcular Chaotic · March 19, 2018, 04:07:12 AM

Quote from: S'mon;1030101I tell my players in my Stonehell Dungeon game "You're here looking for treasure... You need to draw a map." This seems to work very well - some people refuse to map, but many do. Ideally the maps get passed around so new groups can benefit.

I was very happy when three players on their first session used the map they'd drawn to decide there could be a secret chamber in a blank spot - and sad to tell them there wasn't one there. Should have given them bonus XP.

I saw Mearls mention this too. What makes people so sure a random blank square has a secret?

Christopher Brady · March 19, 2018, 04:33:25 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030090The 1990s called and would like their pretentiousness back.

It's not taking calls anymore.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030090Story arcs and personalities!! LoL. That explains all the giant rulebooks for "modern games".

No, not really. Most game systems don't have rules for arcs and personalities, it just lets players go. The explanation for the giant rule books is an attempt at trying to be clear and precise. And sometimes, lots of words is how it ends up having.

But it's not any better or worse for it.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030102I saw Mearls mention this too. What makes people so sure a random blank square has a secret?

Mystery novels and shows. It teaches people that nothing is as it seems. Even when it really is as it seems.

S'mon · March 19, 2018, 04:55:48 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030102I saw Mearls mention this too. What makes people so sure a random blank square has a secret?

Sometimes they do. And IRL if you built a castle up not a dungeon down, a blank space on the map definitely DOES mean a hidden room.

Anyway I was just happy three players who had only ever watched Critical Role, apparently never played D&D before, were engaged with exploration to the extent of thinking of such things. They definitely were not in 'feed me' mode.

Psikerlord · March 19, 2018, 06:35:55 AM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030062I think the issue is their perception that the only way to get XP is to kill stuff. One thing I've learned in the Adventure League is that, beating an encounter whether it is by planning a counter ambush, avoiding it (as long as there's a risk involved) or just plan running away, should net you the same amount of XP as if you went in and slaughtered everything. That also includes full negotiations and other purely Role Playing encounters.

Yeah this is simply the 5e experience system encouraging killing things. The old xp for gold isnt great either, but it's better than xp for killing stuff.

Melan · March 19, 2018, 06:36:52 AM

Quote from: S'mon;1030101I was very happy when three players on their first session used the map they'd drawn to decide there could be a secret chamber in a blank spot - and sad to tell them there wasn't one there. Should have given them bonus XP.

Just yesterday, my players hired some extra fellows with pickaxes to excavate a suspiciously blank section of Castle Xyntillan. Unfortunately, they made so much noise that they attracted the attention of Count Giscard deVourey-Malévol, and while most of the party could beat a hasty retreat, the party's Cleric was later found wandering into the nearby town drained of most of his blood.

(They returned on the next expedition to loot the place, though, and got some nice bounty at the cost of only one henchman.)

Maps.

Psikerlord · March 19, 2018, 06:39:35 AM

It's funny, I remember using maps a long time ago (80s). But I also remember thinking, are we cheating? By looking at the map we can see where the secret doors probably are, and because of the dimensions of an A4 page, where things probably arent (eg, look we've explored the whole left side up to the edge of the page - there's obviously not more dungeon that way - we go back the other way). I cant say I miss that kind of analysis, myself. On the other hand, I love to see nice maps as GM.

S'mon · March 19, 2018, 06:57:28 AM

Quote from: Psikerlord;1030120It's funny, I remember using maps a long time ago (80s). But I also remember thinking, are we cheating? By looking at the map we can see where the secret doors probably are, and because of the dimensions of an A4 page, where things probably arent (eg, look we've explored the whole left side up to the edge of the page - there's obviously not more dungeon that way - we go back the other way). I cant say I miss that kind of analysis, myself. On the other hand, I love to see nice maps as GM.

Well it's best not to give the players the GM's map, unless the PCs have an actual in-world map of the location.

Nerzenjäger · March 19, 2018, 06:58:01 AM

Quote from: Psikerlord;1030118Yeah this is simply the 5e experience system working encouraging killing things. The old xp for gold isnt great either, but it's better than xp for killing stuff.

Older editions don't differ in this regard. I ran a successful old school sandbox with 5E and disregarded such silly things like the Challenge Rating. It worked just fine.

When people know they will earn XP even if they circumvent a potentially deadly encounter, they quickly switch from killing everything to outsmarting what might be too tough for them to handle.

S'mon · March 19, 2018, 06:59:43 AM

Quote from: Melan;1030119Just yesterday, my players hired some extra fellows with pickaxes to excavate a suspiciously blank section of Castle Xyntillan. Unfortunately, they made so much noise that they attracted the attention...

The Amazon Fighter Nemesis IMC once decided to chip away at a sinister obelisk that reversed all spellcasting, the noise attracting a ghoul pack - they were lucky to only lose 2 PCs! Now whenever someone suggests a noisy activity in the dungeon she goes "Noooo!"