Mapping is never a chore, nor a requirement.

But then, survival is also not a requirement.  Players are welcome to dispense with whatever they find unappealing.  They always choose the risks they wish to take.  Eventually, they will run into a teleport or something that fries the ability of their memory to work as they expect, absent their being eidetic.  

There's a great article about mapping in Twisting Stair #3 that talks about why and when to use different sorts of maps, and why it doesn't have to be a time suck.

Quote from: EOTB;1031025Mapping is never a chore, nor a requirement.

But then, survival is also not a requirement.  Players are welcome to dispense with whatever they find unappealing.  They always choose the risks they wish to take.  Eventually, they will run into a teleport or something that fries the ability of their memory to work as they expect, absent their being eidetic.  

There's a great article about mapping in Twisting Stair #3 that talks about why and when to use different sorts of maps, and why it doesn't have to be a time suck.

I'd be interested in reading that some time.

My issue is that if the DM doesn't do his descriptive job properly (or is just bad at it), mapping can definitely become a chore for the players.

I like the idea of making the players (characters) choose between speed and accurate mapping, that sounds like an interesting - i.e. difficult - choice to put in front of them.

Quote from: EOTB;1031025Mapping is never a chore, nor a requirement.

There's a great article about mapping in Twisting Stair #3 that talks about why and when to use different sorts of maps, and why it doesn't have to be a time suck.

QuoteFrom Kuroth's Quill by Allan -- "Mega-Dungeon Mapping Strategies for Players" (in which Allan attempts to make mapping fun!)

His words, not mine.

Speaking of real dungeon survival skills, who among us punishes PC's when they don't take care of their needs for water and sources of light? I put people on a HP loss schedule when they've run out of fresh water.

Quote from: Motorskills;1030996Thing is, I still don't buy the mapping thing. If you were exploring an occupied, dangerous, treasure-filled (hopefully!) cave system "for real", you might spend some time making subtle marks on corners, so you could retreat safely in a hurry later if necessary. But spending time doing careful, accurate maps, is a dangerous diversion of a precious resource (time). Having cleared the place, maybe then I would bring a survey team down.

It's also hard to translate a 3D visual experience to an audible 2D one. "We turned left at the corner where the pink mold is on the sticky-out rock two feet below the roof."

Finally there is risk vs reward. Why doesn't the gang ever decide a magic number before they go in?

"Our current income is 1gp per day. If we find enough treasure so that we each have 500gp each, we'll leave".


At the end of the day, it's all social contract. We wanna have fun, we wanna have adventure. We'll agree to act non-logically, if you present us with challenges that adequately entertain us. Deal?

But I don't see that that automatically leads to "As players we must draw accurate maps as we go along". Sounds like the players are doing the DM's job for him.

It is just a conceit of the game. It is I suppose a bit hand wavy, but all kinds of things get hand waved in an 'action adventure' sort of way in games.

Personally, if I am doing a classic style dungeon crawl, I can't imagine it working well without at least one player attempting to map it. If the players don't want to map, they don't have to. But my experience with any dungeon that is extensive, is the players are going to have one heck of a time finding their way around if they haven't been mapping (it also makes it much easier to visualize the overall structure when that becomes necessary).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1031032If the players don't want to map, they don't have to.

Yes they do. Or else they get yelled at.

Gronan whines about people expecting to be given a mission....but that's the way it's been for decades, not least because it makes sense for a professional adventuring team to be hired as professionals.

He says that "the games have been unsuccessful". Games, plural. Once is unfortunate, more than once is people not learning their lessons. DMs expecting things to be handed to them on a plate.

Obviously he was there and we weren't, but from what I can tell, it wasn't the map that was the problem, it was a complete misconnect between the DM and the players. I can't speak for the latter, it sounds as if they weren't engaged at all, for whatever reason, might have never been salvageable by the DM. That sucks.

But maybe a few minutes' Session Zero spent explaining the concept of the event could have moved the needle: "You have discovered the entrance to an old temple complex outside Springfield. You don't know what's down there, but you know that this is your opportunity to be rich and famous.

But you know the guys from Shelbyville will be here soon to steal your chance at glory, time to get moving..."

Okay, let's go!

Quote from: estar;1030554The 40 years later I am reading about folks like M.A.R Barker and his Tekumel setup that would put my rather extensive collection of Dwarven Forge to shame. This includes setup that represented sections of Jakalla (?) Underworld Barker's "megadungeon".

Can you describe this further, if you could?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030706That sounds hilarious. How did they get TPK'd?

They wandered around in the dark, tripping over the simulated traps and and monsters, and I'd get ahead of them and ambush them. All great fun, really.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1030734If you ever organize a group, I am absolutely in. I was just mentioning to my group how we never 'do' stuff like we say we would. The rest of them have shooting range days every couple months, but we never do the paintball or hiking or canoeing trips we used to. 75% or so of them having 18- age kids certainly being a factor.

Where'd you do this? I assume the Mississippi River cliff caves were locked up even back then. Most of the old warehouses now are microbreweries (which would be hilarious as a site for a dungeon crawl, but probably a health code violation for them).

It's a thought. I don' really organize anything, anymore, due to a lack of interest. I can run games, or I can run events; I don't seem to have the stamina for it, any more.

In my big old Victorian house, on a dark and rainy day. We were bored, and that's always the most dangerous time when I'm around.

looked at sites for something like this, back in the day for AGI, and then again for a LARP. I have a complete Tekumelyani room for the players to search for Incriminating Evidence, including chests with Secret Compartments and Locks That Need to Be Picked. If there was any interest, I'd set something up.

Quote from: estar;1030746

Read your post, and laughed myself silly. I could do a lot with this, and nobody would leave 'alive'.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1031031Speaking of real dungeon survival skills, who among us punishes PC's when they don't take care of their needs for water and sources of light? I put people on a HP loss schedule when they've run out of fresh water.

It's not usually an issue for us. The procedure is to retire to a camp outside the dungeon each night, where some men-at-arms and/or servants have been preparing food and so on. I know that nowadays apparently everyone will perish in half an hour unless able to quaff from their water bottle, but in reality you can get through a day in a temperate climate without guzzling down gallons of water. So we assume they take a water-skin or two down into the dungeon with them, and that's enough until the end of the day when they retire, eat, sing songs, bind their wounds, and plan for the next day's sortie.

We do this at the end of the game session, and it also helps with players being here one session but not the next. If you're absent, well then your character is "guarding the camp" or sitting around practising his basket-weaving or something. And if a new player comes, or brings in a new character, well the Duke sent him to join the adventurers and he wanders up to camp and introduces himself. It's a lot more awkward dealing with absent or new players in the middle of the dungeon. So, "venture in, retire each night" works pretty well in many ways, not just for schlepping around food and drink, which I am not really interested in keeping track of as a DM.

Yes, the dungeon-dwellers will get to reset traps, prepare defences and so on - but really, would you want to sleep in a dungeon? Seriously?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1031044Can you describe this further, if you could?

Well it from reading what posted here, OD&D discussion forum, Murkhill and your blog like this post
http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2014/06/a-game-for-stormy-saturday-and-videos.html

Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression like me the professor was like me in his love of setting up his world in miniature. Of course I never went as far as having costumes made of anything from the Wilderlands. Although I was pretty heavy into LARPing for a decade.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1031047Read your post, and laughed myself silly. I could do a lot with this, and nobody would leave 'alive'.

Well the last event that was held there the only I could get out was squeeze myself underneath this narrow overhang with the floor covered with this thin sheet of slime mud. I was in full armor and I am not a small guy by any means.

Then to top it all of, during the event a ice storm came through. The way out of the place was uphill. The event ended at 9pm and it took until 3 am to get everybody out and onto the road. I was driving a battleship of an old station wagon (old for even the nineties). I went up the hill a bit and had to come back down. Then I wasn't stopping. Luckily there was a small maintenance road to the right so I veered that way and slowly plowed into the snow along side of that road. Otherwise I would have gone right through the driveway, over the cliff and dropped on top of Uniontown.

Quote from: estar;1031065Well it from reading what posted here, OD&D discussion forum, Murkhill and your blog like this post
http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2014/06/a-game-for-stormy-saturday-and-videos.html

Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression like me the professor was like me in his love of setting up his world in miniature. Of course I never went as far as having costumes made of anything from the Wilderlands. Although I was pretty heavy into LARPing for a decade.

As for myself I do things like setup the central portion of City-State or this smaller layout of a dungeon I made for Green Ronin's Fantasy Age. Note: this was taken after the adventure was over with.

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Quote from: Larsdangly;1031031Speaking of real dungeon survival skills, who among us punishes PC's when they don't take care of their needs for water and sources of light? I put people on a HP loss schedule when they've run out of fresh water.

Depends on the temperature and environs. Sufficient water is usually findable in non-arid regions. Also, most living creatures drink water so the dungeon usually has some water sources (though not always). And most non-magical monsters are edible so often you can eat what you kill. Mounts can eat grass.  

Of course, ocean journeys, desert caravans and planar expeditions are situations were you gotta stock up on booze and munchies.

But light is another story. If you don't have light, you get free darkness.