Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030048Well, the referee simply describes things.  "Stairs down to the west.  Ten feet, twenty feet, thirty feet, forty feet west.  Stairs end, door north, door west, door south.  What do you do?"

Now, you don't HAVE to map, but good luck getting out alive.

Funny you should say that. I always map on a graph paper pad 'on the side' in the game, and more then once the GM has had to crib offa my map as I'm a lot better them he is at mapping on the fly. And my prepared maps, like the palace floor plan, causes him and the players to swoon with delight - and they love to play on it, in 'real time', as it were.

Allah, The Most Merciful and Compassionate. Maybe I should offer classes in how to be a successful adventurer in Ye Olden Style. I can think of three guys who'd be laughing their heads of at the notion...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030046Heh.  The only change we'd have to make is to show the mapper's map as they draw it, rather than revealing a drawn map.

I did think of your arrangement, but was biding my time for your input.

All this stuff will fit in Der Bug, too; that's how I get it home. Just sayin'. (You have options, my General. It's my job, remember?)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030035The times, Old Geezer, have changed, players have changed with them.  And for the most part, a lot of people don't want to go back to the "meet in tavern, then explore them thar hills yonder".  It sucks but that's how it goes.  I know you don't like the 'newer' style of game, but you have to realize that especially at Conventions, the new players (and by new I mean anyone who doesn't have your experiences, or played as long as you have) will be used to what they know as gaming.  And right now, your preferred way is more or less dead.

Agreed, wholeheartedly. My perception is that I'm personally shouting into the wind, talking about how we used to game, and that I'm flushing money right down the drain with all the stuff I use in my games. (On the other hand, the two plasma screens in the game room and lounge do make for spectacular movie watching.) I think I'll keep offering the option to people, and if they want to try me out, then I'll give 'em a chance.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030046Heh.  The only change we'd have to make is to show the mapper's map as they draw it, rather than revealing a drawn map.

I did think of your arrangement, but was biding my time for your input.

Another option is to take the Panasonic mixer I have, still-store your complete map, and then superimpose a circle matte over the map showing the players only what's within their sight and hearing range. Easy-peasey; it's a pre-programmed function, and you can move the matte over the map as they move along, so that they only see the immediate area around them. Punch-and-crunch to their version of the map for added hilarity and cheap humor.

Piece of cake. This is briefcase video, nothing special.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030037Could you talk more about the map and it's importance? Nowadays the players aren't even responsible for the map or it's just a loosely drawn placeholder so you naturally don't think much of it.

Dang; that scares me. Back in the day, the GMs spent vast amounts of time and effort on their maps and the keys to them, as these were the 'GM Guide' for the adventure. Players had to puzzle out the map and get the spacial relationships, as well as discover what was lying around the place and then having to throttle whatever might be guarding the goodies. I'm astonished to see the huge tomes full of paragraphs that the GMs simply read to the players, and them having to read the text over and over again while the players take notes. It's like watching a lecture in a class.

I think you're right, though; I've seen players miss the most obvious things and get killed simply because they are not looking at the map I lay out for them. "What You See Is What You Get!", in our tradition.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1030049Interesting. This may articulate what I am not thrilled with in the 5e campaign that I'm in, or the gaming that I've seen at conventions. I've had to intervene several times in the 5e campaign to explain why the information on the map is important; I've had to jump in and explain why walking through a narrow pass or gorge is likely to get us ambushed, and the players look at me blankly. They are not stupid - they pick up on this when I mention it - but the idea of 'going around' or 'scouting' gets ditched in favor of mining the possible (probable! certain!) ambush for the XP contained in the bodies of the ambushers. I've seen this particular group cut to ribbons several times this way, and I'm the one who usually has to put them back together.

I'm fascinated by this observation. Exploration is a huge part of all the games that I run, with the players having to explore the 2D or 3D 'map' to get information. People seem to like it, s they act like they've never seen or done anything like it in gaming before. The Gary Con game we did didn't seem to have this problem and I think it's because I had the map projected up on the wall and you as the 'native guide' to keep them focused.  I dunno. Thoughts?

I think the issue is their perception that the only way to get XP is to kill stuff.  One thing I've learned in the Adventure League is that, beating an encounter whether it is by planning a counter ambush, avoiding it (as long as there's a risk involved) or just plan running away, should net you the same amount of XP as if you went in and slaughtered everything.  That also includes full negotiations and other purely Role Playing encounters.

I love maps. As mentioned before. My first session of D&D was as the party's cartographer.

From personal experience Id says its very YMMV as playstyles can vary sooooooooooooo freaking much. Simmilar is my older observation on the near death of the use of retainers, henchmen and other hired help. Very few players seem to want them or even think of them anymore.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030036Old school gaming is what GaryCon is ABOUT.

Actually, GaryCon is about a huge-ass bunch of uber nerds showing up in one place is all. Of which hardly any can role-play. And it's boring for kids to sit around at a table while their dads do basically nothing but shoot-the-shit with each other, and stare at a boring grid poster map with pieces not moving on it. Most boring board game ever is what kids think.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1030072Actually, GaryCon is about a huge-ass bunch of uber nerds showing up in one place is all. Of which hardly any can role-play. And it's boring for kids to sit around at a table while their dads do basically nothing but shoot-the-shit with each other, and stare at a boring grid poster map with pieces not moving on it. Most boring board game ever is what kids think.

And how do you know this, O Font of Wisdom?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030026The map.  It's all about the map.

Exploring a dungeon is so central to my formative D&D experiences that I took it for granted that's just what D&D is. Players carefully drawing out the map as they explore, drawing notes and illustrations in the margins, making suggestions, pointing out tactical advantages of this or that route. The engagement of the imagination with exploring the unknown. That's really the central of appeal of the game.

However, I've learned that approach to the game is far from the norm today. My group now is made of guys my age, but who started playing later (the late 80s rather than late 70s), and have a completely different approach to D&D. It's all about the character sheets and what's on them. Their tradition is for the DM to draw the map and hand it to the players. The central focus of attention is the battle map once combat kicks off. They don't really care about exploration, just achieving story and XP goals. When I've been running campaigns, I ask players to draw the maps and it's clear they regard it as a really unpleasant chore that nobody wants to do. They keep pushing the graph paper at me to do it. Basically, they just don't get the appeal.

And I've noticed it's not just players. The reason I became a DM when I was 10 years old was because I loved drawing maps. Sitting down on a Friday night and drawing a 26 room dungeon to play the next day was a tremendously satisfying creative endeavor. Apparently, that's not at all common anymore. GMs on forums and Youtube usually suggest using pre-made maps. Even the prominent D&D designers like Chris Perkins say they hate drawing maps. I loved it right from the outset. So did my best friend and co-DM. And the players all loved drawing while we played. Is it a matter of people just not enjoying putting pencil to paper anymore? Or not having any confidence because they feel they need to experts?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030062I think the issue is their perception that the only way to get XP is to kill stuff.  One thing I've learned in the Adventure League is that, beating an encounter whether it is by planning a counter ambush, avoiding it (as long as there's a risk involved) or just plan running away, should net you the same amount of XP as if you went in and slaughtered everything.  That also includes full negotiations and other purely Role Playing encounters.

Agreed. What I've been seeing is a tendency to wade right in and kill whatever's in front of the party; we had this happen in the last game session where a new player in the campaign but a very experienced League player went right into full murder hobo mode. One of the regulars was not amused, and she's planning on saying something about it this coming Sunday at our next session. We'll see what happens.

Fascinated by the comment on non-combat activity, and I agree with what you say. Locally, it seems this is very much the exception, and it's pretty rare to see it happening.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030026At GaryCon nobody's looking at the damn map.  I think that's why the games have been so unsuccessful; people don't realize that an old man will not walk up to them in an inn and hand them a quest coupon.  D&D in its earliest incarnation is a game of exploration and treasure hunting, and to explore you have to cover ground.

Do you explain this upfront to the players?

I mostly do Adventure Coupons at cons. It's a 4hr or 6hr slot, mostly strangers, pre-gen characters so its easy for most players.

However, I do 4hr sandboxes as well, but I pimp that upfront in the game description. I tell the players they are reavers who've traveled together to a dangerous place seeking loot. Roll for some rumors you've heard.  I rarely have a problem with the players who show up for that. The adventure becomes "get the most gold" and away they go.  

That said, my Traveller and Gamma World "search and loots" have gone better than my D&D ones.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030026This year I finally lost my temper a bit and gave them a "All Right you Primitive Screwheads, Listen Up!" speech.  And yes, I did use just those words.

That's losing your temper?

That's how I begin many sessions.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030048Well, the referee simply describes things.  "Stairs down to the west.  Ten feet, twenty feet, thirty feet, forty feet west.  Stairs end, door north, door west, door south.  What do you do?"

I draw the map based on what their PCs see. [or put out the cardboard slats which I prefer these days]

I assume the PCs (not players) are competent enough to remember where they've been (but the locales may change in their absence...)

However, there is always plenty of mystery to be searched out on my maps. Even if my method drops some of the "where", I instead have lots of "why", "how" and "who" happening throughout the map.

I do this because I have NO FUCKING PATIENCE when most players draw-as-slow-and-confused-as-fuck.

For me, momentum is key to maintaining immersion.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1030072Most boring board game ever is what kids think.

Most kids really enjoy RPGs.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030036Old school gaming is what GaryCon is ABOUT.

Is it?

I haven't attended any GaryCons, so my comments come from a position of no personal experience. But I remember when Pathfinder was first allowed in, and the worry expressed was that GaryCon was becoming less about old school gaming and more about following what is current/popular and "growing the con." I know those concerns were downplayed by the powers that be (it's about gaming...Gary loved gaming...it's about honoring Gary and the gaming he loved...etc). Maybe they were right. Maybe not. Again, I don't know.

I know I heard at least one attendee from this year commenting that most Pathfinder and 5e games were upstairs, and the AD&D games tended to be down in the basement or out at the ass-end of the lodge. If true (in general), that is what it is, and I get it, but it would seem to suggest that the con is more focused on servicing the "modern/current" market (and maybe "growing the con") than it is about actual old school gaming. Honoring Gary? Sure. All about old school gaming? Open question, in my mind.

I know you can find good old school gaming at GaryCon if you seek it out. I'm not saying you can't. But my impression is that "old school" is more "honored" than practiced.

My personal take on cons is "the smaller and more focused, the better." I'm not into "general geek-culture" cons. I'm not into 5e/Pathfinder/etc. I'm not looking for Star Trek video rooms or cosplay or anime. I want to go to a small gathering of gamers and sign up for games of original D&D, 1e AD&D, DGUTS, Tractics, FITS, Chainmail, golden age Avalon Hill, et cetera. Small cons and even "mini-cons" held at someone's house or at a local hotel or restaurant suit me just fine.

I went to GaryCon this year (first Con since I went to GenCon in 1984). I played a lot of 5e AL games and they had rooms full of tables doing that. It was a D&D convention with a lot of cool older games. I started with 0D&D and mapped like crazy and DMed explaining what players saw. This year I played in a game Matt Finch ran and we mapped. I run a lot of games on Fantasy Grounds and hard to use a VTT without the map projected. The 5e games were all in one central and well organized area. The wargames (which I love and which I started with) were also in one central and well organized area. Evething else was scattered all over the place.

I bet that was by design. Newer players cannot map and older style players can so we got more of a challenge ....

I've pretty much always thought the maps of most games were one of the most appealing parts of them, and without them, I don't think there's much actual world in play.

One of the main elements of play in my campaigns is always the map. The GM maps the world, and it is full of terrain and different sorts of places, which is where everyone and everything is, and the players never see the real maps that represent the actual world. It's up to them, and one of the main things the game is about, to go to different places and therefore find out what's there and be able to interact with it. Making and obtaining accurate maps is one of the main things there is to do.

But also on a personal scale. I love mapped tactical combat, but also just running a session where people see the current location and place counters or figures where there characters are, can add a whole lot of "presence" and engagement to play, and is a really natural thing for everyone to do.