And the answer is "I'd rather play a game with three people who get it, and enjoy the game, then pander to players who don't like the style."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030622And the answer is "I'd rather play a game with three people who get it, and enjoy the game, then pander to players who don't like the style."

You know, this answer applies to so much in our hobby.

I like maps, not necessarily enjoy mapping, but I like getting a dungeon mapped out.  And it is fun going over the emerging map and knowing that there must be a secret door at certain spots.  When you're finished with a dungeon, it's pretty cool to see where you went and how the layout "forms".

Quote from: jeff37923;1030626You know, this answer applies to so much in our hobby.

Yes.  There are a lot of ways to play.  Nobody has to like my way, but I rented this particular room so I could bitch and moan a while.

Quote from: RunningLaser;1030627I like maps, not necessarily enjoy mapping, but I like getting a dungeon mapped out.  And it is fun going over the emerging map and knowing that there must be a secret door at certain spots.  When you're finished with a dungeon, it's pretty cool to see where you went and how the layout "forms".

And as OD&D was originally conceived as written, it's a game of gradually revealing a hidden map.  That's what the game is written for, and viewing it as a game about that particular thing, it works really well.

And for those who don't like that, other games and other editions do different things, which is peachy.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030620We tried live dungeon adventures with actual lanterns in an area with lots of rooms and passages.  You can't see shit.  Even a correctly done coat of arms isn't clearly visible until less than 10 feet away.

And you're measuring things in paces.  Be glad I'm describing them in feet.

I participated in, ran, and organized boffer LARPS events for a decade including events held inside Laurel Caverns in SW PA, and events that had dungeons constructed inside of warehouse and other large buildings. So been there, done that. I can give specifics but in the interest of brevity, it all amounts to saying it depends.

And the reason I made a note of boffer LARPS is that unlike the vampire folks and the stuff run at the cons, boffer LARPS are like a sport and uses as much live-action as it can be safely done. We have to use physical waivers and carry sport related insurance because of that.

Quote from: jhkim;1030614What particularly bugs me is if the players have a bunch of questions for the GM about what they see - and the GM treats it as if the PCs are standing around for a while doing nothing.

I consider time frozen while I draw/place what the PCs see and while I describe stuff, and the time freeze continues if players have an visual perception questions that would make sense from their initial viewing. Exploring / searching is actions, but "first impressions" are freely given.

I assume competence and within the area of light, I am happy to provide quick descriptions and in the shadows, I am happy to provide inferences and fear.

Diddling around is when rooms are checked over and over or when players (and thus their PCs) engage in lengthy (often noisy) discussions.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030620We tried live dungeon adventures with actual lanterns in an area with lots of rooms and passages.  You can't see shit.  Even a correctly done coat of arms isn't clearly visible until less than 10 feet away.

MUST HEAR MORE ABOUT THIS!!!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030631And as OD&D was originally conceived as written, it's a game of gradually revealing a hidden map.  That's what the game is written for, and viewing it as a game about that particular thing, it works really well.

I don't think I've ever heard it described like that.

Player only mapping makes 1000% sense in that context.

Quote from: estar;1030645I participated in, ran, and organized boffer LARPS events for a decade including events held inside Laurel Caverns in SW PA, and events that had dungeons constructed inside of warehouse and other large buildings. So been there, done that. I can give specifics but in the interest of brevity, it all amounts to saying it depends.

MUST HEAR MOAR!

Please start a thread of Live Dungeons and your experiences. I've done a few and I'd love to chat about them too!

Well, it's a chapter in my someday-book...

One more taste for free.  Chirine was "reffing" the thing and we eventually wandered down into the basement.  He pointed at several heaps of miscellaneous "basement junk" in the corners and said "The Coca Cola bottle caps are gold."  After about ten minutes I was down on my hands and knees.  I'd taken off my great helm and I was using a small knife to stir the junk.  The lantern was right next to my head and my face was about 6" off the ground, and it was still hard to tell the Coke caps from the Sprite and Hamms Beer caps, and the old washers.

After a few more minutes I said, "Forget about magic or monsters... just stick an African black scorpion in this pile of shit, and I'm dead."  (I meant African fat-tailed.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fattail_scorpion

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030682Well, it's a chapter in my someday-book...

One more taste for free.  Chirine was "reffing" the thing and we eventually wandered down into the basement.  He pointed at several heaps of miscellaneous "basement junk" in the corners and said "The Coca Cola bottle caps are gold."  After about ten minutes I was down on my hands and knees.  I'd taken off my great helm and I was using a small knife to stir the junk.  The lantern was right next to my head and my face was about 6" off the ground, and it was still hard to tell the Coke caps from the Sprite and Hamms Beer caps, and the old washers.

After a few more minutes I said, "Forget about magic or monsters... just stick an African black scorpion in this pile of shit, and I'm dead."  (I meant African fat-tailed.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fattail_scorpion

Me, I laughed until I cried once we turned the lights back on. I killed all of them, which - I suppose - would make it my one and only TPK until my next one in 2015 or so. I still have the lanterns and shinai, too; anyone up for a go at this? I have, in the intervening decades, stocked up on nasty little rubber critters so Gronan can have his scorpion...

Quote from: estar;1030645I participated in, ran, and organized boffer LARPS events for a decade including events held inside Laurel Caverns in SW PA, and events that had dungeons constructed inside of warehouse and other large buildings. So been there, done that. I can give specifics but in the interest of brevity, it all amounts to saying it depends.

And the reason I made a note of boffer LARPS is that unlike the vampire folks and the stuff run at the cons, boffer LARPS are like a sport and uses as much live-action as it can be safely done. We have to use physical waivers and carry sport related insurance because of that.

This. Lantern design gets to be really important, so that the backscatter doesn't kill your night vision.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1030685Me, I laughed until I cried once we turned the lights back on. I killed all of them, which - I suppose - would make it my one and only TPK until my next one in 2015 or so. I still have the lanterns and shinai, too; anyone up for a go at this? I have, in the intervening decades, stocked up on nasty little rubber critters so Gronan can have his scorpion...

That sounds hilarious. How did they get TPK'd?

One by one.  Mostly  it was "Okay, that would have killed YOU" and in the next room "That would have killed HIM" and in the basement "Okay, the scorpion just killed ME."

And we haven't even gotten to the Fane of the Ancient Pot Roast yet.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030576The ambiguity is part of the POINT.

Oh I know, I've done PC mapping with only going to drawing when there's a fight.  I also know if you had ten people walk through a building drawing maps you'd get 10 different maps, some of them ridiculously different.

One of the best PC mappers I had used a white paper, no lines on it and had his own shorthand for how things connected.  It wasn't as useful for playing 'spot the hidden room' but no one ever got lost.

Another halfling rogue was responsible for more than a few extra wandering monster encounters due to his mapping, but he made a brisk business selling detailed maps.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1030685Me, I laughed until I cried once we turned the lights back on. I killed all of them, which - I suppose - would make it my one and only TPK until my next one in 2015 or so. I still have the lanterns and shinai, too; anyone up for a go at this? I have, in the intervening decades, stocked up on nasty little rubber critters so Gronan can have his scorpion...

If you ever organize a group, I am absolutely in. I was just mentioning to my group how we never 'do' stuff like we say we would. The rest of them have shooting range days every couple months, but we never do the paintball or hiking or canoeing trips we used to. 75% or so of them having 18- age kids certainly being a factor.

Where'd you do this? I assume the Mississippi River cliff caves were locked up even back then. Most of the old warehouses now are microbreweries (which would be hilarious as a site for a dungeon crawl, but probably a health code violation for them).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030630Yes.  There are a lot of ways to play.  Nobody has to like my way, but I rented this particular room so I could bitch and moan a while.

And I love hearing about it, and it's a great idea to make a thread just to do so. I should make one in the main section about my moving woes. However,

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030621The whining in this thread is hilarious.  Now excuse me while I slake my thirst on your bitter tears.

People are raising legitimate questions, not whining. Not everything about this actually makes sense, certainly not to someone coming to it cold without their questions being answered. You don't have to do anything, including answer. But pretending the reservations others are showing is petulant whining is a disservice to yourself alone.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1030687This. Lantern design gets to be really important, so that the backscatter doesn't kill your night vision.

There was a couple of fails in that department. Typically we had 30 to 40 people attend an events with about a 1/3 of them involved in running the event the other 2/3 playing PCs. So there typically half-dozen parties running around trying different things. Some do a good job of it. Others well their "spirits" tend to arrive at the local healers guild a lot.

During the cave event there were parties that got mauled by the NPC monsters because of poor marching order and lighting arrangement. You had to keep an eye out in all directions.

For my part, the last time I played in the caves, I hung behind the party. Based on my experiences the previous times, the group needed somebody to keep "overwatch". Despite my deafness and not wearing my hearing aids (fear of getting them wet), the cave acoustics were perfect for me to hear movement (some frequencies I am near 100%) .

By doing this I was able to see the "monsters" approach the PCs when combat broke out. Because everything was backlit from my point of view I was able to enter combat where it helped the group the most.  Was it risky? Sure but not as bad you think because I was behind the party as they were sweeping things forward. In D&D if there enough party member I would have two hanging back due to fact that unllike human being pretending monsters, in D&D there are monster that can see in total darkness. One of us should survive the initial rounds to warn the party of an attack from behind.

One thing I learn over the decade playing LARPS that there is no one set of tactics that "wins". The key thing to learn is situational awareness. Beyond that it always a case of "it depends". There was a set of "best" practices but the you always had to be thinking on your toes due to the dynamic nature of NERO events.

One distinction that NERO LARP had at the time was that we ran sites like a sandbox. The event staff sets up locations and brief NPC monsters and turns them loose for a two hours or so. Then afterwards everybody comes, a debriefing is conducted and they are sent out for next two hours. Rinse and repeat for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Also you staggered thing so that there was always NPC staff doing something on-site.

So for the cave event this meant there no scripted path to follow. There were eight or so room with long cave corridors connecting them with numerous cul de sacs, and niches. So once it was game on nobody but staff knew where anything was. The start of the cave events was kind of like the Oklahoma land rush. Four to five parties at the entrance waiting for game-on and when it is called everybody entering and then spreading out the deeper we went into the caves.

Gronan mentioned the difficulty of find treasure. One thing that was interesting about playing LARP is the disparity in talent. There were always one or two players that were outliers and were simply that good at finding things in the most unlikely spots. Most people, like myself, were OK, but when a player was good at finding treasure they were really good. The same for stealth, dealing with traps, etc.