Is Wizards Rolling The Dice On Gamism?

Calithena · August 19, 2007, 10:12:38 PM

Seems to me they are.

Will it work?

Settembrini mentioned the 'monster roles' as a red flag - for me too, a big red Gamist flag.

Will D&D4 crash and burn on the speedbump of ingrained Simulationist habits? Or are most of us really Gamists burning to get out?

(Or will the hyped-up Gamism draw current non-roleplayers into the hobby?)

The thesis hasn't been tested since the late 70's/early 80's, when AD&D1 and the convention tournament scene originally won the battle for the Gamists, but later lost the war so thoroughly that Simulationists presided over the hobby like Hannibal at Cannae for two decades.

Blackleaf · August 19, 2007, 10:24:25 PM

It's been so long since I looked at Forge stuff, and their terms are so non-intuitive that I don't know what the heck you're talking about. Gamist? Simulationist?

obryn · August 19, 2007, 10:28:15 PM

I think the classification's pretty much useless, so my answer is "Eh."

-O

Pierce Inverarity · August 19, 2007, 10:46:20 PM

Whatever the terminology, the "war" has already been won. 4E will be 3.5 plus a little this, minus a little that. And unlike in the 80s, 3.5 is the only game left in town.

Erik Boielle · August 19, 2007, 10:55:57 PM

Quote from: CalithenaWill it work?

I think so.

Everything from German boadgames to the billions of dollars invested in video games says gamey games are more fun than simulations.

And anyone likly to come in to contact with DnD will already be familiar with video games, so, yknow. Nothing to lose really. Its what the world will expect.

Slike, in Neverwinter Nights, I think, I noticed they striped out almost everything that was just getting in the way - long journeys, teamates dying etc, and you know, I just didn't miss it.

Blackleaf · August 19, 2007, 10:58:09 PM

A game about creating stories in a simulated fantasy world.

Erik Boielle · August 19, 2007, 11:00:39 PM

To be honest I just think the many hours invested in to WoW and the like have given people new data on what is and isn't interesting.

And now they are moving on chopping all the deadwood out of DnD.

Its good, yknow.

Erik Boielle · August 19, 2007, 11:39:44 PM

For that matter, do you think they will get rid of character death?

A big feature of WoW is that getting killed never costs you more than a few minutes of hanging around.

Will it be the same in DnD4? Massive availability of resurection spells to clerics out of combat maybe?

RPGPundit · August 20, 2007, 04:30:54 AM

We don't actually believe in any of those term around here Calithena, or use them in regular site conversation. Please reference the Landmarks.

RPGPundit

Aos · August 20, 2007, 04:43:18 AM

Not to lend credence to the RPGNut, but, yeah, wtf is gamism?

Alnag · August 20, 2007, 05:01:01 AM

Reading more and more about 4e, it will prove GNS terminology absolutely obsolete.

Drew · August 20, 2007, 05:12:04 AM

The monster roles look like an extrapolation of Mike Mearls villain classes from the Iron Heroes supplements. They take minutes to stat and are very user friendly. Classes available in IH include the Champion, Demonic Minion, Demonic Brute, Demon Knight, Dreaded Sorceror, Warleader and Aristocrat. Each fulfils a fairly specific role in an encounter, and can be reused under another guise with minimal modification.

It's a quick, slick way to throw challenges at the party, and I welcome its possible inclusion in the new ruleset.

Settembrini · August 20, 2007, 05:15:44 AM

Calithena,

your post shows how useless the term is. Because you aren´t using it "correctly". Games can´t be GAM, people aren´t GAM etc.
Moreso, the only real incidence of GAM as defind in the BM would be the actual participation in an AD&D tournament.

And clearly, the competition between players isn´t anywhere in 3.x or even what we know of 4th Ed.

Your usage of the term is way more along the lines of the threefold, but alas that only confuses stuff.

BUT. I´m getting what you want to say, because I have former experience with you.
It would be more fruitful if we discussed it with the actual develpoment at hand: predisposition and concentration of mechanics upon thoroughly designed singular encounters and reactive tactical play.

Blackleaf · August 20, 2007, 05:41:53 AM

Or perhaps:

"Is Wizards gambling on emphasizing the tactical encounter instead of the overall dungeon / adventure?"

(I don't think we have enough info on 4e to properly discuss that anyway)

Drew · August 20, 2007, 05:45:36 AM

Quote from: StuartOr perhaps:

"Is Wizards gambling on emphasizing the tactical encounter instead of the overall dungeon / adventure?"

(I don't think we have enough info on 4e to properly discuss that anyway)

We don't, but early signs are that they're shooting for both. Powers/Maneuvers seem to be divided along the continual, daily and per encounter basis, indicating multiple levels of tactical consideration.