Cross-posted from my blog...
If the price of having older editions on the mainstream bookstore shelves was that the clones could no longer be published---not even for free download---Would you agree to that price?
Does the answer change if you found out no one could publish any material for the older editions and charge for it without a lawsuit or some other costly legal consequence?
Curious...
If they come with full support, new art, adventures, errata, etc, I guess so. The clones wouldn't really be needed in that instance, so it's not like they'd be missed.
And if four men are starving in a rowboat in the middle of the ocean, is it moral for them to kill one of them and eat him? And if so, how do they choose which?
Seriously, these questions are not meaningful.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;357072And if four men are starving in a rowboat in the middle of the ocean, is it moral for them to kill one of them and eat him? And if so, how do they choose which?
Seriously, these questions are not meaningful.
But interesting. I was wondering mainly if the love of the clones was, as many people said, based in the fact that it gets the books back on the shelves and gets more people playing---If that's the main point of them to many, then if WOTC were able to do it better, would people give up the clones? Or is it something else?
And how does the ability to sell modules for older editions play into it? In other words, do people like the clones mainly because it gives them a vehicle to publish modules for older rulesets?
Hypothetical yes, insightful perhaps.
You kill the fat guy. Most meat, least resistance. Of course, there is the problem of cooking a fattie in a rowboat in the middle of the ocean.
Quote from: Joethelawyer;357073And how does the ability to sell modules for older editions play into it? In other words, do people like the clones mainly because it gives them a vehicle to publish modules for older rulesets?
There are thousands of supposed players. There are less than a 100 people writing for OSR games and probably 20 or less who are selling anything. Check out Knockspell and Fight On magazine. You will mostly see the same two dozen contributers. For 99% of people who are enjoying the OSR, the publication aspect is meaningless except that they can get new stuff they enjoy...most of it for free.
The clones have the advantage of hindsight and modern computer tools so the rules are cleaner, the layout smoother and the art is also surprisingly good.
I have a much higher probability of getting someone to play S&W than if I handed them a mint condition PHB 1e. The free PDF is a powerful marketing tool, doubly so because its clear and concise.
Quote from: Spinachcat;357082You kill the fat guy. Most meat, least resistance. Of course, there is the problem of cooking a fattie in a rowboat in the middle of the ocean.
Fat guy Tartare?:p
Quote from: whydown;357090It seem interesting forum. i will come back very soon.keep it up guys
fuck off spammer
Quote from: Joethelawyer;357064If the price of having older editions on the mainstream bookstore shelves was that the clones could no longer be published---not even for free download---Would you agree to that price?
Does the answer change if you found out no one could publish any material for the older editions and charge for it without a lawsuit or some other costly legal consequence?
The question is academic, so I will respond with an academic "No".
There is only a minuscule chance that such a reprint wouldn't be a limited "nostalgia" pack, but a legitimate product line intended as a gateway for new people or as an alternative to more complex rulesets. But most of the time, it seems to me that this wish is people wanting Wizards of the Coast of all companies to come to them and say, "See, guys? This is because we
wuv you." Validation.
Even in the most optimal case, why would I personally sacrifice the shared creativity I get a value out of for something entirely dubious? Gaming, to me, is the friends I play with and the friends I correspond with. The rest can look after themselves, and live or die as they will. The question implies that such a sacrifice would be valuable, or even necessary to attain something publically important, while the alternative is selfish and somehow unfair to a lot of hypothetical people. Distilled, it is the dilemma of public good vs. individual good. But that's it, hypothetics. I can see no scenario where it would become a real, meaningful choice. So why ask it?
There is no value to me in any RPG books being on mainstream bookshelves. I have never looked for one there and never bought one from there.
What if you found out you could publish for 1st edition and WOTC/Hasbro had little if anything they could do about it? Would that finally set your mind at ease long enough to stop your legal hand-wringing and publish something?
Quote from: JoethelawyerI was wondering mainly if the love of the clones was, as many people said, based in the fact that it gets the books back on the shelves and gets more people playing---If that's the main point of them to many, then if WOTC were able to do it better, would people give up the clones? Or is it something else?
No, it's definitely something else. Most of the people that play these games already have all the 1st edition books they'll ever need. There is an element of providing new books for new players, but the real motivation IMO was to liberate those rules for our own and future generations' use.
Quote from: JoethelawyerAnd how does the ability to sell modules for older editions play into it? In other words, do people like the clones mainly because it gives them a vehicle to publish modules for older rulesets?
The rules are free. You could do pretty anything you want to do with them that you like - including selling or giving away a module or supplement. Again, commercial intent is not the real issue here - having that freedom to do anything you like is.
I find the initial question flawed. Can we not agree that there is no way to keep free versions out of circulation? It's only a matter of what back alleys of the internet such things would be pushed. This hypothetical is therefore more impossible than a "ten desert island games" thread. That aside, I think I would trade away the retroclones for old school D&D in the toy department. The old school scene scene is a lot less important than getting more people playing the games.
A straightforward answer is that I would welcome a new release of Classic D&D provided that current situation with authors allowing to publish their own supplements, and modules under the OGL can continue. The main point of the OSR is that we, not an individual or a corporation, can pursue our own vision of the World's most popular roleplaying game.
A more meaningful question would be what if Hasbro/Wizards decided to create and market a version of Classic D&D like Monopoly or Clue? It wouldn't be part of a product line but a standalone product at the level of complexity of the B/X version of D&D.
If this theoretical product sells enough to keep in the store as an evergreen product then my feeling is that a retro-clone will be developed to allow a OGL ruleset to emulate as close as legally possible the rules of Hasbro's Classic D&D and most (but not all) publishers will use that as the baseline for creating products.
What comes next will depend on whether Hasbro/Wizard legal sends out cease and desist letters. The more of a hassle it is to publish the more important the current retro-clones will become. If they get threatened then likely rules supplements will be reduced in diversity. The focus will be mostly adventures and settings using the d20 SRD but limiting themselves to a stat-lite format and only to those things that are found in Classic D&D.
If Hasbro/Wizard legal does not hassle the OSR publishers then it will continue as a cottage industry that grows a little each year. As various publishers save enough capital they will attempt more ambitious projects like the recent examples of Brave Halfling's Boxed Set and LoTFP's Boxed Set. If those project succeed then the next level will be attempted.
In the best case this will continue until the full range of RPG formats (hardcover, boxed set, poster maps, etc) is offered for older editions. In the worst case the publishers will fall back on to more sustainable formats.
The continued rise of the Internet and Internet related technologies will control the pace of this. The most critical of which is the quick sharing of what works and what doesn't.
Quote from: Joethelawyer;357064If the price of having older editions on the mainstream bookstore shelves was that the clones could no longer be published---not even for free download---Would you agree to that price?
No. Microlite74 and my upcoming Microlite75 (or whatever I end up calling it) will always be available for free. If they got sued out of existence (unlikely given the OGL) I would just come up with something with somewhat different mechanics that was a lot like 0e in feel but with more "serial numbers" filed off and make it available for free. Quite frankly, any company that cannot add enough value to their product to compete with a free fan designed and published product really doesn't deserve any profit they lose to the free product.
QuoteDoes the answer change if you found out no one could publish any material for the older editions and charge for it without a lawsuit or some other costly legal consequence?
See my answer above. However, I'd still keep putting out free stuff regardless even if the OGL somehow disappeared. Filing off the serial numbers worked for years and that was before the OGL.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;357072And if four men are starving in a rowboat in the middle of the ocean, is it moral for them to kill one of them and eat him? And if so, how do they choose which?
Yes.
First one to fall asleep.
No fire? Gorge yourself on the first day before he goes bad, then throw the rest over, saving some as bait. Keep him face down, it is less disturbing.
Quote from: jrients;357115I find the initial question flawed. Can we not agree that there is no way to keep free versions out of circulation? It's only a matter of what back alleys of the internet such things would be pushed. This hypothetical is therefore more impossible than a "ten desert island games" thread. That aside, I think I would trade away the retroclones for old school D&D in the toy department. The old school scene scene is a lot less important than getting more people playing the games.
Absolutely right. The real victory would be if a new, mass-produced, non-"special/collectors/limited edition" but rather a regular release of a "Classic D&D" were to come out from WoTC.
I'd hunt down and destroy every last copy of "labyrinth lord" myself, if it would result in that.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditAbsolutely right. The real victory would be if a new, mass-produced, non-"special/collectors/limited edition" but rather a regular release of a "Classic D&D" were to come out from WoTC.
I'd hunt down and destroy every last copy of "labyrinth lord" myself, if it would result in that.
So, after 30 years of failing to deliver that game, you'd still prefer WoTC because they're "official"? Goodness, Pundit, that's pretty un-progressive.
As an aside, imagine this conversation on another forum:
Fab4Pundit: I'd rather a regular album from Ringo and Paul on Apple. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last bootleg and import if it would result in that.
CompuPundit: I'd rather a regular update of Internet Explorer from Microsoft. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last copy of Firefox if it would result in that.
MythosPundit: I'd rather comprehensive reprints from Arkham House. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Lovecraft e-book on the net if it would result in that.
BiblicalPundit: I'd rather an official Vulgate printing from the Vatican. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Gideon if it would result in that.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Quote from: RPGPundit;357273Absolutely right. The real victory would be if a new, mass-produced, non-"special/collectors/limited edition" but rather a regular release of a "Classic D&D" were to come out from WoTC.
The problem is what would such a release actually
be? If it's a straight reprint of 1E AD&D or the D&D Rules Cyclopedia or B/X/C/M sets then that's way more backwards-looking that even the Cloners. If it's instead a modernized/cleaned up/re-edited/reworked version, who's going to do the modernizing,/cleaning up/re-editing/reworking? We've already seen WotC's idea of a properly and appropriately modernized/cleaned up/re-edited/reworked version of D&D, and it's called 4E.
Quote from: Kellri;357280As an aside, imagine this conversation on another forum:
Fab4Pundit: I'd rather a regular album from Ringo and Paul on Apple. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last bootleg and import if it would result in that.
CompuPundit: I'd rather a regular update of Internet Explorer from Microsoft. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last copy of Firefox if it would result in that.
MythosPundit: I'd rather comprehensive reprints from Arkham House. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Lovecraft e-book on the net if it would result in that.
BiblicalPundit: I'd rather an official Vulgate printing from the Vatican. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Gideon if it would result in that.
:teehee:
Quote from: Kellri;357280So, after 30 years of failing to deliver that game, you'd still prefer WoTC because they're "official"? Goodness, Pundit, that's pretty un-progressive.
As an aside, imagine this conversation on another forum:
Fab4Pundit: I'd rather a regular album from Ringo and Paul on Apple. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last bootleg and import if it would result in that.
CompuPundit: I'd rather a regular update of Internet Explorer from Microsoft. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last copy of Firefox if it would result in that.
MythosPundit: I'd rather comprehensive reprints from Arkham House. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Lovecraft e-book on the net if it would result in that.
BiblicalPundit: I'd rather an official Vulgate printing from the Vatican. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Gideon if it would result in that.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
You're not understanding. Its not about "officialness". Its about having the capacity to mass-distribute the game to a new generation.
RPGPundit
QuoteYou're not understanding. Its not about "officialness". Its about having the capacity to mass-distribute the game to a new generation.
WoTC is in the business of mass-MARKETING. Mass-distribution OTOH, is what you're seeing with the retro-clones. If that distribution wasn't working, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Quote from: Kellri;357394WoTC is in the business of mass-MARKETING. Mass-distribution OTOH, is what you're seeing with the retro-clones. If that distribution wasn't working, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
WOTC is in mass-distribution. I can find WOTC products even in German game shops everywhere.
OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord, Mutant Future ... not so much.
Though there will be a German edition of
LL --
"Herr der Labyrinthe" -- in regular (game store, not mass-) distribution soon.
No matter what, the question is still along the lines of "Do you want world peace at the cost of dismantling your armed forces?"
The proper answer is always: "Sure. You first."
Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeWOTC is in mass-distribution. I can find WOTC products even in German game shops everywhere.
OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord, Mutant Future ... not so much. Though there will be a German edition of LL -- "Herr der Labyrinthe" -- in regular (game store, not mass-) distribution soon.
But only insofar as mass-distribution leads to mass(ive) profit potential. And that profit potential is what has made foreign-language translations both a very low priority and costly. The retro-clones represent an open opportunity for anyone, anywhere to do their own translation, print and sell it in their own country or abroad. In a country like China or Vietnam, I've had good quality, shop-bound books printed in quantity. LL for example costs me around $1.75/copy.
AFAIK, LL already has a couple of foreign language versions, and S&W is in the process of being translated. So far, no one has attempted OSRIC (but I've prepared a few template notes in Mandarin before failing my SAN check).
Quote from: Kellri;357423AFAIK, LL already has a couple of foreign language versions, and S&W is in the process of being translated. So far, no one has attempted OSRIC (but I've prepared a few template notes in Mandarin before failing my SAN check).
There's a French translation of Microlite74 in the works. I've been told there is a Russian translation floating around, although I've never seen it or I would provide a download or a link to one on my web site.
Quote from: MelanNo matter what, the question is still along the lines of "Do you want world peace at the cost of dismantling your armed forces?"
The proper answer is always: "Sure. You first."
Maybe the whole 'OSR story' should be told like an episode of 24. The agents of WoTC have but 1 day to stop embittered grognards from flooding the internet with free pdfs - which in the end turns out to be a twisted plot dreamt up in the HASBRO basement by the Vice-Pres. of Guerrilla Marketing in a misguided attempt to 'do what's right for the company'.
Quote from: Kellri;357394WoTC is in the business of mass-MARKETING. Mass-distribution OTOH, is what you're seeing with the retro-clones. If that distribution wasn't working, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Pundit's point is that the roleplaying industry needs a version of classic D&D in the mass market in order to be healthy. That the last couple of edition of D&D has cut of the game from the causal gamer. This version needs to be in toy stores packaged in a way that is attractive to the mom and pop consumer. I happen to agree with him on this point.
This version will not likely reignite a fad but will result in a steady stream of new gamers into the hobby to restore to make it a more sustainable industry for everybody from the top to the bottom.
What he is not getting is that it will have a minimal effect on the Old School Market as entrenched fanbases will allow Old School publishers to continue as before. Old School publishers are not going to be flocking the new classic D&D either unless it is released under the OGL.
If that happen then the Old School will probably be split in half. Half doing whatever they were doing before the release of classic D&D and the other half ramping up support for classic D&D. Plus you will see a increase in new publishers for classic D&D because now there an official version by Wizards they can use.
The fans who used the older books directly (like at Dragonsfoot and Knight-n-Knaves) and the collectors (like at Acaeum) will continue much as before. The only major problem is the slow increase in value and the increasing rarity of older physical copies. If Wizards reverse their PDF policy then this will cease being an issue for those who like to play the older edition directly.
Quote from: Kellri;357394WoTC is in the business of mass-MARKETING. Mass-distribution OTOH, is what you're seeing with the retro-clones. If that distribution wasn't working, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
No, mass distribution would be if you could buy Labyrinth Lord at Toys R' Us shelves.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;357535No, mass distribution would be if you could buy Labyrinth Lord at Toys R' Us shelves.
RPGPundit
Or better yet, Wal-Mart.