That's true, "stealing" is probably the more accurate word in this instance, given that he was paid to provide work, didn't provide it, and kept the money, with the justification that the person didn't come demanding it from him so that made it okay.  I'm unsure whether the victim in such a scenario is actually required to specifically request that the other party return their money before it becomes theft, but I am not a lawyer so perhaps Zak is correct here and is totally in the clear with the money he never returned.

No idea whatsoever, if it was my money I'd be all over him, saying "dude, can I have my money back?", and probably post all over the internet. I have so many stories. But whatever, not my circus, not my monkeys, there probably were reasons.

Quote from: Xaxus on December 23, 2024, 09:57:52 AMIf you gave money to someone you know and you want the money back, it's easy to make noise about it. If you don't want to put on your big boy pants and make noise, eh, it's your dollar and you decide how badly you want it. It's a dog-eat-dog economy but it works.

He wasn't given money.  He was paid money to do a job.  He refused to do the job and kept the money.  You are trying to blame this on the person who got ripped off because I he didn't make more noise about how he was ripped off or try harder to get his money back.

Quote from: Xaxus on December 25, 2024, 09:12:37 PMGuess I have a different idea about what constitutes cheating someone out of his money. My version involves cheating.

Cheating.  Conning.  Defrauding.  Whatever you want to call it, it's the same thing.  You are really trying to justify someone taking money and then refusing to do the work while keeping the money.  You are an utter assclown. 

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 25, 2024, 05:49:47 PM

Quote from: BadApple on December 25, 2024, 11:46:23 AM

Quote from: PsyClops on December 25, 2024, 11:43:21 AM

Quote from: BadApple on December 25, 2024, 07:28:41 AMI don't see him disavowing the ideology he was a part of that did this to him.

As soon as someone makes something up regardless of ideology, they have become a part of the hatemob.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElXi7yDHyWo&pp=ygUfYnJpdHRhbnkgc3BlYXJzIGxlYXZlIGhlciBhbG9uZQ%3D%3D

Do NOT put blind links to videos. This is your one warning about that.

I apologize.  My post didn't go as planned.  I wanted it to look like this but something went awry:

Quote from: PsyClops on December 25, 2024, 11:43:21 AM

Quote from: BadApple on December 25, 2024, 07:28:41 AMI don't see him disavowing the ideology he was a part of that did this to him.

As soon as someone makes something up regardless of ideology, they have become a part of the hatemob.

You cannot view this attachment.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 25, 2024, 05:05:30 PM

Quote from: Xaxus on December 25, 2024, 04:49:54 PMQuick question, would you rather be in the RPG hobby with people who are arrogant and condescending, or ones who are shy, insecure and forever terrified of hurting anyone's feelings?

I'd rather reject your pointless binary hypothetical and get on with playing games.

Agreed

Quote from: Xaxus on December 25, 2024, 09:12:37 PMGuess I have a different idea about what constitutes cheating someone out of his money. My version involves cheating.

Quick question, and in my view there is no right answer I'm just curious for opinions from you and others with this view:

When Ernest Gygax Jr. and Benoist were nearly a decade past the deadline on their Marmoreal Tomb Kickstarter, led people on year after year with promises of delivery which were broken, had to be bailed out by Troll Lord Games, and never delivered key goals of the Kickstarter like a 5e version, did you feel that involved actual cheating?

For me, it felt that way as someone who bought into the Kickstarter. But I can see people thinking their good intentions made it not cheating to keep the money and never deliver year after year.

It's certainly not the same issue as this one with Zak, but I also see similarities. He at least declared early on he would not be making the product. With the Tomb Kickstarter it was the opposite: frequent declarations it would be finished soon, that it had mostly been written before the Kickstarter even began which was untrue, and other methods of misleading people into thinking it would be delivered earlier than it was.

I should have used a different word since everyone is playing semantic games to avoid what everyone knew I meant.

Zak SWINDLED someone.

Also, when you pledge a Kickstarter, you risk the chance of losing your money to a scam or a failed fulfillment, and KS puts the responsibility on the backer.

You guys have funny ways of spending xmas. Here we go.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 25, 2024, 11:24:37 PMYou are trying to blame this on the person who got ripped off because I he didn't make more noise about how he was ripped off or try harder to get his money back.

Was it "I" or "he"? Looks like an important difference.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 25, 2024, 11:24:37 PMCheating.  Conning.  Defrauding.  Whatever you want to call it, it's the same thing.  You are really trying to justify someone taking money and then refusing to do the work while keeping the money.

Yeah, it's the same thing that didn't happen. People refuse to do the work while keeping the money all the time, there are whole paragraphs in contracts dedicated to it. I don't know how they agreed on that. If you do, tell us.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 26, 2024, 11:28:09 AMQuick question, and in my view there is no right answer I'm just curious for opinions from you and others with this view:

When Ernest Gygax Jr. and Benoist were nearly a decade past the deadline on their Marmoreal Tomb Kickstarter, led people on year after year with promises of delivery which were broken, had to be bailed out by Troll Lord Games, and never delivered key goals of the Kickstarter like a 5e version, did you feel that involved actual cheating?

Tough one, I'd have to dig in deeper to answer it, but at the first glance, I guess not? They definitely let people down, but they probably didn't sit down and say "Hey, I have a great idea - let's keep the money and not give those morons anything!"
Probably.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on December 26, 2024, 03:14:52 PMI should have used a different word since everyone is playing semantic games to avoid what everyone knew I meant.

Zak SWINDLED someone.

Also, when you pledge a Kickstarter, you risk the chance of losing your money to a scam or a failed fulfillment, and KS puts the responsibility on the backer.

Yeah you should have used a different word but you could do better and use one that actually fits. Once again, when you swindle, you go "Imma grab that fool's money and be happy", not "Hey you, I'm the guy who agreed to work with you and took your money, but I don't want to work with you anymore".
Tip of my tongue...

Quote from: Mistwell on December 26, 2024, 11:28:09 AMQuick question, and in my view there is no right answer I'm just curious for opinions from you and others with this view:

When Ernest Gygax Jr. and Benoist were nearly a decade past the deadline on their Marmoreal Tomb Kickstarter, led people on year after year with promises of delivery which were broken, had to be bailed out by Troll Lord Games, and never delivered key goals of the Kickstarter like a 5e version, did you feel that involved actual cheating?

There are some folks, if you give them the money up front they seem incapable of completing. A few musicians ran into this problem, sold off the next 10 albums then had writers block. Pretty much nobody should invest in a Kickstarter that isn't nearly done already. The money could be used for art, for making proper books, and for getting attention. Not to pay a staff to create a game from day 1.

Quote from: Xaxus on December 26, 2024, 03:45:08 PMWas it "I" or "he"? Looks like an important difference.

What a ridiculous, asinine thing to say.  What point are you even trying to make here?

Quote from: Xaxus on December 26, 2024, 03:45:08 PMYeah, it's the same thing that didn't happen. People refuse to do the work while keeping the money all the time, there are whole paragraphs in contracts dedicated to it. I don't know how they agreed on that. If you do, tell us.

First you try to justify it.  Then, in the same post, you claim it didn't happen.  Now you are claiming that it's somehow normal.  What's next?  The old "...and it's a good thing"?  I very much doubt that they agreed on that.  It's more likely that one of them decided to do that while the other decided that it was not worth the time or trouble it would take to get the money back.  Of course, this should not have been necessary since an ethical person would not have taken money to do a job, refused to do the job and then kept the money. 

Quote from: Xaxus on December 26, 2024, 03:45:08 PMTough one, I'd have to dig in deeper to answer it, but at the first glance, I guess not? They definitely let people down, but they probably didn't sit down and say "Hey, I have a great idea - let's keep the money and not give those morons anything!"
Probably.

Do you think that actually matters?

Quote from: Xaxus on December 26, 2024, 03:45:08 PMYeah you should have used a different word but you could do better and use one that actually fits. Once again, when you swindle, you go "Imma grab that fool's money and be happy", not "Hey you, I'm the guy who agreed to work with you and took your money, but I don't want to work with you anymore".
Tip of my tongue...

Do you think this distinction actually matters?  If you take someone's money and then decide that you don't want to work with them anymore, what do you do?  You return the money.  You don't refuse to do the work and keep the money.  The former is taking a principled stance.  The latter is breach of contract. 

Quote from: Mistwell on December 26, 2024, 11:28:09 AM

Quote from: Xaxus on December 25, 2024, 09:12:37 PMGuess I have a different idea about what constitutes cheating someone out of his money. My version involves cheating.

Quick question, and in my view there is no right answer I'm just curious for opinions from you and others with this view:

When Ernest Gygax Jr. and Benoist were nearly a decade past the deadline on their Marmoreal Tomb Kickstarter, led people on year after year with promises of delivery which were broken, had to be bailed out by Troll Lord Games, and never delivered key goals of the Kickstarter like a 5e version, did you feel that involved actual cheating?

For me, it felt that way as someone who bought into the Kickstarter. But I can see people thinking their good intentions made it not cheating to keep the money and never deliver year after year.

It's certainly not the same issue as this one with Zak, but I also see similarities. He at least declared early on he would not be making the product. With the Tomb Kickstarter it was the opposite: frequent declarations it would be finished soon, that it had mostly been written before the Kickstarter even began which was untrue, and other methods of misleading people into thinking it would be delivered earlier than it was.

Yes, I consider someone who takes peoples' money on a kickstarter and delivers nothing to have cheated them.  Whether it was through malice or incompetence isn't really relevant to the end result, and in either case it's on the publisher's head at the end of the day.  Not that I'm unsympathetic to unexpected cost overruns in small business, but it's literally the job of a publisher to correctly plan for those.  And if, on the other hand, some true act of God scuttles a project like the author kicking the bucket, there should be refunds to the backers for whatever cash is left on hand.

Quote from: Valatar on December 26, 2024, 05:05:15 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 26, 2024, 11:28:09 AM

Quote from: Xaxus on December 25, 2024, 09:12:37 PMGuess I have a different idea about what constitutes cheating someone out of his money. My version involves cheating.

Quick question, and in my view there is no right answer I'm just curious for opinions from you and others with this view:

When Ernest Gygax Jr. and Benoist were nearly a decade past the deadline on their Marmoreal Tomb Kickstarter, led people on year after year with promises of delivery which were broken, had to be bailed out by Troll Lord Games, and never delivered key goals of the Kickstarter like a 5e version, did you feel that involved actual cheating?

For me, it felt that way as someone who bought into the Kickstarter. But I can see people thinking their good intentions made it not cheating to keep the money and never deliver year after year.

It's certainly not the same issue as this one with Zak, but I also see similarities. He at least declared early on he would not be making the product. With the Tomb Kickstarter it was the opposite: frequent declarations it would be finished soon, that it had mostly been written before the Kickstarter even began which was untrue, and other methods of misleading people into thinking it would be delivered earlier than it was.

Yes, I consider someone who takes peoples' money on a kickstarter and delivers nothing to have cheated them.  Whether it was through malice or incompetence isn't really relevant to the end result, and in either case it's on the publisher's head at the end of the day.  Not that I'm unsympathetic to unexpected cost overruns in small business, but it's literally the job of a publisher to correctly plan for those.  And if, on the other hand, some true act of God scuttles a project like the author kicking the bucket, there should be refunds to the backers for whatever cash is left on hand.

IIRC there was, not so long ago, a game developer's widow who, after the passing of her husband, managed to get the game finished, published and delivered.

That's the high bar, if there ever was a case for a crowdfunding justifiably not delivering that was it.

Now, Zak took the money, then came up with BS "reasons" (IMHO) to not deliver the work and didn't even had the morals and ethic to give the money back. Sorry not sorry that's swindling.

Greetings!

I bet our society would have far fewer thieves and swindlers if such dishonest, smarmy scum were given a swimming lesson inside a Cement Mixer. They should suffer severely.

Concerning Kickstarters, yeah, I know they warn you upfront about it. Fine. Just never do business with such scum again. That's sad though, as well. Even if there are squirmy legal loopholes for such fake Kickstarter people that don't deliver--they too, should be punished and suffer severely.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 26, 2024, 05:26:17 PMNow, Zak took the money, then came up with BS "reasons" (IMHO) to not deliver the work and didn't even had the morals and ethic to give the money back. Sorry not sorry that's swindling.

It's beyond that.  It's Zak took the money, then didn't deliver the work, and cited his prejudice as the reason to keep the money because screwing others in the name of fascism = morals.  To me, that's beyond plain ordinary swindling.

Where is the proof and evidence to back up your accusations? You have none. Again, the spreading of misinformation and lies.