If you gave money to someone you know and you want the money back, it's easy to make noise about it. If you don't want to put on your big boy pants and make noise, eh, it's your dollar and you decide how badly you want it. It's a dog-eat-dog economy but it works.

Quote from: Zak S on December 18, 2024, 10:53:38 AMOf course they do. Nerds distrust anything novel.

...

-Most people think if a creator is posting it's mainly because they want someone to buy their RPG material

-Most people think that the RPG material is their source of income--or that they want it to be.

-Most people think that making the RPG material is the creative job they want to have.

As someone whose stated purpose is to "fact check" and stop the spread of misinformation, certainly you can provide the evidence to justify these sweeping generalized statements. There's no way you'd just make up assumptions without the justifiable due diligence. I'm sure the studies done to reach these conclusions would be of great interest.

Reading through this thread, which does it really need to keep going?

Here's my take:

1. People not directly involved in discussions over RPG contracted work have little to add to this convo and any info they add is likely misinformation based on assumptions. So many people on here are making gross assumptions, having opinions about it -- and then spreading that opinion. Opinion isn't fact.

Zak seems to be pointing this out and getting slack for it---- which is strange --- that strangers are fighting over facts of conversations/or decisions/or game groups -- or anything else that they weren't involved in or privy to.

Zak's quote above about "nerds distrusting anything novel" -- is being proven in. real. time. on. this. thread.

I don't know about everyone buuut I'm a nerd and I have a hard time trusting novel stuff, so yeah

lol. me too.

Quote from: katiefol on Today at 12:54:49 PMZak's quote above about "nerds distrusting anything novel" -- is being proven in. real. time. on. this. thread.

No, the population of this forum,let alone the only dozen or so people participating in this thread, does not constitute a significant enough fraction of a percentage point to make an informed assumption let alone anything resembling what could be called proof.

Quote, certainly you can provide the evidence to justify these sweeping generalized statements

Ok, here are the incidents that made me come this this conclusion:

Quote from: strollofturtle on Today at 11:19:05 AMOf course they do. Nerds distrust anything novel.

I began my blog in 2009. Literally any time I announced a project or idea at odds with the usual practice, the nerds reacted with distrust. When a thing turned out to work, later, they didn't then go "Well I'll be darned, so sorry" they just pretended they never said anything of the sort.

D&D with Pornstars blog: "Oh that can't be real", "They'll hate it", "Girls can't play D&D"

Show where people watch people playing D&D: "Why would anyone watch other people play D&D?"

Working with James: "Oh James is publishing the D&D w/pornstars guy and Geoffrey from Carcosa, he has doomed his publishing empire, he's just courting controversy"

RPG book based on Lewis Carroll "Gygax already did this, it won't work, no-one will like it"

Playing RPGs over Zoom "No-one will enjoy that"

James having a pencil and dice in his Grindhouse Box Set "What the fuck is there a pencil for?"

Ideas I proposed on my blog to WOTC: "Oh WOTC will never listen to you"

Paying a percentage of sales instead of a flat rate: "There's not enough money in RPGs to make that viable"

My proposal for this book "Nobody's going to do all that stuff to get that book" "Nobody would pay 1000$ for that book"

5th Edition D&D itself "It'll never work"

OSR products being nominated for awards and that resulting in those products making money and the creators going pro "Oh awards don't matter"

See also: BadApple below ascribing ideas at odds with their own to "substance abuse".

In fact, there are several RPG word trolls whose entire schtick is to take any news of anything that sticks out or looks like a tall poppy and shit on it and then pretend they didn't after it's successful

Quote-Most people think if a creator is posting it's mainly because they want someone to buy their RPG material

Every time someone would lie on the internet and  someone would correct it, one common response was "Oh they must have a book coming out" rather than the Occam's Razor position that a bunch of people who talk on the internet all the time would quite naturally note when their idea was at variance with someone else's.

When Mark Diaz Truman asked his fellow storygamers to stop acting like paranoid psychopaths toward people outside their game scene, there were those that reacted that he must have a project coming out.

One of the original inciting incendents for all this online hate falls into this category: a pair of pearl-clutchy gamers attacked the women in my group for being in Maxim, I said they had no proof this caused any problem at all, they then claimed later I simply said this to (somehow?) drive traffic to my RPG business.

Literally any time I have seen any game designer in any way came to anyone's attention who isn't in their normal online circle for any reason, some nerd would claim it was "self-promotion" rather than just talking liek we all do all the time.

Quote-Most people think that the RPG material is their source of income--or that they want it to be.

Quote-Most people think that making the RPG material is the creative job they want to have.

Since all this began I have seen dozens of comments to the effect that anything I do is about angling for some money-making position in RPGs despite the fact it's never been a secret that I'm a painter or what the prices of my paintings are.

Incidental details of my work or lawsuits are explained in terms of trying to court this or that RPG audience.

This essay, where I am critical of the entire online RPG discourse, including Dennis Dettwiller (who I do not like and who does not like me)
 https://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2021/05/gamers-punching-themselves-in-face.html was explained by one gamer as me trying to get a job with Dennis Detwiller.

Truly there are many nerds who simply cannot conceive of the idea of someone doing something they themselves would not simply because it seems like a good idea at the time or the right thing to do.

Most nerds? No idea: that would require research I cannot do.

Is there always and fairly reliably a nerd on the spot to offer some preposterous interpretation of anything that is unusual that catched their attention? Especially if it catches their attention unwillingly? In my experience: yes. This happens basically every time.

QuoteNo, the population of this forum,let alone the only dozen or so people participating in this thread, does not constitute a significant enough fraction of a percentage point to make an informed assumption let alone anything resembling what could be called proof.

Exactly. People here who spread un-informed assumptions (that Zak is brigading, which is false), without proof ---- seems to be exactly what the *main* argument in this thread is about. 

Like any of you noobs would know what this forum is like from this thread or the week that you've been here.  Any push back that Zak gets here is far more restrained than other platforms and generally on things that he brings up here or has done in public. 

He's been here for years and has had more than one ongoing disagreement.  He's not a hypothetical non person being talked about but a forum member that gets into verbal sparring matches.  No one is calling for bad things to happen to him or for him to be silenced.  There are people he's developed a bit of a contentious relationship with though so that will come out.

A lot of what is taken as misunderstandings are in fact how people have taken Zak's own words over time here.  He's his own worst enemy sometimes.  He's said a few things in this thread that make me think he's making judgements on how things work and how things are valued through a haze of substance abuse.

As far as his stuff, I've seen some of it over the years and the guy does have talent.  IMO, He shines best when he has a collaborator that tempers him a bit; The Blue Medusa is a good example.  His solo works seem to me to be less stellar than they could be.

If you are a fan of his and his works, then by all means you are welcome here.  But the same freedom to laud him that you're give is also given to his critics.

Quote from: katiefol on Today at 01:28:21 PM

QuoteNo, the population of this forum,let alone the only dozen or so people participating in this thread, does not constitute a significant enough fraction of a percentage point to make an informed assumption let alone anything resembling what could be called proof.

Exactly. People here who spread un-informed assumptions (that Zak is brigading, which is false), without proof ---- seems to be exactly what the *main* argument in this thread is about.

The post in the OP looks a lot like brigading instructions that have leaked in the past from incidents that have been verified.  It is fully legitimate to examine things and call things into question.  Earned or not, Zak doesn't have the strongest reputation so it shouldn't be surprising that there would be skeptical opinions expressed.

Quote from: BadApple on Today at 01:40:31 PM

Quote from: katiefol on Today at 01:28:21 PM

QuoteNo, the population of this forum,let alone the only dozen or so people participating in this thread, does not constitute a significant enough fraction of a percentage point to make an informed assumption let alone anything resembling what could be called proof.

Exactly. People here who spread un-informed assumptions (that Zak is brigading, which is false), without proof ---- seems to be exactly what the *main* argument in this thread is about.

The post in the OP looks a lot like brigading instructions that have leaked in the past from incidents that have been verified.  It is fully legitimate to examine things and call things into question.  Earned or not, Zak doesn't have the strongest reputation so it shouldn't be surprising that there would be skeptical opinions expressed.

Is/ought fallacy.

It is normal and expected on the internet to accuse without proof. It doesn't make it right.

I'm saying the behavior is shitty, not unexpected.

Quote from: katiefol on Today at 01:28:21 PM

QuoteNo, the population of this forum,let alone the only dozen or so people participating in this thread, does not constitute a significant enough fraction of a percentage point to make an informed assumption let alone anything resembling what could be called proof.

Exactly. People here who spread un-informed assumptions (that Zak is brigading, which is false), without proof ---- seems to be exactly what the *main* argument in this thread is about.

So it would be irony for Zak to be doing the same thing. Spreading misinformation by making uninformed generalizations about a population. Since Zak is very strongly opposed to such things, obviously he has access to some comprehensive studies that inform those statements, otherwise they'd just be an example of, well, ignorant prejudice. I look forward to seeing his proof.

Quote from: strollofturtle on Today at 01:45:05 PM

Quote from: katiefol on Today at 01:28:21 PM

QuoteNo, the population of this forum,let alone the only dozen or so people participating in this thread, does not constitute a significant enough fraction of a percentage point to make an informed assumption let alone anything resembling what could be called proof.

Exactly. People here who spread un-informed assumptions (that Zak is brigading, which is false), without proof ---- seems to be exactly what the *main* argument in this thread is about.

So it would be irony for Zak to be doing the same thing. Spreading misinformation by making uninformed generalizations about a population. Since Zak is very strongly opposed to such things, obviously he has access to some comprehensive studies that inform those statements, otherwise they'd just be an example of, well, ignorant prejudice. I look forward to seeing his proof.

You'd have a point if I said "All nerds" rather than "nerds".

Again, saying "people go to Disneyland" does not imply all people do.

There's probably some article or other about Hasbro or some other big game bro estimating how thrilled people are to get their new stuff. If reddit is any indication, people are usually hating on new game stuff.

Quote from: Zak S on Today at 01:24:12 PMOk, here are the incidents that made me come this this conclusion:

A scattered handful of incidents interacting with less than .0000000000000000000000001% of the population that could be justifiably be considered "nerds", let alone the statements about "most people" which opens it up to the entire population of the planet is the basis for your conclusions?

That is not logical or factual reasoning. That's the anti-intellectual approach that informs biases, prejudices, sexism, misogyny and racism.

A person's personal experiences are too severely limited in scope to base any assumptions about millions (let alone billions) of people.