Interesting, i'm starting to notice a difference between people on this site ...
The ones that tend to show off the most with their knowledge and brilliance often also seems to be the ones that, when faced with opposite viewpoints, first just says "No, it is not like that", but as the argumenter of the different viewpont goes on, they sadly lose all arguments, and resorts to troll-behavior, or similar.

I was wondering if perhaps Rpg.net might be better anyway, and then i read the responses from gattsuru, Géza Echs, and jhkim, people who both nuance the ideas, and at least partially, if not fully, understands my viewpoint.
.... And so, i decide to stay ....

Now back to the real Topic here ...

Daddy Warpig, i like how you take that piece of scientific piece on the deluge, and runs with it.
However ...
If the deep ones were responsible, then how could a HUMAN get a warning well in time to build the Ark?

There is also something about ancient Egypt having 2 Different deluge legends ...

Personally, i really think the reverse of the "Mythos":
It is a mockery of ancient myths, only designed to strike fear and terror into the hearts of Allies and Enemies alike.
.... And it does that pretty well.
The fact that it includes more truth than the earthen myths only helps further its reliabilty.
And since we are talking about Deluge and the times of the Ark here, you could even weave in Marduk as a powerful (and powerhungry?) ruler that perhaps even caused the Deluge in the first place, instead of fighting against the water-dwellers, which the Earth-myth claims he did.

However, even though it holds more true info than the earth-myths, It is still not the truth.

Quote from: Catelf;633104Daddy Warpig, i like how you take that piece of scientific piece on the deluge, and runs with it.

Thanks for the compliment.

Note: I'm not claiming a scientific basis for the Biblical Flood in the real world. That part is there to fit into the "Earth myths, but not really" aspect of the Mythos.

I'm just pointing out a peculiar geological feature, and what-iffing it. The Deep Ones undoubtedly know more than us about geology, including the (to coin a term) Deep Wells. So, they open up the Deep Wells, to flood the surface.

Come on, if you were a Deep One, and wanted to conquer the world, how else would you do it?

Deluge it is.

Quote from: Catelf;633104If the deep ones were responsible, then how could a HUMAN get a warning well in time to build the Ark?

That's the question, around which the campaign would revolve.

What really happened 5000 BC? How did "Noah" figure out how to survive?

And why did the Deep Ones' plan fail?

And how can we use that information to make it fail again?

That's the spine of the campaign.

If the Mythos is reduced to tentacle monsters, then yes it has run its course. If, however, it remains about "everything you know is wrong" and "humans are meaningless" and hopeless madness, then there is a lot of life left to it.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;633108Thanks for the compliment.

Note: I'm not claiming a scientific basis for the Biblical Flood in the real world. That part is there to fit into the "Earth myths, but not really" aspect of the Mythos.

I'm just pointing out a peculiar geological feature, and what-iffing it. The Deep Ones undoubtedly know more than us about geology, including the (to coin a term) Deep Wells. So, they open up the Deep Wells, to flood the surface.

Come on, if you were a Deep One, and wanted to conquer the world, how else would you do it?

Deluge it is.


That's the question, around which the campaign would revolve.

What really happened 5000 BC? How did "Noah" figure out how to survive?

And why did the Deep Ones' plan fail?

And how can we use that information to make it fail again?

That's the spine of the campaign.

Well, from what i know, and i'm not a "bible-faith type", geologists has found a layer of "flooding", at least in the midterranean area, and there are deluge legends practically in myths all around the world.

Hm ...
One part of the Marduk legend is that he somehow dragged up the Moon from the ocean ....
The moon is known to cause flow ...
However, the moon's name in that case was Chandra, i think, and i once envisioned CHANDRA as an advanced scientific reseach-station in space, rather than as a "moon".
Feel free to work with that idea, too

Hm ....
According to a book i have on myths ... in one Celtic Deluge legent, there was supposed to have been a big red moon ... that then exploded ...

I do think extradimensional/extraterrestial forces must have helped the humans, if it really was the Deep ones that were responsible for the Great Deluge ...

It can be combined with a typical adventure though, like:
"A couple of orbs around the world has been placed so they manifests a giant red sphere, and this sphere is what is causing the Deluge.
Find the orbs, and destroy them."

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;633000And then, in defiance of rationality and the laws of physics, the waves rise and inundate a land. Suddenly, Manhattan Island is under water, and only the peaks of the skyscrapers remain above the waves. People crowd the tops of the buildings, hoping against hope for rescue, while others drown beneath the deep, green sea and Deep Ones enter the city and begin climbing the towers.

Surely those are the weapons of a Lovecraftian World War.

That is completely epic, as mythos weapons should be, the combination of mind bending flood physics and the visceral image of Deep Ones physically climbing the skyscrapers, perfect. You need to think on a different scale with these guys.

Quote from: The Traveller;633157That is completely epic, as mythos weapons should be,

Thank you, sir. :hatsoff:

Quote from: TristramEvans;632926That Lovecraft was racist is really incidental to the whole thing.

The racism of Lovecraft, and R.E. Howard, Edgar Rice Burrows and arguably even the Good Professor Tolkien was largely a product of the society which produced the men. It was even backed by the "popular science" of the day.

In any event, in the same way it should be possible to read Lovecraft, Howard, Burrows, and the Good Professor Tolkien and cope enough with the either implicit or explicit racism to still enjoy the stories, it should be possible to employ the Mythos without racism.

Except for the Deep Ones. They really are a bunch of horrible fuckers.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;633207The racism of Lovecraft, and R.E. Howard, Edgar Rice Burrows and arguably even the Good Professor Tolkien was largely a product of the society which produced the men.

As are the standards today - what constitutes racism seems to evolve as well.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;633111If the Mythos is reduced to tentacle monsters, then yes it has run its course. If, however, it remains about "everything you know is wrong" and "humans are meaningless" and hopeless madness, then there is a lot of life left to it.

It seems to me that Cthulhu gaming has been about fighting monsters for a long time.  Just about every Call of Cthulhu scenario has that you use some combination of firearms and spells to kill monsters and cultists and thus prevent their outbreak.  The rule is simple - if it is a monster or strange artifact, you have to destroy it or bad things will happen.  I don't think that is completely in line with Lovecraft's stories, nor does it really represent either of "everything you know is wrong" or "humans are meaningless".  

I like the idea of breaking out of this pattern.

Quote from: jhkim;633221It seems to me that Cthulhu gaming has been about fighting monsters for a long time.  Just about every Call of Cthulhu scenario has that you use some combination of firearms and spells to kill monsters and cultists and thus prevent their outbreak.  The rule is simple - if it is a monster or strange artifact, you have to destroy it or bad things will happen.  I don't think that is completely in line with Lovecraft's stories, nor does it really represent either of "everything you know is wrong" or "humans are meaningless".  

I like the idea of breaking out of this pattern.

I completely agree. I am working on a system right now that stresses those themes.

For the last several years, Ive run a game at PaizoCon called Failed Sanity Check. It is a direct sequel to one of HPL's most famous stories. The game starts with everyone getting a picture of a crazy guy in a straight jacket (you can pick your crazy). You figure out who you are as time goes on. Its canned 4 hour event, but having run it several times, Ive gotten feedback on how to make it more like a real RPG.

Ive used Don't Rest Your Head as a system for this, but its insufficient for defining details of your character, or the psychological elements. CoC's sanity system is just too linear and artificial, whereas something like UA's Madness Meters have no effect on each other. Ill be posting a free something within the next 1-2 months. Tentacles are optional. 1920s is optional.

Personally I'm more disposed towards having Lovecraftian tendencies in my Games - "Lovecraft lite" - than full on CoC. Hellboy and Kane type stuff basically. Wich would mean, monsterkilling with cosmic background, but not full on HPL Horror.

Again, the Deep Ones without the reality-warping otherness are no longer the Mythos.. they're just the Sea Devils/Silurians from Doctor Who.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Géza Echs;632972It's a bit frustrating to see Sagan mixed up with a confusion of Lovecraft and his narrator. Lovecraft believed no such thing as said in what you've got bolded there - his narrator for "The Call of Cthulhu" did. Lovecraft believed that we would continue going on discovering more and more of the universe without issue, barring the occasional risk of self-destruction from advanced technology.

Yes, Lovecraft didn't believe in Cthulhu either, but we're talking about the basis for his Mythos and "Lovecraftian Horror", not the man's personal convictions.

Quote from: TristramEvans;633541Yes, Lovecraft didn't believe in Cthulhu either, but we're talking about the basis for his Mythos and "Lovecraftian Horror", not the man's personal convictions.

Then the quote I was responding to shouldn't conflate the beliefs of HPL's narrator for HPL's own, should it?

Quote from: Géza Echs;633687Then the quote I was responding to shouldn't conflate the beliefs of HPL's narrator for HPL's own, should it?

You mean the quote by Carl Sagan, or the quote by Lovecraft about his own Mythos?