Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 04:53:20 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
So the creator and IP holder isn't selling due to his own stupidity? Okay.

He seemed nice enough in his messages. The last we spoke he said he just wasn't interested in maintaining an IP from the early 2000s because he had real life to deal with. That's a pretty common answer I get whenever I talk to people about stuff they wrote 10, 20 or more years ago. "I have too much real life stuff to deal with, so I can't be bothered with this stuff I wrote decades ago."

Most writers just aren't interested in preserving their legacy for future generations. They just don't consider it important enough to go through the insane hassle involved. Most of our cultural output from the 20th century onward is not being preserved due to overly long copyright terms and that is gonna leave a noticeable gap in historical and literary records. A century or two from now it's gonna be easy to find something published in 1923 but extremely difficult or impossible to find something published in 2023.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
That DTRPG refuses to fix something they should be fixing IS BS, or is this something IN the PDF? If it's the latter then it's up to the author to fix it.

I don't know the exact details. The creator submitted a new PDF and drivethrurpg still says its broken. I downloaded the PDF myself (I was fortunate enough to have bought it before the takedown) and there's no problem with the file. I don't know what has drivethru's knickers in a twist. They stopped returning my messages. I haven't been able to get in contact with the creator again.

The only part of the book I liked were the space travel rules and the tables for system generation anyway.

The reason I liked the space travel rules was because, unlike something like spelljammer, they weren't dependent on magic so you could load them into low magic settings or even steampunk settings. The author/owner invented some fake fantasy physics involving "ether" and a fantastical version of electricity called "flux". Ether was almost everywhere and concentrated at different densities on planets, in outer space, at the edge of systems (it created a pseudo-crystal sphere called the "pale ether"), and in interstellar space (the "traverse" where FTL travel was possible). Normally ether didn't interact with matter at all. But by running an electric current through wires made of certain metals, ether would repel the wires with force sufficient to counter gravity. You stick these wires to the back of a sail, you've created a ship that can fly thru the sky and even reach escape velocity. Various other machines used flux to generate power (a "flux capacitor"), generate gravity, scrub atmosphere, and lightning guns. The repulsion produced by ether scaled inversely with its concentration, so interstellar space (the lowest concentration of ether) would push ships at FTL speeds. The pale ether at the edge of systems created a natural barrier: you had to disable your flux capacitor to travel through it, otherwise the passage would shred everything conducting flux current at the moment of impact. An idiom for entering interstellar space was, naturally, "beyond the pale."

Quite frankly, recycling his ether and flux concepts probably wouldn't run afoul of copyright at all. You can't copyright an idea. The names are straight up references to Victorian outdated scientific hypothesis and the movie Back To The Future.

All this bullshit is why I'm gonna release my work into public domain. I don't want to waste my time on the hassle involved in maintaining it by myself. Let Internet Archive, Project Gutenberg, Wikisource, etc do it. I can't take my money into the grave, so I might as well leave a legacy.

Have you tried convincing him of putting it in the public domain? Or giving you permision to mantain/publish it?

Those mechanics can be reworked to put them in the public domain, send them to me and I'll do it for you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:00:25 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 04:53:20 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
So the creator and IP holder isn't selling due to his own stupidity? Okay.

He seemed nice enough in his messages. The last we spoke he said he just wasn't interested in maintaining an IP from the early 2000s because he had real life to deal with. That's a pretty common answer I get whenever I talk to people about stuff they wrote 10, 20 or more years ago. "I have too much real life stuff to deal with, so I can't be bothered with this stuff I wrote decades ago."

Most writers just aren't interested in preserving their legacy for future generations. They just don't consider it important enough to go through the insane hassle involved. Most of our cultural output from the 20th century onward is not being preserved due to overly long copyright terms and that is gonna leave a noticeable gap in historical and literary records. A century or two from now it's gonna be easy to find something published in 1923 but extremely difficult or impossible to find something published in 2023.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
That DTRPG refuses to fix something they should be fixing IS BS, or is this something IN the PDF? If it's the latter then it's up to the author to fix it.

I don't know the exact details. The creator submitted a new PDF and drivethrurpg still says its broken. I downloaded the PDF myself (I was fortunate enough to have bought it before the takedown) and there's no problem with the file. I don't know what has drivethru's knickers in a twist. They stopped returning my messages. I haven't been able to get in contact with the creator again.

The only part of the book I liked were the space travel rules and the tables for system generation anyway.

The reason I liked the space travel rules was because, unlike something like spelljammer, they weren't dependent on magic so you could load them into low magic settings or even steampunk settings. The author/owner invented some fake fantasy physics involving "ether" and a fantastical version of electricity called "flux". Ether was almost everywhere and concentrated at different densities on planets, in outer space, at the edge of systems (it created a pseudo-crystal sphere called the "pale ether"), and in interstellar space (the "traverse" where FTL travel was possible). Normally ether didn't interact with matter at all. But by running an electric current through wires made of certain metals, ether would repel the wires with force sufficient to counter gravity. You stick these wires to the back of a sail, you've created a ship that can fly thru the sky and even reach escape velocity. Various other machines used flux to generate power (a "flux capacitor"), generate gravity, scrub atmosphere, and lightning guns. The repulsion produced by ether scaled inversely with its concentration, so interstellar space (the lowest concentration of ether) would push ships at FTL speeds. The pale ether at the edge of systems created a natural barrier: you had to disable your flux capacitor to travel through it, otherwise the passage would shred everything conducting flux current at the moment of impact. An idiom for entering interstellar space was, naturally, "beyond the pale."

Quite frankly, recycling his ether and flux concepts probably wouldn't run afoul of copyright at all. You can't copyright an idea. The names are straight up references to Victorian outdated scientific hypothesis and the movie Back To The Future.

All this bullshit is why I'm gonna release my work into public domain. I don't want to waste my time on the hassle involved in maintaining it by myself. Let Internet Archive, Project Gutenberg, Wikisource, etc do it. I can't take my money into the grave, so I might as well leave a legacy.

Have you tried convincing him of putting it in the public domain? Or giving you permision to mantain/publish it?

Those mechanics can be reworked to put them in the public domain, send them to me and I'll do it for you.

I did what I could. I already have a ton of stuff on my plate to deal with. So here's their contact info:

You can find Brian Moseley's (the author of Aether & Flux) website here: http://www.darkfuries.com/support.html His email is listed and he has a facebook page for his company. I haven't been able to get in touch with him but you might have better luck than me.

You can find Benjamin Durbin's (the author of Grim Tales) website here: https://web.archive.org/web/20190623172208/http://www.badaxegames.com/contact-us/ his email is listed there. His email worked last time I checked two years ago (if the support address bounces then I can give you another email he used to contact me). You might have better luck with him than me.

Good luck. If you need anymore help, then contact me privately on Guilded. Thanks and have fun!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 05:24:55 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:00:25 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 04:53:20 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
So the creator and IP holder isn't selling due to his own stupidity? Okay.

He seemed nice enough in his messages. The last we spoke he said he just wasn't interested in maintaining an IP from the early 2000s because he had real life to deal with. That's a pretty common answer I get whenever I talk to people about stuff they wrote 10, 20 or more years ago. "I have too much real life stuff to deal with, so I can't be bothered with this stuff I wrote decades ago."

Most writers just aren't interested in preserving their legacy for future generations. They just don't consider it important enough to go through the insane hassle involved. Most of our cultural output from the 20th century onward is not being preserved due to overly long copyright terms and that is gonna leave a noticeable gap in historical and literary records. A century or two from now it's gonna be easy to find something published in 1923 but extremely difficult or impossible to find something published in 2023.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
That DTRPG refuses to fix something they should be fixing IS BS, or is this something IN the PDF? If it's the latter then it's up to the author to fix it.

I don't know the exact details. The creator submitted a new PDF and drivethrurpg still says its broken. I downloaded the PDF myself (I was fortunate enough to have bought it before the takedown) and there's no problem with the file. I don't know what has drivethru's knickers in a twist. They stopped returning my messages. I haven't been able to get in contact with the creator again.

The only part of the book I liked were the space travel rules and the tables for system generation anyway.

The reason I liked the space travel rules was because, unlike something like spelljammer, they weren't dependent on magic so you could load them into low magic settings or even steampunk settings. The author/owner invented some fake fantasy physics involving "ether" and a fantastical version of electricity called "flux". Ether was almost everywhere and concentrated at different densities on planets, in outer space, at the edge of systems (it created a pseudo-crystal sphere called the "pale ether"), and in interstellar space (the "traverse" where FTL travel was possible). Normally ether didn't interact with matter at all. But by running an electric current through wires made of certain metals, ether would repel the wires with force sufficient to counter gravity. You stick these wires to the back of a sail, you've created a ship that can fly thru the sky and even reach escape velocity. Various other machines used flux to generate power (a "flux capacitor"), generate gravity, scrub atmosphere, and lightning guns. The repulsion produced by ether scaled inversely with its concentration, so interstellar space (the lowest concentration of ether) would push ships at FTL speeds. The pale ether at the edge of systems created a natural barrier: you had to disable your flux capacitor to travel through it, otherwise the passage would shred everything conducting flux current at the moment of impact. An idiom for entering interstellar space was, naturally, "beyond the pale."

Quite frankly, recycling his ether and flux concepts probably wouldn't run afoul of copyright at all. You can't copyright an idea. The names are straight up references to Victorian outdated scientific hypothesis and the movie Back To The Future.

All this bullshit is why I'm gonna release my work into public domain. I don't want to waste my time on the hassle involved in maintaining it by myself. Let Internet Archive, Project Gutenberg, Wikisource, etc do it. I can't take my money into the grave, so I might as well leave a legacy.

Have you tried convincing him of putting it in the public domain? Or giving you permision to mantain/publish it?

Those mechanics can be reworked to put them in the public domain, send them to me and I'll do it for you.

I did what I could. I already have a ton of stuff on my plate to deal with. So here's their contact info:

You can find Brian Moseley's (the author of Aether & Flux) website here: http://www.darkfuries.com/support.html His email is listed and he has a facebook page for his company. I haven't been able to get in touch with him but you might have better luck than me.

You can find Benjamin Durbin's (the author of Grim Tales) website here: https://web.archive.org/web/20190623172208/http://www.badaxegames.com/contact-us/ his email is listed there. His email worked last time I checked two years ago (if the support address bounces then I can give you another email he used to contact me). You might have better luck with him than me.

Good luck. If you need anymore help, then contact me privately on Guilded. Thanks and have fun!

I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.

But if you don't want to hey!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:39:36 PM
I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.

But if you don't want to hey!

See, this is exactly my point. "I've never heard of it, therefore it's worthless." Nobody gives a flying fuck about preserving any of this shit for future generations. "Oh, kids in 100 years won't know what Hanna Barbera cartoons were? Eh, fuck those worthless shits anyway. I got mine!" We might as just burn all books now for all the difference it makes.

Anyway, I probably don't need your help to do that. I just summarized it all in my last post. What copyrighted info is there left to scrub?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 05:55:16 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:39:36 PM
I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.

But if you don't want to hey!

See, this is exactly my point. "I've never heard of it, therefore it's worthless." Nobody gives a flying fuck about preserving any of this shit for future generations. "Oh, kids in 100 years won't know what Hanna Barbera cartoons were? Eh, fuck those worthless shits anyway. I got mine!" We might as just burn all books now for all the difference it makes.

Anyway, I probably don't need your help to do that. I just summarized it all in my last post. What copyrighted info is there left to scrub?

Dude, chill.  People are going to great lengths to preserve the good stuff but no one has time to look at it all and preserve everything.  If you are passionate about this material, meet us half way.  Don't make me, or anyone else, have to do two days of digging to get to this.

Quote from: BadApple on August 22, 2023, 06:30:21 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 05:55:16 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:39:36 PM
I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.

But if you don't want to hey!

See, this is exactly my point. "I've never heard of it, therefore it's worthless." Nobody gives a flying fuck about preserving any of this shit for future generations. "Oh, kids in 100 years won't know what Hanna Barbera cartoons were? Eh, fuck those worthless shits anyway. I got mine!" We might as just burn all books now for all the difference it makes.

Anyway, I probably don't need your help to do that. I just summarized it all in my last post. What copyrighted info is there left to scrub?

Dude, chill.  People are going to great lengths to preserve the good stuff but no one has time to look at it all and preserve everything.  If you are passionate about this material, meet us half way.  Don't make me, or anyone else, have to do two days of digging to get to this.

I've spent years trying to preserve things and there is so much I can't preserve despite trying. There's infinitely more I'm not aware of. It's all tragic af. You're not telling me anything I don't already know and you're preaching to the choir.

Meet you halfway how? Pirating the books by sending you PDF copies? I'm not risking being banned from drivethrurpg and sued for all I'm worth. The entire reason I'm upset is because the law punishes us for trying to preserve these books. The trove has been taken down multiple times. Piracy is not a reliable way of preserving these books.

Look at the alternityrpg.net forum. The most users online was 21 people in 2007... 16 years ago. That's what happens to a community without ready legal access to the books. It withers away and dies.

I've had it up to here with all this legal bullshit. Trying to preserve these books just isn't worth it. I'm gonna write ripoffs of these IPs I liked and release my work into public domain so that other people can do whatever they want with it. That's the only thing I can do that doesn't make me tear my hair out.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 07:07:26 PM

Quote from: BadApple on August 22, 2023, 06:30:21 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 05:55:16 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:39:36 PM
I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.

But if you don't want to hey!

See, this is exactly my point. "I've never heard of it, therefore it's worthless." Nobody gives a flying fuck about preserving any of this shit for future generations. "Oh, kids in 100 years won't know what Hanna Barbera cartoons were? Eh, fuck those worthless shits anyway. I got mine!" We might as just burn all books now for all the difference it makes.

Anyway, I probably don't need your help to do that. I just summarized it all in my last post. What copyrighted info is there left to scrub?

Dude, chill.  People are going to great lengths to preserve the good stuff but no one has time to look at it all and preserve everything.  If you are passionate about this material, meet us half way.  Don't make me, or anyone else, have to do two days of digging to get to this.

I've spent years trying to preserve things and there is so much I can't preserve despite trying. There's infinitely more I'm not aware of. It's all tragic af. You're not telling me anything I don't already know and you're preaching to the choir.

Meet you halfway how? Pirating the books by sending you PDF copies? I'm not risking being banned from drivethrurpg and sued for all I'm worth. The entire reason I'm upset is because the law punishes us for trying to preserve these books. The trove has been taken down multiple times. Piracy is not a reliable way of preserving these books.

Look at the alternityrpg.net forum. The most users online was 21 people in 2007... 16 years ago. That's what happens to a community without ready legal access to the books. It withers away and dies.

I've had it up to here with all this legal bullshit. Trying to preserve these books just isn't worth it. I'm gonna write ripoffs of these IPs I liked and release my work into public domain so that other people can do whatever they want with it. That's the only thing I can do that doesn't make me tear my hair out.

RPGs aren't books or films.  The real preservation of them is keeping the games in the hands of players.  I'm on your side but you need to refocus your energy into what you really want.

First things first, select a manageable sized portion of RPGs that you want to save and then buy the dead tree copies.

Then, decide what part of the material is what you're trying to save.  Is it the setting?  Is the art?  Is it mechanics or game play loop?

Finally, develop a product and put it out in such a way that it takes the best of what you love about what you're trying to preserve.  In the end, it isn't about me having an exact experience that someone else at another table has but that we take what we love and enjoy and share it in our own way.

Quote from: BadApple on August 22, 2023, 08:29:53 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 07:07:26 PM

Quote from: BadApple on August 22, 2023, 06:30:21 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 05:55:16 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:39:36 PM
I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.

But if you don't want to hey!

See, this is exactly my point. "I've never heard of it, therefore it's worthless." Nobody gives a flying fuck about preserving any of this shit for future generations. "Oh, kids in 100 years won't know what Hanna Barbera cartoons were? Eh, fuck those worthless shits anyway. I got mine!" We might as just burn all books now for all the difference it makes.

Anyway, I probably don't need your help to do that. I just summarized it all in my last post. What copyrighted info is there left to scrub?

Dude, chill.  People are going to great lengths to preserve the good stuff but no one has time to look at it all and preserve everything.  If you are passionate about this material, meet us half way.  Don't make me, or anyone else, have to do two days of digging to get to this.

I've spent years trying to preserve things and there is so much I can't preserve despite trying. There's infinitely more I'm not aware of. It's all tragic af. You're not telling me anything I don't already know and you're preaching to the choir.

Meet you halfway how? Pirating the books by sending you PDF copies? I'm not risking being banned from drivethrurpg and sued for all I'm worth. The entire reason I'm upset is because the law punishes us for trying to preserve these books. The trove has been taken down multiple times. Piracy is not a reliable way of preserving these books.

Look at the alternityrpg.net forum. The most users online was 21 people in 2007... 16 years ago. That's what happens to a community without ready legal access to the books. It withers away and dies.

I've had it up to here with all this legal bullshit. Trying to preserve these books just isn't worth it. I'm gonna write ripoffs of these IPs I liked and release my work into public domain so that other people can do whatever they want with it. That's the only thing I can do that doesn't make me tear my hair out.

RPGs aren't books or films.  The real preservation of them is keeping the games in the hands of players.  I'm on your side but you need to refocus your energy into what you really want.

First things first, select a manageable sized portion of RPGs that you want to save and then buy the dead tree copies.

Then, decide what part of the material is what you're trying to save.  Is it the setting?  Is the art?  Is it mechanics or game play loop?

Finally, develop a product and put it out in such a way that it takes the best of what you love about what you're trying to preserve.  In the end, it isn't about me having an exact experience that someone else at another table has but that we take what we love and enjoy and share it in our own way.

I've started a thread in the development forum. Go there if you're interested in discussing how to recycle the magic for new generations, and in the public domain this time.

I've been reading this thread and brooding on it a bit.

@BoxCrayonTales - I get your lament for the loss of IPs. Like GeekyBugle, I've watched all my favorite IP's descend into madness. Lifelong collector of comics since the 60's... the entire American comics scene is a post-nuclear wasteland of gamma-irradiated dogshit. It's TTRPG's that saved me from my lament, because ultimately it made me realize that WE are the ones in control of what we consume and run at our table.

It's not the paper these mechanics are printed on that are holy. You're not preserving these things for posterity - because they're only alive if you use them and hand them down to others. But the reality is *they will die*. Just like countless sports have died.

And yes, we need people like you to carry their torch as far as you possibly can. The reality is, that journey is its own reward, and you need to face that. Like many of these dead sports - their elements were passed down to *new* sports which carry their DNA. Arguably better? The point is what GeekyBugle (and myself) are saying - it takes people with the passion and drive to create those new games, draw on inspiration and create something new(ish). There's ALWAYS going to be holdouts of the old guard in gaming (and any other hobby). There are still people that hand-craft wagon-wheels for horse-drawn carriages, I still run MSH and maintain it's one of the greatest systems ever made... but lets face it, it will never be more than it is without someone reimagining it.

That could be you. So take this obvious passion and energy to make something new, that's yours  - the best heartbreaker ever - and DO IT. Don't do it out of revenge, do it for the love of the game.

Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 11:19:49 AM
I've been reading this thread and brooding on it a bit.

@BoxCrayonTales - I get your lament for the loss of IPs. Like GeekyBugle, I've watched all my favorite IP's descend into madness. Lifelong collector of comics since the 60's... the entire American comics scene is a post-nuclear wasteland of gamma-irradiated dogshit. It's TTRPG's that saved me from my lament, because ultimately it made me realize that WE are the ones in control of what we consume and run at our table.

It's not the paper these mechanics are printed on that are holy. You're not preserving these things for posterity - because they're only alive if you use them and hand them down to others. But the reality is *they will die*. Just like countless sports have died.

And yes, we need people like you to carry their torch as far as you possibly can. The reality is, that journey is its own reward, and you need to face that. Like many of these dead sports - their elements were passed down to *new* sports which carry their DNA. Arguably better? The point is what GeekyBugle (and myself) are saying - it takes people with the passion and drive to create those new games, draw on inspiration and create something new(ish). There's ALWAYS going to be holdouts of the old guard in gaming (and any other hobby). There are still people that hand-craft wagon-wheels for horse-drawn carriages, I still run MSH and maintain it's one of the greatest systems ever made... but lets face it, it will never be more than it is without someone reimagining it.

That could be you. So take this obvious passion and energy to make something new, that's yours  - the best heartbreaker ever - and DO IT. Don't do it out of revenge, do it for the love of the game.

Again, I started a thread in the design forum.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 01:56:08 PM
The thing is, copyright still applies to story structure. If you copied the plot outline of Harry Potter and just filed off the serial numbers, then J.K. Rowling can still sue you for copyright infringement.

How do you explain Sword of Shannara which is Lord of the Rings with serial numbers filed off. The author was never sued by the Tolkien estate, and I understand they are a fairly litigious bunch.

Quote from: Ruprecht on September 03, 2023, 10:34:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 01:56:08 PM
The thing is, copyright still applies to story structure. If you copied the plot outline of Harry Potter and just filed off the serial numbers, then J.K. Rowling can still sue you for copyright infringement.

How do you explain Sword of Shannara which is Lord of the Rings with serial numbers filed off. The author was never sued by the Tolkien estate, and I understand they are a fairly litigious bunch.

Copyright rests on very specific word order, not broad themes or similar resolutions. I could totally retell GoT with the names filed off and some tweaks (make it sci-fi, the kingdoms are all different planets, the Wall is a giant ring gate built to hold out a race of ancient alien race, dragons were ancient gene-locked warships, the Others are now Greys who employ bioweapons that convert organic matter into their foot soldiers, Valerian steel becomes lostech power suits that can resist and kill Greys built by the same people who built the dragons/warships, etc.).

Of course I'd actually need to write my own ending since GRRM refuses to provide one and HBO's ending sucked (not the Dany being evil and nutty part... that was telegraphed back to GRRM's writing... just that they saved it for the penultimate episode as a "twist" and turned everything else to shit to get there), but I could absolutely use the majority of the story beats so long as I wrote everything in my own words and included a bit of my own ideas sprinkled in.

Quote from: Ruprecht on September 03, 2023, 10:34:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 01:56:08 PM
The thing is, copyright still applies to story structure. If you copied the plot outline of Harry Potter and just filed off the serial numbers, then J.K. Rowling can still sue you for copyright infringement.

How do you explain Sword of Shannara which is Lord of the Rings with serial numbers filed off. The author was never sued by the Tolkien estate, and I understand they are a fairly litigious bunch.

It's called Percy Jackson and the Olympians.

My point was specific to "copyright still applies to story structure". Sword of Shannara apes the Lord of the Rings story structure fairly closely and yet was never sued by the sue happy Tolkien estate. So copyright doesn't really apply to story structure but to the combination of story/characters/and specific scenarios.

I've seen the argument used before.