Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 02:28:06 PM
Games I'd like to see again:

Star Frontiers (under that name)
Boot Hill
Top Secret
Gamma World

So, go play them.  They all exist.  What is the F'ing problem?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM

The Aliens RPG is no substitute for Bug Hunters because Ridley Scott took a bit shit on it. It's far too much work for no gain to rewrite Alien when Bug Hunters already does everything I want. But good fucking luck finding adventures for it or anyone else interested in playing.

Bughunters is awesome.

But yeah, what's needed is for people to be more open to new things and stop looking back at ones we can never have.  The reason I don't write material for GURPS, Rolemaster, or D&D any more is simply that I don't own them and can't control what the owners do with them.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 01:22:57 AM
On a different thread the argument about WotC owning so many IPs they do nothing with was brought up. The examples given were: Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Alternity, Amazing Engine, d20 Modern/Future/Past.

Nu-TSR I think showed there's some interest in having a new edition of Star Frontiers, barring the use of the name of the game, races, worlds, etc. Is there really a market for a retroclone? I mean mechanics and all.

Gamma World already has at least 5 AFAIK.

Alternity... Unless the mechanics are something really special couldn't you recreate it with Stars Without Number?

Amazing Engine... What's it about?

Does anyone REALLY want a retroclone of d20 Modern/Future/Past?

Retroclones in general: Yes! Look at the list of adamantine, mithral, and gold sellers on Drive-Thru RPG and you'll find: Against the Darkmaster, Black Hack, Cepheus Engine, DCC, Knave, OSE, Stars Without Number.. so many others. Even some from posters here: Pundit's Lion and Dragon. Eric Diaz' Dark Fantasy Basic. Estar's Majestic Fantasy. Some of those aren't pure retroclones, adding their own special sauce to the recipe. Maybe that's the trick.

Star Frontiers: Check out FrontierSpace, by DWD Studios. Platinum seller. They were behind the Star Frontiers Remastered and Star Frontiersmen project, before WOTC pulled the plug.

Alternity: Actually the mechanics are special (not saying good or bad, just special) but like Star Frontiers, the attraction is probably the aliens and setting.

D20 Modern: There's Modern20 and Grim Tales d20. Is there a market for another D20M retroclone? Who knows? There was a lot of criticism back in the day (wealth system, boring talents, firearms feats) that could be addressed. 

Is there a market for Yet Another Version of X with house rules? Absolutely. Go make it!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.

Your vampire ideas are great. Just take those and port it into Cepheus Engine. Add some art and formatting. Call it "The Undead Engine" and send it to Drive-Thru. Profit.

Your vampire clans are open content, right? I've got half a mind to do this myself!

Quote from: Aglondir on August 21, 2023, 02:58:37 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 01:22:57 AM
On a different thread the argument about WotC owning so many IPs they do nothing with was brought up. The examples given were: Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Alternity, Amazing Engine, d20 Modern/Future/Past.

Nu-TSR I think showed there's some interest in having a new edition of Star Frontiers, barring the use of the name of the game, races, worlds, etc. Is there really a market for a retroclone? I mean mechanics and all.

Gamma World already has at least 5 AFAIK.

Alternity... Unless the mechanics are something really special couldn't you recreate it with Stars Without Number?

Amazing Engine... What's it about?

Does anyone REALLY want a retroclone of d20 Modern/Future/Past?

Retroclones in general: Yes! Look at the list of adamantine, mithral, and gold sellers on Drive-Thru RPG and you'll find: Against the Darkmaster, Black Hack, Cepheus Engine, DCC, Knave, OSE, Stars Without Number.. so many others. Even some from posters here: Pundit's Lion and Dragon. Eric Diaz' Dark Fantasy Basic. Estar's Majestic Fantasy. Some of those aren't pure retroclones, adding their own special sauce to the recipe. Maybe that's the trick.

Star Frontiers: Check out FrontierSpace, by DWD Studios. Platinum seller. They were behind the Star Frontiers Remastered and Star Frontiersmen project, before WOTC pulled the plug.

Alternity: Actually the mechanics are special (not saying good or bad, just special) but like Star Frontiers, the attraction is probably the aliens and setting.

D20 Modern: There's Modern20 and Grim Tales d20. Is there a market for another D20M retroclone? Who knows? There was a lot of criticism back in the day (wealth system, boring talents, firearms feats) that could be addressed. 

Is there a market for Yet Another Version of X with house rules? Absolutely. Go make it!

I'm not asking for myself, I'm doing my stuff and IDGAFF if there's a market or not, I'm doing it because it think it's cool, it's the games I want to play, maybe others think the same? Anyhow if I ever make any money from those that's just icing on the cake.

The question was because BCT was complaining about it, but he just clarified, he doesn't want a serial numbers filled retroclone of those (and other) games, he wants the exact same IP.

Quote from: Aglondir on August 21, 2023, 03:05:23 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.

Your vampire ideas are great. Just take those and port it into Cepheus Engine. Add some art and formatting. Call it "The Undead Engine" and send it to Drive-Thru. Profit.

Your vampire clans are open content, right? I've got half a mind to do this myself!

This is the way.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
That's a lot of work for no gain. I don't give a flying fuck about original settings, I want those existing IPs back. Or at least very close substitutes that recapture the magic.

The magic was never in the system, it was in what you did with it and is, in part, a function of where you were in your life at the time.

There is no way to truly recapture magic despite what peddlers of nostalgia wish you to believe.

There are opportunities to make new magic though.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 11:45:20 AM
To my friends in love with an IP:

Divest yourselfg emotionally from anything you don't own, I had to learn to do so thanks to DC, Marvel, etc. It's not easy but you must to preserve your sanity/peace of mind.

I agree with Tenbones, if you truly love some setting, go forth and create something in the spirit of, make it your own, you  probably won't make a dime out of your efforts, but hey! It's a work of love!.

I'm doing my part with some stuff, so what are you waiting for? Go forth and create!

I really do think this post is key. Despite not myself being a game developer or creator, I can appreciate the point being made here. As well as the work being done by folks like GeekyBugle.

That said, I also admit that it can oftentimes be hard to be willing to walk away from a long beloved setting, gaming system, publisher or the like. And that if something like Ascendant were to go down I'd be heartbroken. I guess that's kind of just the risk that is run when you open your heart to a game, much though I recognize that when things get immoral and twisted like with WotC among others, it can be justifiably time to walk away.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 21, 2023, 03:24:08 PM

The magic was never in the system, it was in what you did with it and is, in part, a function of where you were in your life at the time.

There is no way to truly recapture magic despite what peddlers of nostalgia wish you to believe.

There are opportunities to make new magic though.

FTW

Why not create your own game others can (wrongly) say is a retro-clone of FillInTheBlank?

Stop clout-chasing dead games. Make your own as if the previous PoS didn't exist, maybe?

Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 02:33:47 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 02:28:06 PM
Games I'd like to see again:

Star Frontiers (under that name)
Boot Hill
Top Secret
Gamma World

So, go play them.  They all exist.  What is the F'ing problem?

Have you been reading anything I wrote?

"Buy the books on ebay, pirate the PDF, what's the problem?"

I contacted the original authors of obscure books multiple times to fix issues with availability, and most of the time they couldn't help even though they wanted to or tried to. When I contacted the author of Grim Tales to get copies he told me he was afraid of being sued by WotC. When I contacted the author of Aether & Flux to put the PDF back on drivethrurpg we had a back and forth with tech support who said the problem wasn't fixed and they can't put the book back. When I contacted Mongoose about the Starship Troopers RPG disappearing, they said they couldn't sell the books anymore because the license expired.

Listen to me, and listen to me good: I have already tried everything you suggested and more. Do you know why I'm not satisfied? Because it doesn't solve the underlying fucking problem with availability. Physical books can be lost during a move, or damaged by accidents. Digital books can be lost by server issues, random drive failures, misplacing your external drive, etc. I have no idea how many books I've lost that way. In some cases the books may simply be unavailable period due to bad luck, because not every book is lucky enough to be preserved in decent quality. Drivethrurpg's business and their dedicated tech support is the only way to ensure that I and anyone else has ready access to these books for the foreseeable future, and they're not fucking reliable!

In order to build a community for a tabletop game, the books need to be readily accessible to everyone who is interested. Not just me personally. I live in an area where my only access to gaming groups is online. I don't have a fucking choice in the matter. I can only share games through PDFs, and I cannot promote nor use pirated PDFs because that opens me to litigation. All it takes is one slipup to be locked out of my accounts forever. Most online venues will permaban you just for suggesting piracy.

So kindly sod off.

Quote from: Aglondir on August 21, 2023, 03:05:23 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.

Your vampire ideas are great. Just take those and port it into Cepheus Engine. Add some art and formatting. Call it "The Undead Engine" and send it to Drive-Thru. Profit.

Your vampire clans are open content, right? I've got half a mind to do this myself!

I wrote twelve pitches with one or two sentences each as a thought experiment, inspired by various sources, and released the text into the public domain.

The amount of work required to produce a professional looking game is a lot higher than that. I'm not attached to any particularly system, but writing the fluff (setting, advice, guidelines, etc) is hard enough by itself.

Those IPs I liked were produced by studios who could hire a dozen writers and artists to work on one book. I am just one person who already has a job and responsibilities. I don't have much free time for hobbies, and I have a lot of hobbies that I have to routinely pick on back burners for years at a time.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 03:05:28 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on August 21, 2023, 02:58:37 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 01:22:57 AM
On a different thread the argument about WotC owning so many IPs they do nothing with was brought up. The examples given were: Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Alternity, Amazing Engine, d20 Modern/Future/Past.

Nu-TSR I think showed there's some interest in having a new edition of Star Frontiers, barring the use of the name of the game, races, worlds, etc. Is there really a market for a retroclone? I mean mechanics and all.

Gamma World already has at least 5 AFAIK.

Alternity... Unless the mechanics are something really special couldn't you recreate it with Stars Without Number?

Amazing Engine... What's it about?

Does anyone REALLY want a retroclone of d20 Modern/Future/Past?

Retroclones in general: Yes! Look at the list of adamantine, mithral, and gold sellers on Drive-Thru RPG and you'll find: Against the Darkmaster, Black Hack, Cepheus Engine, DCC, Knave, OSE, Stars Without Number.. so many others. Even some from posters here: Pundit's Lion and Dragon. Eric Diaz' Dark Fantasy Basic. Estar's Majestic Fantasy. Some of those aren't pure retroclones, adding their own special sauce to the recipe. Maybe that's the trick.

Star Frontiers: Check out FrontierSpace, by DWD Studios. Platinum seller. They were behind the Star Frontiers Remastered and Star Frontiersmen project, before WOTC pulled the plug.

Alternity: Actually the mechanics are special (not saying good or bad, just special) but like Star Frontiers, the attraction is probably the aliens and setting.

D20 Modern: There's Modern20 and Grim Tales d20. Is there a market for another D20M retroclone? Who knows? There was a lot of criticism back in the day (wealth system, boring talents, firearms feats) that could be addressed. 

Is there a market for Yet Another Version of X with house rules? Absolutely. Go make it!

I'm not asking for myself, I'm doing my stuff and IDGAFF if there's a market or not, I'm doing it because it think it's cool, it's the games I want to play, maybe others think the same? Anyhow if I ever make any money from those that's just icing on the cake.

The question was because BCT was complaining about it, but he just clarified, he doesn't want a serial numbers filled retroclone of those (and other) games, he wants the exact same IP.

I'm not attached to any particular rules. It's the fluff/lore/whatever that interests me. Worldbuilding is incredibly time consuming and hard and shit, so it's nice when you can just piggyback off somebody's else work. It's also nice to be able to pay them for their hard work.

All the games I've surveyed have problems when it comes to the lore part. Indies generally don't have the budgets to have much lore like 80s, 90s and 00s games did and in my experience the indie community doesn't care for lore anyway. If it's not sufficiently similar then it's not what I'm looking for in the first place, but if it's too similar then it opens itself to litigation. I'm between a rock and a hard place here. You can't just copy the lore and change some names, if the structure is sufficiently similar then you're open to litigation.

This isn't really a problem with something like say urban fantasy, since you can just draw on countless public domain sources, but when it comes to scifi and anything not public domain then you run into problems. Individual scifi tropes are safe, but the more detailed your work the more... well, even if none of the same names are used, you can still be sued for sufficiently similar structure. That's why the OGL was such an important development and why Hasbro tried to destroy it.

Much of this is also theoretical. Stellaris uses tons of recognizable scifi tropes and hasn't been sued by Paramount or Disney, but I can't be sure that I'm safe if I tried that. Nobody else has tried it before me, trust me I looked. So rock and hard place.

Also, the Grim Tales original electronic PDFs were taken down from drivethrurpg in 2008 and all the pirated PDFs are shit quality scans (this is one of the reasons why telling me to pirate the PDFs is a stupid answer: there's no guarantee anyone filched the OEF PDF from drivethrurpg before it went down, or scanned a physical book, or that the quality isn't shit; I've encountered this problem multiple times already). I tried contacting the original author to get PDFs and he said he can't share them with me because he's afraid of being sued by WotC for making d20 content. That's why he took them down.

So the guy who wrote the game isn't allowed to share his own work or preserve it for posterity because he's afraid of being sued. He's not the first author of missing PDFs that I contacted who told me this. "I took my PDFs down because I'm afraid of WotC suing me" is a common refrain. Authors are terrorized into taking down their own work, with zero guarantee it will be preserved in any form. This is fucking stupid! The entire system is stacked against everyone who isn't fucking WotC! Even if the author wants to sell his PDFs and I want to give him my money, neither of us get what we want because of fucking WotC!

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 21, 2023, 03:24:08 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
That's a lot of work for no gain. I don't give a flying fuck about original settings, I want those existing IPs back. Or at least very close substitutes that recapture the magic.

The magic was never in the system, it was in what you did with it and is, in part, a function of where you were in your life at the time.

There is no way to truly recapture magic despite what peddlers of nostalgia wish you to believe.

There are opportunities to make new magic though.

Yeah... I tried that for a few months and then I gave up. Firstly, it's hella hard for one person without professional experience to create an entire space opera IP comparable to that created by a dozen professional writers over two years and a couple dozen books. Secondly, I was worried about being sued for being too similar. I don't think Hasbro actually would sue, but the law is the law and I'm not gonna risk my livelihood.

I haven't been able find suitable efforts by other people either. There's no post-apocalyptic rpg with cryptic alliances. The Mutant Future wiki literally just recaps the GW cryptic alliances and implies that you use them, doing so in a way that constitutes fair use.

This is just ridiculous. I don't want to commit crimes with a wink and nudge. I want to do something 100% legal that I can share freely with other people without worrying that a lawyer is gonna suddenly appear to exsanguinate me.

The only project that is really working for me right now is an urban fantasy for a video game test. The only reason that I have any confidence there is because I have ton of public domain material to protect me. I can't exactly replicate a lot of ideas from IPs I liked, but I don't need to in this case because there's so much genre material to begin with. If somebody tries to sue, then I can point to the public domain or other prior works to show that I'm not infringing their copyright.

Pretty much the root of all my problems is that I'm afraid of being sued for writing love letters to dead IPs or trying to preserve the works of nice people I've been in touch with.

Quote from: KindaMeh on August 21, 2023, 03:26:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 11:45:20 AM
To my friends in love with an IP:

Divest yourselfg emotionally from anything you don't own, I had to learn to do so thanks to DC, Marvel, etc. It's not easy but you must to preserve your sanity/peace of mind.

I agree with Tenbones, if you truly love some setting, go forth and create something in the spirit of, make it your own, you  probably won't make a dime out of your efforts, but hey! It's a work of love!.

I'm doing my part with some stuff, so what are you waiting for? Go forth and create!

I really do think this post is key. Despite not myself being a game developer or creator, I can appreciate the point being made here. As well as the work being done by folks like GeekyBugle.

That said, I also admit that it can oftentimes be hard to be willing to walk away from a long beloved setting, gaming system, publisher or the like. And that if something like Ascendant were to go down I'd be heartbroken. I guess that's kind of just the risk that is run when you open your heart to a game, much though I recognize that when things get immoral and twisted like with WotC among others, it can be justifiably time to walk away.

The problem is that even if I filed off the serial numbers, simply using a sufficiently similar structure can open me to litigation. I have no idea where the dividing line is. I don't know how similar I can make my original work before I open myself to risk of litigation. I spent months writing a google doc of ideas before giving up because I couldn't balance my love for the original with my fear of litigation. That's my frustration.

Have you noticed how there are absolutely no 4X games that recapture the spirit or popularity of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri? It's not for lack of trying, since Sid tried that with Beyond Earth only to fail. Alpha Centauri is considered a classic of the genre that nothing else even comes close to. Planetfall, Stellaris, Endless Space... none of them have reached anywhere close to the cultural touchstone status that Alpha Centauri has. None of those other games have memorable characters and quotes like Alpha Centauri does.

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 21, 2023, 04:14:22 PM
Why not create your own game others can (wrongly) say is a retro-clone of FillInTheBlank?

Stop clout-chasing dead games. Make your own as if the previous PoS didn't exist, maybe?

No shit, Sherlock. As if I didn't think of that already. Again, tell that to everyone upset about Hollywood burning through beloved IPs.

"Oh just make new IPs about superheroes, adventurer archaeologists, girly dolls, utopian space opera, space wizards, etc."

Most people don't want to do that. It's hard and we already have our own lives to deal with. Even if they did try your suggestion, most of them don't have the means to realize it. As shown by, oh, the complete lack of substitutes coming out for all those destroyed IPs.

Who has created a horrific memorable Giger monster to replaced the alien that Ridley Scott shat into oblivion? Who has created a superhero team to replace the Avengers and Justice League? Who has created new fairy tales to replace Disney? Nobody has done this. There are many millions of dissatisfied fans, so why is this absence so conspicuous? Before telling me to make my own stuff, ask yourself why so many others don't despite there being millions of us.

I'm not chasing these IPs for clout. As shown by nobody else on this forum knowing what even half of them are, obviously they don't bring me any clout. (This forum has an obvious bias for stuff contemporary with first edition A&D at latest; most of these IPs I mentioned are from the 90s and 00s.) I'm chasing them because I think they're cool and they died out before they could be driven into the ground like most living IPs have.

To be fair, I set myself a high goal by starting with Star*Drive. A lot of my creative frustration comes from that specifically. Most of the IPs I remember fondly come from single books and magazine articles that are probably pretty easy to replicate without running afoul of copyright.

Take Bug Hunters. It's basically a mashup of Blade Runner with Aliens. Humanity created replicants to fight alien monsters and robots leftover from an ancient alien war. Not exactly a lot of material that I'd need to skirt around to avoid copyright infringement. Which is why I'm surprised nobody else has down so already. The tropes of replicants and bug hunters and leftover weapons from ancient wars are not exactly obscure.

Or Dark•Matter. There are a number of works involving ufos, cryptids, conspiracies, etc. The X-Files, Roswell Conspiracies: Aliens, Myths and Legends, The Secret Saturdays, etc. It forms its own subculture because a lot of people genuinely believe in this stuff (although it's definitely died down compared to the 90s). The only really original bit that Dark•Matter adds is that it uses dark matter as a meta-origin for all the paranormal weirdness. The various aliens and cryptids, with the exception of the grays, came to earth through naturally occurring portals opened by dark matter activity. Psychic powers, magic, demons, etc are all tied into the dark matter. Dark matter behaves like a tide, and at the time the game was written it was rising and would change the world (possibly apocalyptically) in 2012 (naturally any similar game made now would need to address this). A lot of the original monsters were released in some form under the d20 Modern SRD. I could probably just make a ripoff, to the point of snatching the expired trademark for my work, but I enjoy the original IP and I think doing that would be really scummy. But Everyday Heroes is apparently trying to rehash the various d20 Modern settings so I'd rather wait and see what they do before trying my own hand at it.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 04:54:46 PM
<snip>

What's wrong with you?  You know no one is going to read this wall of text.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 04:54:46 PM


In order to build a community for a tabletop game, the books need to be readily accessible to everyone who is interested.

Wrong moron.  None of my players have the physical books. They use PDF's and a tablet or phone for quick look up. Almost everyone I know uses PDFs.  I only have one physical book of the game I'm running.  The rest are PDFs.   Throwing out falsehoods whenever someone offers a workable solution to a problem you present is indicative of a mental illness.

Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 02:33:47 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 02:28:06 PM
Games I'd like to see again:

Star Frontiers (under that name)
Boot Hill
Top Secret
Gamma World

So, go play them.  They all exist.  What is the F'ing problem?

I'd like to see them organized better, bound better, and supported with ongoing new material and electronic character generators and other stuff most modern RPGs get.

Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 05:29:07 PM

Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 02:33:47 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 02:28:06 PM
Games I'd like to see again:

Star Frontiers (under that name)
Boot Hill
Top Secret
Gamma World

So, go play them.  They all exist.  What is the F'ing problem?

I'd like to see them organized better, bound better, and supported with ongoing new material and electronic character generators and other stuff most modern RPGs get.

If that stops you from playing then you don't want to play them very much