On a different thread the argument about WotC owning so many IPs they do nothing with was brought up. The examples given were: Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Alternity, Amazing Engine, d20 Modern/Future/Past.

Nu-TSR I think showed there's some interest in having a new edition of Star Frontiers, barring the use of the name of the game, races, worlds, etc. Is there really a market for a retroclone? I mean mechanics and all.

Gamma World already has at least 5 AFAIK.

Alternity... Unless the mechanics are something really special couldn't you recreate it with Stars Without Number?

Amazing Engine... What's it about?

Does anyone REALLY want a retroclone of d20 Modern/Future/Past?

Some of the alternity IPs have been ported to 3e at least.

Pretty sure Dark*Matter was given a d20 Modern revamp much like Masque of the Red Death was.

I think that the fact that GammaWorld has multiple retroclones that come up pretty frequently in TTRPG discussions (Mutant Year Zero being another one not brought up in that other thread that's actually pretty successful and even has its own video game) proves that there's a market for retroclones for at least some of those IPs. But I also think that's kinda besides the point. Part of the charm of those IPs is in those IPs themselves. Making a retroclone kinda dilutes them and makes me wonder: Why not just make something completely new and original?

Could you make a retroclone based on Dark Sun (another IP WotC has locked away in Copyright jail), for example? Sure. But it wouldn't be Dark Sun, it would just be a cheap knock off. And it wouldn't be able to capture the full essence, because part of the core of Dark Sun is that it's based on D&D, using core D&D races adapted to an alien, post-apocalyptic landscape. If you made a Dark Sun retroclone, you'd have to make up new races, so it would no longer be Dark Sun.

Some of these IPs are also themselves their own take in certain fantasy/sci-fi tropes. Star*Drive (Alternity's core setting) being one of them. Could you make a Star*Drive retroclone? Sure, but you'd basically be making your own take on a setting that's already it's own take on certain sci-fi tropes. And you wouldn't be able to copy its original races, which is part of what gives it its own identity.

Urban Arcana (d20 Modern's fantasy setting) is just generic Urban Fantasy based on D&D. The fact that it's based on D&D is what gives it its own identity. You might make an Urban Fantasy setting inspired by it (I sort of am), but would it even count as an Urban Arcana retroclone?

I would much rather cry with BoxCrayonTales that these IPs are held hostage than make an actual retroclone based on them.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 21, 2023, 07:17:26 AMI would much rather cry with BoxCrayonTales that these IPs are held hostage than make an actual retroclone based on them.

I'll agree to shed a manly tear for them in between designing my post-apocalyptic, sci-fi, and urban fantasy settings/games.

Take the lost as inspiration to make something truly your own. It might even be better than the original.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 21, 2023, 07:17:26 AM
I think that the fact that GammaWorld has multiple retroclones that come up pretty frequently in TTRPG discussions (Mutant Year Zero being another one not brought up in that other thread that's actually pretty successful and even has its own video game) proves that there's a market for retroclones for at least some of those IPs. But I also think that's kinda besides the point. Part of the charm of those IPs is in those IPs themselves. Making a retroclone kinda dilutes them and makes me wonder: Why not just make something completely new and original?

Could you make a retroclone based on Dark Sun (another IP WotC has locked away in Copyright jail), for example? Sure. But it wouldn't be Dark Sun, it would just be a cheap knock off. And it wouldn't be able to capture the full essence, because part of the core of Dark Sun is that it's based on D&D, using core D&D races adapted to an alien, post-apocalyptic landscape. If you made a Dark Sun retroclone, you'd have to make up new races, so it would no longer be Dark Sun.

Some of these IPs are also themselves their own take in certain fantasy/sci-fi tropes. Star*Drive (Alternity's core setting) being one of them. Could you make a Star*Drive retroclone? Sure, but you'd basically be making your own take on a setting that's already it's own take on certain sci-fi tropes. And you wouldn't be able to copy its original races, which is part of what gives it its own identity.

Urban Arcana (d20 Modern's fantasy setting) is just generic Urban Fantasy based on D&D. The fact that it's based on D&D is what gives it its own identity. You might make an Urban Fantasy setting inspired by it (I sort of am), but would it even count as an Urban Arcana retroclone?

I would much rather cry with BoxCrayonTales that these IPs are held hostage than make an actual retroclone based on them.

I agree with what you're saying. People want the original. Not a cheap copy. Even with successful things like One Page Rules, no one uses their lore. They just call the units by their proper Warhammer names and just use the stats and rules for OPR. The same is true of any Retroclone I've seen being played that's based on very specific IPs. I will say it's a bit easier to do say a generic DnD retroclone as we've seen with the rise of OSR retroclones. But if you want a clone based on specific mechanics and lore it's just not going to be the same thing. 

We don't need retroclones in publication. There are a bazillion systems out there that can already "retread" established IP's. And in that regard we're all facing the same undeniable fact we should get over immediately: MANY of our favorite IP's are in the control of entities that don't give two-shits about us, or outright hate us.

When it comes to what you play at your table? Convert away.

What we need is passionate people that want to create new IP's that are inspired instead of being cheap knockoffs. Yes that's much harder than it sounds - but the people controlling our favorite IP's were not the ones that created those IP's, and they're cherished by us because *someone(s)* was inspired enough to create them. There is no limit to ideas, good ones/bad ones, it's all about the execution.

We collectively stand at the borders of a wasteland-graveyard of old IP's we cling to from sentimentality, and a foggy world of possibility that could be awesome if we only venture into it and start creating. Is there market for this stuff? Absolutely. Is it hard to do it? Absolutely. But we shouldn't let that stop us.

To my friends in love with an IP:

Divest yourselfg emotionally from anything you don't own, I had to learn to do so thanks to DC, Marvel, etc. It's not easy but you must to preserve your sanity/peace of mind.

I agree with Tenbones, if you truly love some setting, go forth and create something in the spirit of, make it your own, you  probably won't make a dime out of your efforts, but hey! It's a work of love!.

I'm doing my part with some stuff, so what are you waiting for? Go forth and create!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 01:22:57 AM
On a different thread the argument about WotC owning so many IPs they do nothing with was brought up. The examples given were: Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Alternity, Amazing Engine, d20 Modern/Future/Past.

Nu-TSR I think showed there's some interest in having a new edition of Star Frontiers, barring the use of the name of the game, races, worlds, etc. Is there really a market for a retroclone? I mean mechanics and all.

Gamma World already has at least 5 AFAIK.

Alternity... Unless the mechanics are something really special couldn't you recreate it with Stars Without Number?

Amazing Engine... What's it about?

Does anyone REALLY want a retroclone of d20 Modern/Future/Past?

Apparently not a big market is anything significant.  No one has asked me to run anything like most of those in the last 20 years.  Something like D20 modern doesn't require that the players own anything.  The SRD plus GM input is all that's needed. No market

That's a lot of work for no gain. I don't give a flying fuck about original settings, I want those existing IPs back. Or at least very close substitutes that recapture the magic.

The original writers for Alternity tried to revive it by snatching the trademark and making a retroclone, but immediately crashed and burned when they realized they couldn't use the original IPs. The original writers, professional designers with decades of experience, gave up in failure. What fucking chance does anyone else have?

I tried many times and I gave up. I already have way too much shit to deal with. It's not fucking worth it.

I don't give a flying fuck about original settings because none of them have anything even fucking close to what I'm looking for. None of them have even a fraction of the material. Surprisingly, indie devs don't have the budget or motivation that a bigger company does.

The Aliens RPG is no substitute for Bug Hunters because Ridley Scott took a bit shit on it. It's far too much work for no gain to rewrite Alien when Bug Hunters already does everything I want. But good fucking luck finding adventures for it or anyone else interested in playing.

From the responses in this thread alone, I get the impression nobody else on Earth except me even gives a fuck. That's the fucking problem. Humans are generally not creative. Unless you're passionate and have a fuck ton of money to advertise your ideas, nobody else will think of it or try to fund it or build upon those ideas. The general stagnation of pop culture for the last several decades is proof enough of that.

I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 21, 2023, 07:17:26 AM
If you made a Dark Sun retroclone, you'd have to make up new races, so it would no longer be Dark Sun.

Wrong.  You just need to rename anything that is a copyrightable noun.  Use the same rules for them.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
Unless you're passionate and have a fuck ton of money to advertise your ideas, nobody else will think of it or try to fund it or build upon those ideas.

You are obviously an idiot.  Gary G. had a "fuck ton of money to advertise his ideas"?  Marc was a millionaire?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
That's a lot of work for no gain. I don't give a flying fuck about original settings, I want those existing IPs back. Or at least very close substitutes that recapture the magic.

The original writers for Alternity tried to revive it by snatching the trademark and making a retroclone, but immediately crashed and burned when they realized they couldn't use the original IPs. The original writers, professional designers with decades of experience, gave up in failure. What fucking chance does anyone else have?

I tried many times and I gave up. I already have way too much shit to deal with. It's not fucking worth it.

I don't give a flying fuck about original settings because none of them have anything even fucking close to what I'm looking for. None of them have even a fraction of the material. Surprisingly, indie devs don't have the budget or motivation that a bigger company does.

The Aliens RPG is no substitute for Bug Hunters because Ridley Scott took a bit shit on it. It's far too much work for no gain to rewrite Alien when Bug Hunters already does everything I want. But good fucking luck finding adventures for it or anyone else interested in playing.

From the responses in this thread alone, I get the impression nobody else on Earth except me even gives a fuck. That's the fucking problem. Humans are generally not creative. Unless you're passionate and have a fuck ton of money to advertise your ideas, nobody else will think of it or try to fund it or build upon those ideas. The general stagnation of pop culture for the last several decades is proof enough of that.

I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.

If you have so much hate for the hobby why the fuck are you even here? Do something that brings you joy instead. The hate filled are generally a miserable lot, so let it go and be happy.

Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 12:37:24 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
Unless you're passionate and have a fuck ton of money to advertise your ideas, nobody else will think of it or try to fund it or build upon those ideas.

You are obviously an idiot.  Gary G. had a "fuck ton of money to advertise his ideas"?  Marc was a millionaire?

I'm being hyperbolic. There's a difference. This is a topic I'm philosophically passionate about.

Let me put this way. Imagine a creative premise. Any premise. For example: "King Arthur Pendragon set in the year 4485AD". Unless you're constantly reminding people that this premise exists through routine marketing, people will lose interest and forget about it. They won't be inspired to make their own stuff in a similar vein.

Some premises are lucky enough to reach a critical mass of interested people to the point where they become self-sustaining. Star Trek, Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings... these overshadow their respective genres to the point that >99% of creative output becomes pale imitations of them.

But a scifi take on King Arthur? There's a grand total of 6 non-rpg books ever published for that premise, and then only if you interpret it very broadly.

Maybe there are lots of people who want to produce scifi takes on King Arthur, or would do so if they knew it they could imagine it. But our current civilization holds them back. We don't cultivate creativity in our populace at large. Creativity is a skill like anything else. To be creative requires a lot of time and investment in that skill, a lot of education by exposing oneself to as many diverse ideas as possible, copious use of mad libs and random generation of premises, and probably at least one drug trip.

Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 12:32:48 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 21, 2023, 07:17:26 AM
If you made a Dark Sun retroclone, you'd have to make up new races, so it would no longer be Dark Sun.

Wrong.  You just need to rename anything that is a copyrightable noun.  Use the same rules for them.

If it was that easy, then don't you think there'd be a lot more ripoffs like that beyond mobile games that crash and burn too quick to be remembered?

The thing is, copyright still applies to story structure. If you copied the plot outline of Harry Potter and just filed off the serial numbers, then J.K. Rowling can still sue you for copyright infringement.

In fact, this is a key legal argument against the existence of fanfiction. (All fanfiction is technically illegal, but copyright has to be policed by the owner and nobody else.) If an author reads a fanfic of his/her work and gets inspired to write a similar story, then s/he is opened up to litigation by the writer of the fanfic.

Why do you think there are countless fanfics of copyrighted works, but barely any fan supplements for tabletop games that aren't OGL or a drivethrurpg vault initiative? Why is there no fanfic archive specifically for tabletop gamers to release fan supplements?

Also, the whole "make your own game" argument is identical to the "make your own story" argument used to criticize the existence of fanfiction. The thing is, Intellectual Property was only invented in the 19th century and for the entirety of preceding human history nobody was seen as owning stories. If copyright existed back then, then we wouldn't have any myth, folklore or fairy tales today because nobody would be allowed to retell other people's stories. Copyright is an aberration in the way that humans tell stories. It's fundamentally anti-human because it suppresses a natural and universal human psychological impulse. Treating stories as property is like making it illegal to see, swallow, breathe or pee without paying a fee to do so. It's not something you can enforce without causing more harm than good, which we are seeing right now. Storytelling is less immediately vital to human existence than being able to swallow, breathe or pee, so people don't notice the problems until it gets really bad. Like it is right now.

Why is Intellectual Property treated as something worth enforcing whereas cultural appropriation isn't? Nobody inherently owns anything, physical and intellectual property is a social construct that is enforced by living creatures. Stories are part of culture. Copyright is legally enforced protection against cultural appropriation. How is writing a book so different from a culture inventing their own fashions that copying the former is bad but copying the latter is okay? If a writer deserves to be paid for their work, then why doesn't a culture deserve to be paid for theirs? Conversely, why does any author need their work to be locked away for a century after their death rather than freely given to their culture and everyone else interested in it?

Anyway, my point is that copyright is bad because it causes a ton of unnecessary harm that could be easily prevented if stupid humans got off their lazy asses and fixed it. Proposing various questionable workarounds for a fundamentally unjust system is a tacit admission that said system is a failure and does nothing to advance any solution.

I can understand paying someone for their intellectual labor, but you can obviously compensate them without making it illegal to make backup copies of their work until long past the point where all original copies have been destroyed by the relentless march of time and nobody is alive who remembers it ever existed. Even if I was able to buy immortality and physically wait that long myself and dedicate efforts to preservation, I have no guarantee that I won't die in an accident, or that the file formats would still be valid a century later when the copyright expired, or that the quality of the physical materials hadn't declined...

Like... is there any past instances of public domain work suddenly becoming an even vaguely popular IP a century or longer after publication while being completely ignored in the interim? I pretty much cannot think of any. Every century old IP that is remembered today was one that was actively refreshed in the public consciousness (or at least a dedicated subculture) by somebody more or less constantly over that century. The works of Edgar Rice Burroughs are actively kept trademarked by his estate, the Cthulhu mythos was maintained by Lovecraft's colleagues and fans... others like Dracula, Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, and the Wizard of Oz got lucky by being so successful upon their initial release that they were seared deeply into the public consciousness.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 21, 2023, 01:31:54 PM
If you have so much hate for the hobby why the fuck are you even here? Do something that brings you joy instead. The hate filled are generally a miserable lot, so let it go and be happy.

Again, hyperbole. People say stuff when they're emotional that they don't mean as seriously as others might interpret.

I'm trying to do things that only bring me joy. I'm currently working on some projects that are inspired by things I used to enjoy.

But that doesn't solve the various problems I'm concerned with. Just ignoring them in favor of only doing things that makes me happy sounds like a terrible way to live. Pain is part of being alive and you don't fix that by running away from it. Inevitably, I find fault with everything I used to enjoy. The problem isn't that I find fault. The problem is that the Powers That Be put stupid legal restrictions on me that prevent me from fixing the problems.

You know how everyone is upset that Hollywood has burned through so many IPs? Do you believe that the best thing to do is abandon those IPs completely and only ever focus on whatever things they can find that only bring joy? You can't seriously expect most people to do that. I've certainly tried to convince people to give up on their favorite soiled IPs and they always refuse.

Most people are lazy and want to do the bare minimum. There's been ample opportunity for disgruntled fans to make their own IPs, and for the most part they haven't bothered. You think I'm gonna be any different? I already have a life and I don't have a lot of time or money to invest in creative pursuits, especially not hugely laborious ones like creating a substitute for a dead or soiled IP I used to like.

Have you tried single-handedly making a replacement for an IP you liked that was killed and/or soiled? It's hard.

I've dedicated so much introspection to this. The problem runs far deeper than you know. Our legal system is stacked against the human condition, most people are blissfully unaware of this, and those who do care don't have any power to fix it.

There's currently a bill to reform copyright in the USA. Do you know what prompted it? It wasn't the problems I discussed at length. It was proposed by republicans to childishly punish Disney for being woke by removing their copyrights. It only applies to Disney. It won't save anything else from copyright jail that was published before it could be legislated.

The only people with any power to fix the problems don't give a fuck and would rather pursue childish personal vendettas over improving the human condition.

It's hard not to hate humanity when our leaders are only ever idiots uninterested in solving our problems and the general populace has no interest in voting in people who actually understand and care about the problems. Humanity is basically telling me "you care about preserving art and culture for posterity? fuck you, loser nerd!"

Games I'd like to see again:

Star Frontiers (under that name)
Boot Hill
Top Secret
Gamma World

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 01:56:08 PM

I'm being hyperbolic. There's a difference.

No, you only think there is a difference. Not in your case.