On a different thread the argument about WotC owning so many IPs they do nothing with was brought up. The examples given were: Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Alternity, Amazing Engine, d20 Modern/Future/Past.
Nu-TSR I think showed there's some interest in having a new edition of Star Frontiers, barring the use of the name of the game, races, worlds, etc. Is there really a market for a retroclone? I mean mechanics and all.
Gamma World already has at least 5 AFAIK.
Alternity... Unless the mechanics are something really special couldn't you recreate it with Stars Without Number?
Amazing Engine... What's it about?
Does anyone REALLY want a retroclone of d20 Modern/Future/Past?
Some of the alternity IPs have been ported to 3e at least.
Pretty sure Dark*Matter was given a d20 Modern revamp much like Masque of the Red Death was.
I think that the fact that GammaWorld has multiple retroclones that come up pretty frequently in TTRPG discussions (Mutant Year Zero being another one not brought up in that other thread that's actually pretty successful and even has its own video game) proves that there's a market for retroclones for at least some of those IPs. But I also think that's kinda besides the point. Part of the charm of those IPs is in those IPs themselves. Making a retroclone kinda dilutes them and makes me wonder: Why not just make something completely new and original?
Could you make a retroclone based on Dark Sun (another IP WotC has locked away in Copyright jail), for example? Sure. But it wouldn't be Dark Sun, it would just be a cheap knock off. And it wouldn't be able to capture the full essence, because part of the core of Dark Sun is that it's based on D&D, using core D&D races adapted to an alien, post-apocalyptic landscape. If you made a Dark Sun retroclone, you'd have to make up new races, so it would no longer be Dark Sun.
Some of these IPs are also themselves their own take in certain fantasy/sci-fi tropes. Star*Drive (Alternity's core setting) being one of them. Could you make a Star*Drive retroclone? Sure, but you'd basically be making your own take on a setting that's already it's own take on certain sci-fi tropes. And you wouldn't be able to copy its original races, which is part of what gives it its own identity.
Urban Arcana (d20 Modern's fantasy setting) is just generic Urban Fantasy based on D&D. The fact that it's based on D&D is what gives it its own identity. You might make an Urban Fantasy setting inspired by it (I sort of am), but would it even count as an Urban Arcana retroclone?
I would much rather cry with BoxCrayonTales that these IPs are held hostage than make an actual retroclone based on them.
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 21, 2023, 07:17:26 AMI would much rather cry with BoxCrayonTales that these IPs are held hostage than make an actual retroclone based on them.
I'll agree to shed a manly tear for them in between designing my post-apocalyptic, sci-fi, and urban fantasy settings/games.
Take the lost as inspiration to make something truly your own. It might even be better than the original.
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 21, 2023, 07:17:26 AM
I think that the fact that GammaWorld has multiple retroclones that come up pretty frequently in TTRPG discussions (Mutant Year Zero being another one not brought up in that other thread that's actually pretty successful and even has its own video game) proves that there's a market for retroclones for at least some of those IPs. But I also think that's kinda besides the point. Part of the charm of those IPs is in those IPs themselves. Making a retroclone kinda dilutes them and makes me wonder: Why not just make something completely new and original?
Could you make a retroclone based on Dark Sun (another IP WotC has locked away in Copyright jail), for example? Sure. But it wouldn't be Dark Sun, it would just be a cheap knock off. And it wouldn't be able to capture the full essence, because part of the core of Dark Sun is that it's based on D&D, using core D&D races adapted to an alien, post-apocalyptic landscape. If you made a Dark Sun retroclone, you'd have to make up new races, so it would no longer be Dark Sun.
Some of these IPs are also themselves their own take in certain fantasy/sci-fi tropes. Star*Drive (Alternity's core setting) being one of them. Could you make a Star*Drive retroclone? Sure, but you'd basically be making your own take on a setting that's already it's own take on certain sci-fi tropes. And you wouldn't be able to copy its original races, which is part of what gives it its own identity.
Urban Arcana (d20 Modern's fantasy setting) is just generic Urban Fantasy based on D&D. The fact that it's based on D&D is what gives it its own identity. You might make an Urban Fantasy setting inspired by it (I sort of am), but would it even count as an Urban Arcana retroclone?
I would much rather cry with BoxCrayonTales that these IPs are held hostage than make an actual retroclone based on them.
I agree with what you're saying. People want the original. Not a cheap copy. Even with successful things like One Page Rules, no one uses their lore. They just call the units by their proper Warhammer names and just use the stats and rules for OPR. The same is true of any Retroclone I've seen being played that's based on very specific IPs. I will say it's a bit easier to do say a generic DnD retroclone as we've seen with the rise of OSR retroclones. But if you want a clone based on specific mechanics and lore it's just not going to be the same thing.
We don't need retroclones in publication. There are a bazillion systems out there that can already "retread" established IP's. And in that regard we're all facing the same undeniable fact we should get over immediately: MANY of our favorite IP's are in the control of entities that don't give two-shits about us, or outright hate us.
When it comes to what you play at your table? Convert away.
What we need is passionate people that want to create new IP's that are inspired instead of being cheap knockoffs. Yes that's much harder than it sounds - but the people controlling our favorite IP's were not the ones that created those IP's, and they're cherished by us because *someone(s)* was inspired enough to create them. There is no limit to ideas, good ones/bad ones, it's all about the execution.
We collectively stand at the borders of a wasteland-graveyard of old IP's we cling to from sentimentality, and a foggy world of possibility that could be awesome if we only venture into it and start creating. Is there market for this stuff? Absolutely. Is it hard to do it? Absolutely. But we shouldn't let that stop us.
To my friends in love with an IP:
Divest yourselfg emotionally from anything you don't own, I had to learn to do so thanks to DC, Marvel, etc. It's not easy but you must to preserve your sanity/peace of mind.
I agree with Tenbones, if you truly love some setting, go forth and create something in the spirit of, make it your own, you probably won't make a dime out of your efforts, but hey! It's a work of love!.
I'm doing my part with some stuff, so what are you waiting for? Go forth and create!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 01:22:57 AM
On a different thread the argument about WotC owning so many IPs they do nothing with was brought up. The examples given were: Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Alternity, Amazing Engine, d20 Modern/Future/Past.
Nu-TSR I think showed there's some interest in having a new edition of Star Frontiers, barring the use of the name of the game, races, worlds, etc. Is there really a market for a retroclone? I mean mechanics and all.
Gamma World already has at least 5 AFAIK.
Alternity... Unless the mechanics are something really special couldn't you recreate it with Stars Without Number?
Amazing Engine... What's it about?
Does anyone REALLY want a retroclone of d20 Modern/Future/Past?
Apparently not a big market is anything significant. No one has asked me to run anything like most of those in the last 20 years. Something like D20 modern doesn't require that the players own anything. The SRD plus GM input is all that's needed. No market
That's a lot of work for no gain. I don't give a flying fuck about original settings, I want those existing IPs back. Or at least very close substitutes that recapture the magic.
The original writers for Alternity tried to revive it by snatching the trademark and making a retroclone, but immediately crashed and burned when they realized they couldn't use the original IPs. The original writers, professional designers with decades of experience, gave up in failure. What fucking chance does anyone else have?
I tried many times and I gave up. I already have way too much shit to deal with. It's not fucking worth it.
I don't give a flying fuck about original settings because none of them have anything even fucking close to what I'm looking for. None of them have even a fraction of the material. Surprisingly, indie devs don't have the budget or motivation that a bigger company does.
The Aliens RPG is no substitute for Bug Hunters because Ridley Scott took a bit shit on it. It's far too much work for no gain to rewrite Alien when Bug Hunters already does everything I want. But good fucking luck finding adventures for it or anyone else interested in playing.
From the responses in this thread alone, I get the impression nobody else on Earth except me even gives a fuck. That's the fucking problem. Humans are generally not creative. Unless you're passionate and have a fuck ton of money to advertise your ideas, nobody else will think of it or try to fund it or build upon those ideas. The general stagnation of pop culture for the last several decades is proof enough of that.
I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 21, 2023, 07:17:26 AM
If you made a Dark Sun retroclone, you'd have to make up new races, so it would no longer be Dark Sun.
Wrong. You just need to rename anything that is a copyrightable noun. Use the same rules for them.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
Unless you're passionate and have a fuck ton of money to advertise your ideas, nobody else will think of it or try to fund it or build upon those ideas.
You are obviously an idiot. Gary G. had a "fuck ton of money to advertise his ideas"? Marc was a millionaire?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
That's a lot of work for no gain. I don't give a flying fuck about original settings, I want those existing IPs back. Or at least very close substitutes that recapture the magic.
The original writers for Alternity tried to revive it by snatching the trademark and making a retroclone, but immediately crashed and burned when they realized they couldn't use the original IPs. The original writers, professional designers with decades of experience, gave up in failure. What fucking chance does anyone else have?
I tried many times and I gave up. I already have way too much shit to deal with. It's not fucking worth it.
I don't give a flying fuck about original settings because none of them have anything even fucking close to what I'm looking for. None of them have even a fraction of the material. Surprisingly, indie devs don't have the budget or motivation that a bigger company does.
The Aliens RPG is no substitute for Bug Hunters because Ridley Scott took a bit shit on it. It's far too much work for no gain to rewrite Alien when Bug Hunters already does everything I want. But good fucking luck finding adventures for it or anyone else interested in playing.
From the responses in this thread alone, I get the impression nobody else on Earth except me even gives a fuck. That's the fucking problem. Humans are generally not creative. Unless you're passionate and have a fuck ton of money to advertise your ideas, nobody else will think of it or try to fund it or build upon those ideas. The general stagnation of pop culture for the last several decades is proof enough of that.
I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.
If you have so much hate for the hobby why the fuck are you even here? Do something that brings you joy instead. The hate filled are generally a miserable lot, so let it go and be happy.
Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 12:37:24 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
Unless you're passionate and have a fuck ton of money to advertise your ideas, nobody else will think of it or try to fund it or build upon those ideas.
You are obviously an idiot. Gary G. had a "fuck ton of money to advertise his ideas"? Marc was a millionaire?
I'm being hyperbolic. There's a difference. This is a topic I'm philosophically passionate about.
Let me put this way. Imagine a creative premise. Any premise. For example: "King Arthur Pendragon set in the year 4485AD (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17325/AM6-Once-And-Future-King-Universe-Book)". Unless you're constantly reminding people that this premise exists through routine marketing, people will lose interest and forget about it. They won't be inspired to make their own stuff in a similar vein.
Some premises are lucky enough to reach a critical mass of interested people to the point where they become self-sustaining. Star Trek, Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings... these overshadow their respective genres to the point that >99% of creative output becomes pale imitations of them.
But a scifi take on King Arthur? There's a grand total of 6 non-rpg books ever published for that premise (https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/sci-fi-fantasy/6-brilliant-sci-fi-takes-on-arthurian-legend/), and then only if you interpret it
very broadly.
Maybe there are lots of people who want to produce scifi takes on King Arthur, or would do so if they knew it they could imagine it. But our current civilization holds them back. We don't cultivate creativity in our populace at large. Creativity is a skill like anything else. To be creative requires a lot of time and investment in that skill, a lot of education by exposing oneself to as many diverse ideas as possible, copious use of mad libs and random generation of premises, and probably at least one drug trip.
Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 12:32:48 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 21, 2023, 07:17:26 AM
If you made a Dark Sun retroclone, you'd have to make up new races, so it would no longer be Dark Sun.
Wrong. You just need to rename anything that is a copyrightable noun. Use the same rules for them.
If it was that easy, then don't you think there'd be a lot more ripoffs like that beyond mobile games that crash and burn too quick to be remembered?
The thing is, copyright still applies to story structure. If you copied the plot outline of Harry Potter and just filed off the serial numbers, then J.K. Rowling can still sue you for copyright infringement.
In fact, this is a key legal argument against the existence of fanfiction. (All fanfiction is technically illegal, but copyright has to be policed by the owner and nobody else.) If an author reads a fanfic of his/her work and gets inspired to write a similar story, then s/he is opened up to litigation by the writer of the fanfic.
Why do you think there are countless fanfics of copyrighted works, but barely any fan supplements for tabletop games that aren't OGL or a drivethrurpg vault initiative? Why is there no fanfic archive specifically for tabletop gamers to release fan supplements?
Also, the whole "make your own game" argument is identical to the "make your own story" argument used to criticize the existence of fanfiction. The thing is, Intellectual Property was only invented in the 19th century and for the entirety of preceding human history nobody was seen as owning stories. If copyright existed back then, then we wouldn't have any myth, folklore or fairy tales today because nobody would be allowed to retell other people's stories. Copyright is an aberration in the way that humans tell stories. It's fundamentally anti-human because it suppresses a natural and universal human psychological impulse. Treating stories as property is like making it illegal to see, swallow, breathe or pee without paying a fee to do so. It's not something you can enforce without causing more harm than good, which we are seeing right now. Storytelling is less immediately vital to human existence than being able to swallow, breathe or pee, so people don't notice the problems until it gets really bad. Like it is right now.
Why is Intellectual Property treated as something worth enforcing whereas cultural appropriation isn't? Nobody inherently owns anything, physical and intellectual property is a social construct that is enforced by living creatures. Stories are part of culture. Copyright is legally enforced protection against cultural appropriation. How is writing a book so different from a culture inventing their own fashions that copying the former is bad but copying the latter is okay? If a writer deserves to be paid for their work, then why doesn't a culture deserve to be paid for theirs? Conversely, why does any author need their work to be locked away for a century after their death rather than freely given to their culture and everyone else interested in it?
Anyway, my point is that copyright is bad because it causes a ton of unnecessary harm that could be easily prevented if stupid humans got off their lazy asses and fixed it. Proposing various questionable workarounds for a fundamentally unjust system is a tacit admission that said system is a failure and does nothing to advance any solution.
I can understand paying someone for their intellectual labor, but you can obviously compensate them
without making it illegal to make backup copies of their work until long past the point where all original copies have been destroyed by the relentless march of time and nobody is alive who remembers it ever existed. Even if I was able to buy immortality and physically wait that long myself and dedicate efforts to preservation, I have no guarantee that I won't die in an accident, or that the file formats would still be valid a century later when the copyright expired, or that the quality of the physical materials hadn't declined...
Like... is there any past instances of public domain work suddenly becoming an even vaguely popular IP a century or longer after publication while being completely ignored in the interim? I pretty much cannot think of any. Every century old IP that is remembered today was one that was actively refreshed in the public consciousness (or at least a dedicated subculture) by somebody more or less constantly over that century. The works of Edgar Rice Burroughs are actively kept trademarked by his estate, the Cthulhu mythos was maintained by Lovecraft's colleagues and fans... others like Dracula, Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, and the Wizard of Oz got lucky by being so successful upon their initial release that they were seared deeply into the public consciousness.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 21, 2023, 01:31:54 PM
If you have so much hate for the hobby why the fuck are you even here? Do something that brings you joy instead. The hate filled are generally a miserable lot, so let it go and be happy.
Again, hyperbole. People say stuff when they're emotional that they don't mean as seriously as others might interpret.
I'm trying to do things that only bring me joy. I'm currently working on some projects that are inspired by things I used to enjoy.
But that doesn't solve the various problems I'm concerned with. Just ignoring them in favor of only doing things that makes me happy sounds like a terrible way to live. Pain is part of being alive and you don't fix that by running away from it. Inevitably, I find fault with everything I used to enjoy. The problem isn't that I find fault. The problem is that the Powers That Be put stupid legal restrictions on me that prevent me from fixing the problems.
You know how everyone is upset that Hollywood has burned through so many IPs? Do you believe that the best thing to do is abandon those IPs completely and only ever focus on whatever things they can find that only bring joy? You can't seriously expect most people to do that. I've certainly tried to convince people to give up on their favorite soiled IPs and they always refuse.
Most people are lazy and want to do the bare minimum. There's been ample opportunity for disgruntled fans to make their own IPs, and for the most part
they haven't bothered. You think I'm gonna be any different? I already have a life and I don't have a lot of time or money to invest in creative pursuits, especially not hugely laborious ones like creating a substitute for a dead or soiled IP I used to like.
Have you tried single-handedly making a replacement for an IP you liked that was killed and/or soiled? It's hard.
I've dedicated so much introspection to this. The problem runs far deeper than you know. Our legal system is stacked against the human condition, most people are blissfully unaware of this, and those who do care don't have any power to fix it.
There's currently a bill to reform copyright (https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/576#:~:text=Introduced%20in%20House%20(01%2F26%2F2023)&text=This%20bill%20shortens%20the%20copyright,an%20additional%2028%2Dyear%20term.) in the USA. Do you know what prompted it? It wasn't the problems I discussed at length. It was proposed by republicans to childishly punish Disney for being woke by removing their copyrights. It only applies to Disney. It won't save anything else from copyright jail that was published before it could be legislated.
The only people with any power to fix the problems don't give a fuck and would rather pursue childish personal vendettas over improving the human condition.
It's hard not to hate humanity when our leaders are only ever idiots uninterested in solving our problems and the general populace has no interest in voting in people who actually understand and care about the problems. Humanity is basically telling me "you care about preserving art and culture for posterity? fuck you, loser nerd!"
Games I'd like to see again:
Star Frontiers (under that name)
Boot Hill
Top Secret
Gamma World
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 01:56:08 PM
I'm being hyperbolic. There's a difference.
No, you only think there is a difference. Not in your case.
Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 02:28:06 PM
Games I'd like to see again:
Star Frontiers (under that name)
Boot Hill
Top Secret
Gamma World
So, go play them. They all exist. What is the F'ing problem?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
The Aliens RPG is no substitute for Bug Hunters because Ridley Scott took a bit shit on it. It's far too much work for no gain to rewrite Alien when Bug Hunters already does everything I want. But good fucking luck finding adventures for it or anyone else interested in playing.
Bughunters is awesome.
But yeah, what's needed is for people to be more open to new things and stop looking back at ones we can never have. The reason I don't write material for GURPS, Rolemaster, or D&D any more is simply that I don't own them and can't control what the owners do with them.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 01:22:57 AM
On a different thread the argument about WotC owning so many IPs they do nothing with was brought up. The examples given were: Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Alternity, Amazing Engine, d20 Modern/Future/Past.
Nu-TSR I think showed there's some interest in having a new edition of Star Frontiers, barring the use of the name of the game, races, worlds, etc. Is there really a market for a retroclone? I mean mechanics and all.
Gamma World already has at least 5 AFAIK.
Alternity... Unless the mechanics are something really special couldn't you recreate it with Stars Without Number?
Amazing Engine... What's it about?
Does anyone REALLY want a retroclone of d20 Modern/Future/Past?
Retroclones in general: Yes! Look at the list of adamantine, mithral, and gold sellers on Drive-Thru RPG and you'll find: Against the Darkmaster, Black Hack, Cepheus Engine, DCC, Knave, OSE, Stars Without Number.. so many others. Even some from posters here: Pundit's Lion and Dragon. Eric Diaz' Dark Fantasy Basic. Estar's Majestic Fantasy. Some of those aren't pure retroclones, adding their own special sauce to the recipe. Maybe that's the trick.
Star Frontiers: Check out FrontierSpace, by DWD Studios. Platinum seller. They were behind the Star Frontiers Remastered and Star Frontiersmen project, before WOTC pulled the plug.
Alternity: Actually the mechanics are special (not saying good or bad, just special) but like Star Frontiers, the attraction is probably the aliens and setting.
D20 Modern: There's Modern20 and Grim Tales d20. Is there a market for another D20M retroclone? Who knows? There was a lot of criticism back in the day (wealth system, boring talents, firearms feats) that could be addressed.
Is there a market for Yet Another Version of X with house rules? Absolutely. Go make it!
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.
Your vampire ideas are great. Just take those and port it into Cepheus Engine. Add some art and formatting. Call it "The Undead Engine" and send it to Drive-Thru. Profit.
Your vampire clans are open content, right? I've got half a mind to do this myself!
Quote from: Aglondir on August 21, 2023, 02:58:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 01:22:57 AM
On a different thread the argument about WotC owning so many IPs they do nothing with was brought up. The examples given were: Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Alternity, Amazing Engine, d20 Modern/Future/Past.
Nu-TSR I think showed there's some interest in having a new edition of Star Frontiers, barring the use of the name of the game, races, worlds, etc. Is there really a market for a retroclone? I mean mechanics and all.
Gamma World already has at least 5 AFAIK.
Alternity... Unless the mechanics are something really special couldn't you recreate it with Stars Without Number?
Amazing Engine... What's it about?
Does anyone REALLY want a retroclone of d20 Modern/Future/Past?
Retroclones in general: Yes! Look at the list of adamantine, mithral, and gold sellers on Drive-Thru RPG and you'll find: Against the Darkmaster, Black Hack, Cepheus Engine, DCC, Knave, OSE, Stars Without Number.. so many others. Even some from posters here: Pundit's Lion and Dragon. Eric Diaz' Dark Fantasy Basic. Estar's Majestic Fantasy. Some of those aren't pure retroclones, adding their own special sauce to the recipe. Maybe that's the trick.
Star Frontiers: Check out FrontierSpace, by DWD Studios. Platinum seller. They were behind the Star Frontiers Remastered and Star Frontiersmen project, before WOTC pulled the plug.
Alternity: Actually the mechanics are special (not saying good or bad, just special) but like Star Frontiers, the attraction is probably the aliens and setting.
D20 Modern: There's Modern20 and Grim Tales d20. Is there a market for another D20M retroclone? Who knows? There was a lot of criticism back in the day (wealth system, boring talents, firearms feats) that could be addressed.
Is there a market for Yet Another Version of X with house rules? Absolutely. Go make it!
I'm not asking for myself, I'm doing my stuff and IDGAFF if there's a market or not, I'm doing it because it think it's cool, it's the games I want to play, maybe others think the same? Anyhow if I ever make any money from those that's just icing on the cake.
The question was because BCT was complaining about it, but he just clarified, he doesn't want a serial numbers filled retroclone of those (and other) games, he wants the exact same IP.
Quote from: Aglondir on August 21, 2023, 03:05:23 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.
Your vampire ideas are great. Just take those and port it into Cepheus Engine. Add some art and formatting. Call it "The Undead Engine" and send it to Drive-Thru. Profit.
Your vampire clans are open content, right? I've got half a mind to do this myself!
This is the way.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
That's a lot of work for no gain. I don't give a flying fuck about original settings, I want those existing IPs back. Or at least very close substitutes that recapture the magic.
The magic was never in the system, it was in what you did with it and is, in part, a function of where you were in your life at the time.
There is no way to truly recapture magic despite what peddlers of nostalgia wish you to believe.
There are opportunities to make new magic though.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 11:45:20 AM
To my friends in love with an IP:
Divest yourselfg emotionally from anything you don't own, I had to learn to do so thanks to DC, Marvel, etc. It's not easy but you must to preserve your sanity/peace of mind.
I agree with Tenbones, if you truly love some setting, go forth and create something in the spirit of, make it your own, you probably won't make a dime out of your efforts, but hey! It's a work of love!.
I'm doing my part with some stuff, so what are you waiting for? Go forth and create!
I really do think this post is key. Despite not myself being a game developer or creator, I can appreciate the point being made here. As well as the work being done by folks like GeekyBugle.
That said, I also admit that it can oftentimes be hard to be willing to walk away from a long beloved setting, gaming system, publisher or the like. And that if something like Ascendant were to go down I'd be heartbroken. I guess that's kind of just the risk that is run when you open your heart to a game, much though I recognize that when things get immoral and twisted like with WotC among others, it can be justifiably time to walk away.
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 21, 2023, 03:24:08 PM
The magic was never in the system, it was in what you did with it and is, in part, a function of where you were in your life at the time.
There is no way to truly recapture magic despite what peddlers of nostalgia wish you to believe.
There are opportunities to make new magic though.
FTW
Why not create your own game others can (wrongly) say is a retro-clone of FillInTheBlank?
Stop clout-chasing dead games. Make your own as if the previous PoS didn't exist, maybe?
(https://media.tenor.com/UiMmWNMGRpIAAAAC/its-time-to-grow-up-sebastian-wilder.gif)
Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 02:33:47 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 02:28:06 PM
Games I'd like to see again:
Star Frontiers (under that name)
Boot Hill
Top Secret
Gamma World
So, go play them. They all exist. What is the F'ing problem?
Have you been reading anything I wrote?
"Buy the books on ebay, pirate the PDF, what's the problem?"
I contacted the original authors of obscure books multiple times to fix issues with availability, and most of the time they couldn't help even though they wanted to or tried to. When I contacted the author of Grim Tales to get copies he told me he was afraid of being sued by WotC. When I contacted the author of Aether & Flux to put the PDF back on drivethrurpg we had a back and forth with tech support who said the problem wasn't fixed and they can't put the book back. When I contacted Mongoose about the Starship Troopers RPG disappearing, they said they couldn't sell the books anymore because the license expired.
Listen to me, and listen to me good: I have already tried everything you suggested and more. Do you know why I'm not satisfied? Because it doesn't solve the underlying fucking problem with availability. Physical books can be lost during a move, or damaged by accidents. Digital books can be lost by server issues, random drive failures, misplacing your external drive, etc. I have no idea how many books I've lost that way. In some cases the books may simply be unavailable period due to bad luck, because not every book is lucky enough to be preserved in decent quality. Drivethrurpg's business and their dedicated tech support is the only way to ensure that I and anyone else has ready access to these books for the foreseeable future, and they're not fucking reliable!
In order to build a community for a tabletop game, the books need to be readily accessible to everyone who is interested. Not just me personally. I live in an area where my only access to gaming groups is online. I don't have a fucking choice in the matter. I can only share games through PDFs, and I cannot promote nor use pirated PDFs because that opens me to litigation. All it takes is
one slipup to be locked out of my accounts forever. Most online venues will permaban you just for suggesting piracy.
So kindly sod off.
Quote from: Aglondir on August 21, 2023, 03:05:23 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.
Your vampire ideas are great. Just take those and port it into Cepheus Engine. Add some art and formatting. Call it "The Undead Engine" and send it to Drive-Thru. Profit.
Your vampire clans are open content, right? I've got half a mind to do this myself!
I wrote twelve pitches with one or two sentences each as a thought experiment, inspired by various sources, and released the text into the public domain.
The amount of work required to produce a professional looking game is a lot higher than that. I'm not attached to any particularly system, but writing the fluff (setting, advice, guidelines, etc) is hard enough by itself.
Those IPs I liked were produced by studios who could hire a dozen writers and artists to work on one book. I am just one person who already has a job and responsibilities. I don't have much free time for hobbies, and I have a lot of hobbies that I have to routinely pick on back burners for years at a time.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 03:05:28 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on August 21, 2023, 02:58:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 01:22:57 AM
On a different thread the argument about WotC owning so many IPs they do nothing with was brought up. The examples given were: Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Alternity, Amazing Engine, d20 Modern/Future/Past.
Nu-TSR I think showed there's some interest in having a new edition of Star Frontiers, barring the use of the name of the game, races, worlds, etc. Is there really a market for a retroclone? I mean mechanics and all.
Gamma World already has at least 5 AFAIK.
Alternity... Unless the mechanics are something really special couldn't you recreate it with Stars Without Number?
Amazing Engine... What's it about?
Does anyone REALLY want a retroclone of d20 Modern/Future/Past?
Retroclones in general: Yes! Look at the list of adamantine, mithral, and gold sellers on Drive-Thru RPG and you'll find: Against the Darkmaster, Black Hack, Cepheus Engine, DCC, Knave, OSE, Stars Without Number.. so many others. Even some from posters here: Pundit's Lion and Dragon. Eric Diaz' Dark Fantasy Basic. Estar's Majestic Fantasy. Some of those aren't pure retroclones, adding their own special sauce to the recipe. Maybe that's the trick.
Star Frontiers: Check out FrontierSpace, by DWD Studios. Platinum seller. They were behind the Star Frontiers Remastered and Star Frontiersmen project, before WOTC pulled the plug.
Alternity: Actually the mechanics are special (not saying good or bad, just special) but like Star Frontiers, the attraction is probably the aliens and setting.
D20 Modern: There's Modern20 and Grim Tales d20. Is there a market for another D20M retroclone? Who knows? There was a lot of criticism back in the day (wealth system, boring talents, firearms feats) that could be addressed.
Is there a market for Yet Another Version of X with house rules? Absolutely. Go make it!
I'm not asking for myself, I'm doing my stuff and IDGAFF if there's a market or not, I'm doing it because it think it's cool, it's the games I want to play, maybe others think the same? Anyhow if I ever make any money from those that's just icing on the cake.
The question was because BCT was complaining about it, but he just clarified, he doesn't want a serial numbers filled retroclone of those (and other) games, he wants the exact same IP.
I'm not attached to any particular rules. It's the fluff/lore/whatever that interests me. Worldbuilding is incredibly time consuming and hard and shit, so it's nice when you can just piggyback off somebody's else work. It's also nice to be able to pay them for their hard work.
All the games I've surveyed have problems when it comes to the lore part. Indies generally don't have the budgets to have much lore like 80s, 90s and 00s games did and in my experience the indie community doesn't care for lore anyway. If it's not sufficiently similar then it's not what I'm looking for in the first place, but if it's too similar then it opens itself to litigation. I'm between a rock and a hard place here. You can't just copy the lore and change some names, if the structure is sufficiently similar then you're open to litigation.
This isn't really a problem with something like say urban fantasy, since you can just draw on countless public domain sources, but when it comes to scifi and anything not public domain then you run into problems. Individual scifi tropes are safe, but the more detailed your work the more... well, even if none of the same names are used, you can still be sued for sufficiently similar structure. That's why the OGL was such an important development and why Hasbro tried to destroy it.
Much of this is also theoretical.
Stellaris uses tons of recognizable scifi tropes and hasn't been sued by Paramount or Disney, but I can't be sure that I'm safe if I tried that. Nobody else has tried it before me, trust me I looked. So rock and hard place.
Also, the Grim Tales original electronic PDFs were taken down from drivethrurpg in 2008 and all the pirated PDFs are shit quality scans (this is one of the reasons why telling me to pirate the PDFs is a stupid answer: there's no guarantee anyone filched the OEF PDF from drivethrurpg before it went down, or scanned a physical book, or that the quality isn't shit; I've encountered this problem multiple times already). I tried contacting the original author to get PDFs and he said he can't share them with me because he's afraid of being sued by WotC for making d20 content. That's why he took them down.
So the guy who wrote the game isn't allowed to share his own work or preserve it for posterity because he's afraid of being sued. He's not the first author of missing PDFs that I contacted who told me this. "I took my PDFs down because I'm afraid of WotC suing me" is a common refrain. Authors are terrorized into taking down their own work, with zero guarantee it will be preserved in any form. This is fucking stupid! The entire system is stacked against everyone who isn't fucking WotC! Even if the author wants to sell his PDFs and I want to give him my money, neither of us get what we want because of fucking WotC!
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 21, 2023, 03:24:08 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
That's a lot of work for no gain. I don't give a flying fuck about original settings, I want those existing IPs back. Or at least very close substitutes that recapture the magic.
The magic was never in the system, it was in what you did with it and is, in part, a function of where you were in your life at the time.
There is no way to truly recapture magic despite what peddlers of nostalgia wish you to believe.
There are opportunities to make new magic though.
Yeah... I tried that for a few months and then I gave up. Firstly, it's hella hard for one person without professional experience to create an entire space opera IP comparable to that created by a dozen professional writers over two years and a couple dozen books. Secondly, I was worried about being sued for being too similar. I don't think Hasbro actually would sue, but the law is the law and I'm not gonna risk my livelihood.
I haven't been able find suitable efforts by other people either. There's no post-apocalyptic rpg with cryptic alliances (https://mutant-future.fandom.com/wiki/Gamma_World/Cryptic_Alliances). The Mutant Future wiki literally just recaps the GW cryptic alliances and implies that you use them, doing so in a way that constitutes fair use.
This is just ridiculous. I don't want to commit crimes with a wink and nudge. I want to do something 100% legal that I can share freely with other people without worrying that a lawyer is gonna suddenly appear to exsanguinate me.
The only project that is really working for me right now is an urban fantasy for a video game test. The only reason that I have any confidence there is because I have ton of public domain material to protect me. I can't exactly replicate a lot of ideas from IPs I liked, but I don't need to in this case because there's so much genre material to begin with. If somebody tries to sue, then I can point to the public domain or other prior works to show that I'm not infringing their copyright.
Pretty much the root of all my problems is that I'm afraid of being sued for writing love letters to dead IPs or trying to preserve the works of nice people I've been in touch with.
Quote from: KindaMeh on August 21, 2023, 03:26:47 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 11:45:20 AM
To my friends in love with an IP:
Divest yourselfg emotionally from anything you don't own, I had to learn to do so thanks to DC, Marvel, etc. It's not easy but you must to preserve your sanity/peace of mind.
I agree with Tenbones, if you truly love some setting, go forth and create something in the spirit of, make it your own, you probably won't make a dime out of your efforts, but hey! It's a work of love!.
I'm doing my part with some stuff, so what are you waiting for? Go forth and create!
I really do think this post is key. Despite not myself being a game developer or creator, I can appreciate the point being made here. As well as the work being done by folks like GeekyBugle.
That said, I also admit that it can oftentimes be hard to be willing to walk away from a long beloved setting, gaming system, publisher or the like. And that if something like Ascendant were to go down I'd be heartbroken. I guess that's kind of just the risk that is run when you open your heart to a game, much though I recognize that when things get immoral and twisted like with WotC among others, it can be justifiably time to walk away.
The problem is that even if I filed off the serial numbers, simply using a sufficiently similar structure can open me to litigation. I have no idea where the dividing line is. I don't know how similar I can make my original work before I open myself to risk of litigation. I spent months writing a google doc of ideas before giving up because I couldn't balance my love for the original with my fear of litigation. That's my frustration.
Have you noticed how there are absolutely no 4X games that recapture the spirit or popularity of
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri? It's not for lack of trying, since Sid tried that with
Beyond Earth only to fail. Alpha Centauri is considered a classic of the genre that nothing else even comes close to. Planetfall, Stellaris, Endless Space... none of them have reached anywhere close to the cultural touchstone status that Alpha Centauri has. None of those other games have memorable characters and quotes like Alpha Centauri does.
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 21, 2023, 04:14:22 PM
Why not create your own game others can (wrongly) say is a retro-clone of FillInTheBlank?
Stop clout-chasing dead games. Make your own as if the previous PoS didn't exist, maybe?
(https://media.tenor.com/UiMmWNMGRpIAAAAC/its-time-to-grow-up-sebastian-wilder.gif)
No shit, Sherlock. As if I didn't think of that already. Again, tell that to everyone upset about Hollywood burning through beloved IPs.
"Oh just make
new IPs about superheroes, adventurer archaeologists, girly dolls, utopian space opera, space wizards, etc."
Most people don't want to do that. It's hard and we already have our own lives to deal with. Even if they did try your suggestion, most of them don't have the means to realize it. As shown by, oh, the complete lack of substitutes coming out for all those destroyed IPs.
Who has created a horrific memorable Giger monster to replaced the alien that Ridley Scott shat into oblivion? Who has created a superhero team to replace the Avengers and Justice League? Who has created new fairy tales to replace Disney? Nobody has done this. There are many millions of dissatisfied fans, so why is this absence so conspicuous? Before telling me to make my own stuff, ask yourself why so many others don't despite there being millions of us.
I'm not chasing these IPs for clout. As shown by nobody else on this forum knowing what even half of them are, obviously they don't bring me any clout. (This forum has an obvious bias for stuff contemporary with first edition A&D at latest; most of these IPs I mentioned are from the 90s and 00s.) I'm chasing them because I think they're cool and they died out before they could be driven into the ground like most living IPs have.
To be fair, I set myself a high goal by starting with
Star*Drive. A lot of my creative frustration comes from that specifically. Most of the IPs I remember fondly come from single books and magazine articles that are probably pretty easy to replicate without running afoul of copyright.
Take
Bug Hunters. It's basically a mashup of
Blade Runner with
Aliens. Humanity created replicants to fight alien monsters and robots leftover from an ancient alien war. Not exactly a lot of material that I'd need to skirt around to avoid copyright infringement. Which is why I'm surprised nobody else has down so already. The tropes of replicants and bug hunters and leftover weapons from ancient wars are not exactly obscure.
Or
Dark•Matter. There are a number of works involving ufos, cryptids, conspiracies, etc.
The X-Files,
Roswell Conspiracies: Aliens, Myths and Legends,
The Secret Saturdays, etc. It forms its own subculture because a lot of people genuinely believe in this stuff (although it's definitely died down compared to the 90s). The only really original bit that Dark•Matter adds is that it uses dark matter as a meta-origin for all the paranormal weirdness. The various aliens and cryptids, with the exception of the grays, came to earth through naturally occurring portals opened by dark matter activity. Psychic powers, magic, demons, etc are all tied into the dark matter. Dark matter behaves like a tide, and at the time the game was written it was rising and would change the world (possibly apocalyptically) in 2012 (naturally any similar game made now would need to address this). A lot of the original monsters were released in some form under the d20 Modern SRD. I could probably just make a ripoff, to the point of snatching the expired trademark for my work, but I enjoy the original IP and I think doing that would be really scummy. But
Everyday Heroes is apparently trying to rehash the various d20 Modern settings so I'd rather wait and see what they do before trying my own hand at it.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 04:54:46 PM
<snip>
What's wrong with you? You know no one is going to read this wall of text.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 04:54:46 PM
In order to build a community for a tabletop game, the books need to be readily accessible to everyone who is interested.
Wrong moron. None of my players have the physical books. They use PDF's and a tablet or phone for quick look up. Almost everyone I know uses PDFs. I only have one physical book of the game I'm running. The rest are PDFs. Throwing out falsehoods whenever someone offers a workable solution to a problem you present is indicative of a mental illness.
Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 02:33:47 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 02:28:06 PM
Games I'd like to see again:
Star Frontiers (under that name)
Boot Hill
Top Secret
Gamma World
So, go play them. They all exist. What is the F'ing problem?
I'd like to see them organized better, bound better, and supported with ongoing new material and electronic character generators and other stuff most modern RPGs get.
Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 05:29:07 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 02:33:47 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 02:28:06 PM
Games I'd like to see again:
Star Frontiers (under that name)
Boot Hill
Top Secret
Gamma World
So, go play them. They all exist. What is the F'ing problem?
I'd like to see them organized better, bound better, and supported with ongoing new material and electronic character generators and other stuff most modern RPGs get.
If that stops you from playing then you don't want to play them very much
The hard reality is that recognition is a huge factor in getting people to try things. For instance, with Rolemaster I generally point out it was the game advertised in the front and back covers of Dragon magazine back in the eighties. The reality is that it'd be nice to be able to get the sales boost from better known franchises without paying anyone anything.
I think David Sim's guide to self publishing comics is something every self publisher should read. From, the necessity of drawing Batman and Spiderman for money when you're getting started to the explanation of the problem of working for the property holder: "They will never pay you more than it will cost for the lawyers." It's a very worthwhile read.
Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 05:12:14 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 04:54:46 PM
In order to build a community for a tabletop game, the books need to be readily accessible to everyone who is interested.
Wrong moron. None of my players have the physical books. They use PDF's and a tablet or phone for quick look up. Almost everyone I know uses PDFs. I only have one physical book of the game I'm running. The rest are PDFs. Throwing out falsehoods whenever someone offers a workable solution to a problem you present is indicative of a mental illness.
Gatta add onto this. I've run multiple obscure games for my friends and introduced my gaming groups to all sorts of niche titles just as members in those groups have done the same. More times then not one of us owns the physical book and the pdf then they share the pdf for everyone else to use.
Yes. Content and interaction goes a long way in making and keeping a community engaged. But the most important thing is people doing stuff with that community. Just look at FFG 40k stuff. Dark Heresy, Death Watch and Only War are all discontinued games. But they have a vibrant community keeping them alive. The old traveller system isn't supported anymore and yet people still make modules for it that dislike the Mongoose systems. The many star wars rpg systems I see floating around each have their own fan bases despite most of those books no longer being in circulation.
Point is. If you love star frontiers. Make third party adventures. Encourage people to play it. Play it yourself. With time, like minded people will join you. That's how communities grow.
Regarding the thread title alone:
Apparently, if your RPG "X" can possibly be converted into some flavor of B/X D&D rules compatibility; there is a hot thriving market. Fan familiarity, and numerous existing compatible products already exist. Otherwise, I'd twist some type of D6 variant.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 04:54:46 PM
<snip>
Box, if it's something you're actually passionate about then the fact it'll take you years of offtime work to see a fully fleshed out project to completion isn't a big deal (nor is whether or not it takes the world like gangbusters).
And you shouldn't be worried about being sued for a sci-fi setting. There are so many sci-fi stories and films and tv shows out there using all manner of common setting elements that as long as it's not a direct port of a well known existing property then there's really nothing to worry about.
The same for urban fantasy.
But then some people would rather spend years and walls of texts bitching about why it can't be done when, if they'd devoted the same effort to actually building something they'd probably have something close to completion by now.
"But it's not..."
No. It's not.* It'll be better. Because it will be yours.
*and even if you had it, it still wouldn't feel the same because you're not the same person you were when you had and loved it.
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 22, 2023, 06:28:51 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 04:54:46 PM
<snip>
Box, if it's something you're actually passionate about then the fact it'll take you years of offtime work to see a fully fleshed out project to completion isn't a big deal (nor is whether or not it takes the world like gangbusters).
And you shouldn't be worried about being sued for a sci-fi setting. There are so many sci-fi stories and films and tv shows out there using all manner of common setting elements that as long as it's not a direct port of a well known existing property then there's really nothing to worry about.
The same for urban fantasy.
But then some people would rather spend years and walls of texts bitching about why it can't be done when, if they'd devoted the same effort to actually building something they'd probably have something close to completion by now.
"But it's not..."
No. It's not.* It'll be better. Because it will be yours.
*and even if you had it, it still wouldn't feel the same because you're not the same person you were when you had and loved it.
It's on my to do list. I'm never gonna be able to replicate the quality of my inspirations within a reasonable timeframe, but I can throw stuff on the wall and see what sticks.
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 22, 2023, 06:28:51 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 04:54:46 PM
<snip>
Box, if it's something you're actually passionate about then the fact it'll take you years of offtime work to see a fully fleshed out project to completion isn't a big deal (nor is whether or not it takes the world like gangbusters).
And you shouldn't be worried about being sued for a sci-fi setting. There are so many sci-fi stories and films and tv shows out there using all manner of common setting elements that as long as it's not a direct port of a well known existing property then there's really nothing to worry about.
The same for urban fantasy.
But then some people would rather spend years and walls of texts bitching about why it can't be done when, if they'd devoted the same effort to actually building something they'd probably have something close to completion by now.
"But it's not..."
No. It's not.* It'll be better. Because it will be yours.
*and even if you had it, it still wouldn't feel the same because you're not the same person you were when you had and loved it.
"If you argue for your limitations you get to keep them. But if you argue for your possibilities you get to create them!" -Kelly Lee Phipps
And believe me, I'm someone who's argued for his limitations A LOT throughout my life. And if there's something that it has taught me is that the above statement is the stone cold truth. If you're constantly bitching and whining about how you can't do shit because X or Y, then not doing shit is all you'll constantly do.
So Ima have to third this...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 03:06:16 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on August 21, 2023, 03:05:23 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.
Your vampire ideas are great. Just take those and port it into Cepheus Engine. Add some art and formatting. Call it "The Undead Engine" and send it to Drive-Thru. Profit.
Your vampire clans are open content, right? I've got half a mind to do this myself!
This is the way.
...quit your whining and work with what you have, not with what you don't. Probably start a blog or something and post about your world building there in the meantime (I should probably be doing this as well, but keep putting it off for any number of reasons). Then keep working on it even if it doesn't kick off at first (it won't, and doesn't for anyone... until it suddenly does). And eventually you'll have something.
But if you keep sending your limitations into the ether that's all you'll ever have (and me too).
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 22, 2023, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 22, 2023, 06:28:51 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 04:54:46 PM
<snip>
Box, if it's something you're actually passionate about then the fact it'll take you years of offtime work to see a fully fleshed out project to completion isn't a big deal (nor is whether or not it takes the world like gangbusters).
And you shouldn't be worried about being sued for a sci-fi setting. There are so many sci-fi stories and films and tv shows out there using all manner of common setting elements that as long as it's not a direct port of a well known existing property then there's really nothing to worry about.
The same for urban fantasy.
But then some people would rather spend years and walls of texts bitching about why it can't be done when, if they'd devoted the same effort to actually building something they'd probably have something close to completion by now.
"But it's not..."
No. It's not.* It'll be better. Because it will be yours.
*and even if you had it, it still wouldn't feel the same because you're not the same person you were when you had and loved it.
"If you argue for your limitations you get to keep them. But if you argue for your possibilities you get to create them!"
And believe me, I'm someone who's argued for his limitations A LOT throughout my life. And if there's something that it has taught me if that the above statement is the stone cold truth. If you're constantly bitching and whining about how you can't do shit because X or Y, then not doing shit is all you'll constantly do.
So Ima have to third this...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 03:06:16 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on August 21, 2023, 03:05:23 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 12:30:20 PM
I hate this hobby, I hate copyright law, and I hate humanity.
Your vampire ideas are great. Just take those and port it into Cepheus Engine. Add some art and formatting. Call it "The Undead Engine" and send it to Drive-Thru. Profit.
Your vampire clans are open content, right? I've got half a mind to do this myself!
This is the way.
...quit your whining and work with what you have, not with what you don't. Probably start a blog or something and post about your world building there in the meantime (I should probably be doing this as well, but keep putting it off for any number of reasons). Then keep working on it even if it doesn't kick off at first (it won't, and doesn't for anyone... until it suddenly does). And eventually you'll have something.
But if you keep sending your limitations into the ether that's all you'll ever have (and me too).
At this point I just wanna go "fuck it" and write straight-up copyright infringing fanfic of these authors' ideas. Rather than going to the effort of writing a retroclone or ripoff, I wanna to take the easy route and write fanfiction that recaps their work exactly. At most I'd file off serial numbers, revise stuff I think needs revising. What does it matter anyway? They're not profiting from their work. Their work usually isn't even legally available to the public, and the few times it is it's in the form of a back catalog that nobody gives a fuck about. It's locked in copyright jail not because the authors want it to be but because the law takes away their agency. The author of Grim Tales d20 is afraid to be sued by WotC if he tries selling his books. The author of Aether & Flux can't get help from Drivethrurpg's tech support. The authors of Alternity can't get the rights from WotC. Etc. This is just straight up evil. I would totally support these writers directly if they were running Patreons to share their works.
Stay tuned.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 10:47:34 AM
It's locked in copyright jail not because the authors want it to be but because the law takes away their agency.
100% WRONG! The AUTHORS SOLD THEIR "AGENCY" (I.P. rights) FOR MONEY. Are you REALLY this stupid and uneducated?
Quote from: Scooter on August 22, 2023, 11:17:46 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 10:47:34 AM
It's locked in copyright jail not because the authors want it to be but because the law takes away their agency.
100% WRONG! The AUTHORS SOLD THEIR "AGENCY" (I.P. rights) FOR MONEY. Are you REALLY this stupid and uneducated?
Did you not read any of the examples I just gave you? I'll repeat myself:
I noticed that Grim Tales and Slavelords of Cydonia wasn't sold on drivethrurpg anymore. I contacted the IP owner who told me he was afraid to sell because WotC might sue him. So he couldn't give me the PDFs for free or payment. Not because he didn't want to, but because he was afraid of WotC suing him. And considering the recent OGL debacle, I don't blame him. WotC doesn't even need an actual case they could win if push came to shove, they can ruin him financially just by wasting his money on frivolously defending himself in court.
I noticed that Aether & Flux wasn't sold on drivethrurpg. I contacted the IP owner who told me there was a bug that drivethrurpg refused to fix despite his compliance. It has been unavailable for several years now, despite me contacting both the author and drivethrurpg several times. They don't even respond to my messages anymore.
Do you have any idea how frustrating that is? I can't just pirate the PDFs in this case. The authors are free to sue me for denying them profits. They don't deserve that either, because they're not locking their books because they want to. I want to support them, but external circumstances beyond their control prevent them from preserving their own work.
What do you expect me to do in this situation? What am I supposed to do about these books 10, 20, 50 years from now?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 02:28:22 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 22, 2023, 11:17:46 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 10:47:34 AM
It's locked in copyright jail not because the authors want it to be but because the law takes away their agency.
100% WRONG! The AUTHORS SOLD THEIR "AGENCY" (I.P. rights) FOR MONEY. Are you REALLY this stupid and uneducated?
Did you not read any of the examples I just gave you? I'll repeat myself:
I noticed that Grim Tales and Slavelords of Cydonia wasn't sold on drivethrurpg anymore. I contacted the IP owner who told me he was afraid to sell because WotC might sue him. So he couldn't give me the PDFs for free or payment. Not because he didn't want to, but because he was afraid of WotC suing him. And considering the recent OGL debacle, I don't blame him. WotC doesn't even need an actual case they could win if push came to shove, they can ruin him financially just by wasting his money on frivolously defending himself in court.
I noticed that Aether & Flux wasn't sold on drivethrurpg. I contacted the IP owner who told me there was a bug that drivethrurpg refused to fix despite his compliance. It has been unavailable for several years now, despite me contacting both the author and drivethrurpg several times. They don't even respond to my messages anymore.
Do you have any idea how frustrating that is? I can't just pirate the PDFs in this case. The authors are free to sue me for denying them profits. They don't deserve that either, because they're not locking their books because they want to. I want to support them, but external circumstances beyond their control prevent them from preserving their own work.
What do you expect me to do in this situation? What am I supposed to do about these books 10, 20, 50 years from now?
In the first two examples you give you ARE wrong, you contacted the creator not the IP owner, if he were the IP owner WotC couldn't sue him.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 02:28:22 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 22, 2023, 11:17:46 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 10:47:34 AM
It's locked in copyright jail not because the authors want it to be but because the law takes away their agency.
100% WRONG! The AUTHORS SOLD THEIR "AGENCY" (I.P. rights) FOR MONEY. Are you REALLY this stupid and uneducated?
Did you not read any of the examples I just gave you? I'll repeat myself:
Yes, I did and you are WRONG. Just because some idiot didn't handle HIS contract correctly or, doesn't know what he's blathering on about doesn't mean it is copyright jail. If one uses another's IP in their product and don't have an AIRTIGHT contract they are a moron.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 02:45:01 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 02:28:22 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 22, 2023, 11:17:46 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 10:47:34 AM
It's locked in copyright jail not because the authors want it to be but because the law takes away their agency.
100% WRONG! The AUTHORS SOLD THEIR "AGENCY" (I.P. rights) FOR MONEY. Are you REALLY this stupid and uneducated?
Did you not read any of the examples I just gave you? I'll repeat myself:
I noticed that Grim Tales and Slavelords of Cydonia wasn't sold on drivethrurpg anymore. I contacted the IP owner who told me he was afraid to sell because WotC might sue him. So he couldn't give me the PDFs for free or payment. Not because he didn't want to, but because he was afraid of WotC suing him. And considering the recent OGL debacle, I don't blame him. WotC doesn't even need an actual case they could win if push came to shove, they can ruin him financially just by wasting his money on frivolously defending himself in court.
I noticed that Aether & Flux wasn't sold on drivethrurpg. I contacted the IP owner who told me there was a bug that drivethrurpg refused to fix despite his compliance. It has been unavailable for several years now, despite me contacting both the author and drivethrurpg several times. They don't even respond to my messages anymore.
Do you have any idea how frustrating that is? I can't just pirate the PDFs in this case. The authors are free to sue me for denying them profits. They don't deserve that either, because they're not locking their books because they want to. I want to support them, but external circumstances beyond their control prevent them from preserving their own work.
What do you expect me to do in this situation? What am I supposed to do about these books 10, 20, 50 years from now?
In the first two examples you give you ARE wrong, you contacted the creator not the IP owner, if he were the IP owner WotC couldn't sue him.
In these cases the creator and copyright owner are the same person. They self-published. And their work was released under the OGL.
The creator and owner of Grim Tales was afraid of WotC's hissy fit in 2008 and is now permanently afraid to sell his OGL work. WotC has zero grounds to sue him, he's just being paranoid.
The creator and owner of Aether & Flux doesn't have legal problems at all. Drivethrurpg just refuses to put the book back up because they said the bug isn't fixed.
I could totally pirate their books (if the PDFs existed and weren't unreadable unoptimized shit tier quality scans that crash if you try to open them), but they're not acting like jerks and childishly refusing to sell their books for stupid reasons. They actively want to sell their books but external (and incredibly stupid) factors are forcing them not to. One guy is afraid WotC will sue him because he used the OGL to write his books (and considering the recent OGL debacle I don't blame him for paranoia), the other is trying to fix it but drivethrurpg refuses to comply.
Do you understand the situation now?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 03:09:49 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 02:45:01 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 02:28:22 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 22, 2023, 11:17:46 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 10:47:34 AM
It's locked in copyright jail not because the authors want it to be but because the law takes away their agency.
100% WRONG! The AUTHORS SOLD THEIR "AGENCY" (I.P. rights) FOR MONEY. Are you REALLY this stupid and uneducated?
Did you not read any of the examples I just gave you? I'll repeat myself:
I noticed that Grim Tales and Slavelords of Cydonia wasn't sold on drivethrurpg anymore. I contacted the IP owner who told me he was afraid to sell because WotC might sue him. So he couldn't give me the PDFs for free or payment. Not because he didn't want to, but because he was afraid of WotC suing him. And considering the recent OGL debacle, I don't blame him. WotC doesn't even need an actual case they could win if push came to shove, they can ruin him financially just by wasting his money on frivolously defending himself in court.
I noticed that Aether & Flux wasn't sold on drivethrurpg. I contacted the IP owner who told me there was a bug that drivethrurpg refused to fix despite his compliance. It has been unavailable for several years now, despite me contacting both the author and drivethrurpg several times. They don't even respond to my messages anymore.
Do you have any idea how frustrating that is? I can't just pirate the PDFs in this case. The authors are free to sue me for denying them profits. They don't deserve that either, because they're not locking their books because they want to. I want to support them, but external circumstances beyond their control prevent them from preserving their own work.
What do you expect me to do in this situation? What am I supposed to do about these books 10, 20, 50 years from now?
In the first two examples you give you ARE wrong, you contacted the creator not the IP owner, if he were the IP owner WotC couldn't sue him.
In these cases the creator and copyright owner are the same person. They self-published. And their work was released under the OGL.
The creator and owner of Grim Tales was afraid of WotC's hissy fit in 2008 and is now permanently afraid to sell his OGL work. WotC has zero grounds to sue him, he's just being paranoid.
The creator and owner of Aether & Flux doesn't have legal problems at all. Drivethrurpg just refuses to put the book back up because they said the bug isn't fixed.
I could totally pirate their books (if the PDFs existed and weren't unreadable unoptimized shit tier quality scans that crash if you try to open them), but they're not acting like jerks and childishly refusing to sell their books for stupid reasons. They actively want to sell their books but external (and incredibly stupid) factors are forcing them not to. One guy is afraid WotC will sue him because he used the OGL to write his books (and considering the recent OGL debacle I don't blame him for paranoia), the other is trying to fix it but drivethrurpg refuses to comply.
Do you understand the situation now?
So the creator and IP holder isn't selling due to his own stupidity? Okay.
That DTRPG refuses to fix something they should be fixing IS BS, or is this something IN the PDF? If it's the latter then it's up to the author to fix it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
So the creator and IP holder isn't selling due to his own stupidity? Okay.
He seemed nice enough in his messages. The last we spoke he said he just wasn't interested in maintaining an IP from the early 2000s because he had real life to deal with. That's a pretty common answer I get whenever I talk to people about stuff they wrote 10, 20 or more years ago. "I have too much real life stuff to deal with, so I can't be bothered with this stuff I wrote decades ago."
Most writers just aren't interested in preserving their legacy for future generations. They just don't consider it important enough to go through the insane hassle involved. Most of our cultural output from the 20th century onward is not being preserved due to overly long copyright terms and that is gonna leave a noticeable gap in historical and literary records. A century or two from now it's gonna be easy to find something published in 1923 but extremely difficult or impossible to find something published in 2023.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
That DTRPG refuses to fix something they should be fixing IS BS, or is this something IN the PDF? If it's the latter then it's up to the author to fix it.
I don't know the exact details. The creator submitted a new PDF and drivethrurpg still says its broken. I downloaded the PDF myself (I was fortunate enough to have bought it before the takedown) and there's no problem with the file. I don't know what has drivethru's knickers in a twist. They stopped returning my messages. I haven't been able to get in contact with the creator again.
The only part of the book I liked were the space travel rules and the tables for system generation anyway.
The reason I liked the space travel rules was because, unlike something like spelljammer, they weren't dependent on magic so you could load them into low magic settings or even steampunk settings. The author/owner invented some fake fantasy physics involving "ether" and a fantastical version of electricity called "flux". Ether was almost everywhere and concentrated at different densities on planets, in outer space, at the edge of systems (it created a pseudo-crystal sphere called the "pale ether"), and in interstellar space (the "traverse" where FTL travel was possible). Normally ether didn't interact with matter at all. But by running an electric current through wires made of certain metals, ether would repel the wires with force sufficient to counter gravity. You stick these wires to the back of a sail, you've created a ship that can fly thru the sky and even reach escape velocity. Various other machines used flux to generate power (a "flux capacitor"), generate gravity, scrub atmosphere, and lightning guns. The repulsion produced by ether scaled inversely with its concentration, so interstellar space (the lowest concentration of ether) would push ships at FTL speeds. The pale ether at the edge of systems created a natural barrier: you had to disable your flux capacitor to travel through it, otherwise the passage would shred everything conducting flux current at the moment of impact. An idiom for entering interstellar space was, naturally, "beyond the pale."
Quite frankly, recycling his ether and flux concepts probably wouldn't run afoul of copyright at all. You can't copyright an idea. The names are straight up references to Victorian outdated scientific hypothesis and the movie
Back To The Future.
All this bullshit is why I'm gonna release my work into public domain. I don't want to waste my time on the hassle involved in maintaining it by myself. Let Internet Archive, Project Gutenberg, Wikisource, etc do it. I can't take my money into the grave, so I might as well leave a legacy.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 03:09:49 PM
In these cases the creator and copyright owner are the same person. They self-published. And their work was released under the OGL.
The creator and owner of Grim Tales was afraid of WotC's hissy fit in 2008 and is now permanently afraid to sell his OGL work.
More irrelevant babble. The BOTTOM LINE is that he didn't get an IRONCLAD contract BEFORE investing time and money into someone else's IP. His stupid mistake NOT a problem with the copyright laws. GET IT NOW?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
So the creator and IP holder isn't selling due to his own stupidity? Okay.
He seemed nice enough in his messages. The last we spoke he said he just wasn't interested in maintaining an IP from the early 2000s because he had real life to deal with. That's a pretty common answer I get whenever I talk to people about stuff they wrote 10, 20 or more years ago. "I have too much real life stuff to deal with, so I can't be bothered with this stuff I wrote decades ago."
Most writers just aren't interested in preserving their legacy for future generations. They just don't consider it important enough to go through the insane hassle involved. Most of our cultural output from the 20th century onward is not being preserved due to overly long copyright terms and that is gonna leave a noticeable gap in historical and literary records. A century or two from now it's gonna be easy to find something published in 1923 but extremely difficult or impossible to find something published in 2023.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
That DTRPG refuses to fix something they should be fixing IS BS, or is this something IN the PDF? If it's the latter then it's up to the author to fix it.
I don't know the exact details. The creator submitted a new PDF and drivethrurpg still says its broken. I downloaded the PDF myself (I was fortunate enough to have bought it before the takedown) and there's no problem with the file. I don't know what has drivethru's knickers in a twist. They stopped returning my messages. I haven't been able to get in contact with the creator again.
The only part of the book I liked were the space travel rules and the tables for system generation anyway.
The reason I liked the space travel rules was because, unlike something like spelljammer, they weren't dependent on magic so you could load them into low magic settings or even steampunk settings. The author/owner invented some fake fantasy physics involving "ether" and a fantastical version of electricity called "flux". Ether was almost everywhere and concentrated at different densities on planets, in outer space, at the edge of systems (it created a pseudo-crystal sphere called the "pale ether"), and in interstellar space (the "traverse" where FTL travel was possible). Normally ether didn't interact with matter at all. But by running an electric current through wires made of certain metals, ether would repel the wires with force sufficient to counter gravity. You stick these wires to the back of a sail, you've created a ship that can fly thru the sky and even reach escape velocity. Various other machines used flux to generate power (a "flux capacitor"), generate gravity, scrub atmosphere, and lightning guns. The repulsion produced by ether scaled inversely with its concentration, so interstellar space (the lowest concentration of ether) would push ships at FTL speeds. The pale ether at the edge of systems created a natural barrier: you had to disable your flux capacitor to travel through it, otherwise the passage would shred everything conducting flux current at the moment of impact. An idiom for entering interstellar space was, naturally, "beyond the pale."
Quite frankly, recycling his ether and flux concepts probably wouldn't run afoul of copyright at all. You can't copyright an idea. The names are straight up references to Victorian outdated scientific hypothesis and the movie Back To The Future.
All this bullshit is why I'm gonna release my work into public domain. I don't want to waste my time on the hassle involved in maintaining it by myself. Let Internet Archive, Project Gutenberg, Wikisource, etc do it. I can't take my money into the grave, so I might as well leave a legacy.
Have you tried convincing him of putting it in the public domain? Or giving you permision to mantain/publish it?
Those mechanics can be reworked to put them in the public domain, send them to me and I'll do it for you.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:00:25 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
So the creator and IP holder isn't selling due to his own stupidity? Okay.
He seemed nice enough in his messages. The last we spoke he said he just wasn't interested in maintaining an IP from the early 2000s because he had real life to deal with. That's a pretty common answer I get whenever I talk to people about stuff they wrote 10, 20 or more years ago. "I have too much real life stuff to deal with, so I can't be bothered with this stuff I wrote decades ago."
Most writers just aren't interested in preserving their legacy for future generations. They just don't consider it important enough to go through the insane hassle involved. Most of our cultural output from the 20th century onward is not being preserved due to overly long copyright terms and that is gonna leave a noticeable gap in historical and literary records. A century or two from now it's gonna be easy to find something published in 1923 but extremely difficult or impossible to find something published in 2023.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
That DTRPG refuses to fix something they should be fixing IS BS, or is this something IN the PDF? If it's the latter then it's up to the author to fix it.
I don't know the exact details. The creator submitted a new PDF and drivethrurpg still says its broken. I downloaded the PDF myself (I was fortunate enough to have bought it before the takedown) and there's no problem with the file. I don't know what has drivethru's knickers in a twist. They stopped returning my messages. I haven't been able to get in contact with the creator again.
The only part of the book I liked were the space travel rules and the tables for system generation anyway.
The reason I liked the space travel rules was because, unlike something like spelljammer, they weren't dependent on magic so you could load them into low magic settings or even steampunk settings. The author/owner invented some fake fantasy physics involving "ether" and a fantastical version of electricity called "flux". Ether was almost everywhere and concentrated at different densities on planets, in outer space, at the edge of systems (it created a pseudo-crystal sphere called the "pale ether"), and in interstellar space (the "traverse" where FTL travel was possible). Normally ether didn't interact with matter at all. But by running an electric current through wires made of certain metals, ether would repel the wires with force sufficient to counter gravity. You stick these wires to the back of a sail, you've created a ship that can fly thru the sky and even reach escape velocity. Various other machines used flux to generate power (a "flux capacitor"), generate gravity, scrub atmosphere, and lightning guns. The repulsion produced by ether scaled inversely with its concentration, so interstellar space (the lowest concentration of ether) would push ships at FTL speeds. The pale ether at the edge of systems created a natural barrier: you had to disable your flux capacitor to travel through it, otherwise the passage would shred everything conducting flux current at the moment of impact. An idiom for entering interstellar space was, naturally, "beyond the pale."
Quite frankly, recycling his ether and flux concepts probably wouldn't run afoul of copyright at all. You can't copyright an idea. The names are straight up references to Victorian outdated scientific hypothesis and the movie Back To The Future.
All this bullshit is why I'm gonna release my work into public domain. I don't want to waste my time on the hassle involved in maintaining it by myself. Let Internet Archive, Project Gutenberg, Wikisource, etc do it. I can't take my money into the grave, so I might as well leave a legacy.
Have you tried convincing him of putting it in the public domain? Or giving you permision to mantain/publish it?
Those mechanics can be reworked to put them in the public domain, send them to me and I'll do it for you.
I did what I could. I already have a ton of stuff on my plate to deal with. So here's their contact info:
You can find Brian Moseley's (the author of
Aether & Flux) website here: http://www.darkfuries.com/support.html His email is listed and he has a facebook page for his company. I haven't been able to get in touch with him but you might have better luck than me.
You can find Benjamin Durbin's (the author of
Grim Tales) website here: https://web.archive.org/web/20190623172208/http://www.badaxegames.com/contact-us/ his email is listed there. His email worked last time I checked two years ago (if the support address bounces then I can give you another email he used to contact me). You might have better luck with him than me.
Good luck. If you need anymore help, then contact me privately on Guilded. Thanks and have fun!
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 05:24:55 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:00:25 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
So the creator and IP holder isn't selling due to his own stupidity? Okay.
He seemed nice enough in his messages. The last we spoke he said he just wasn't interested in maintaining an IP from the early 2000s because he had real life to deal with. That's a pretty common answer I get whenever I talk to people about stuff they wrote 10, 20 or more years ago. "I have too much real life stuff to deal with, so I can't be bothered with this stuff I wrote decades ago."
Most writers just aren't interested in preserving their legacy for future generations. They just don't consider it important enough to go through the insane hassle involved. Most of our cultural output from the 20th century onward is not being preserved due to overly long copyright terms and that is gonna leave a noticeable gap in historical and literary records. A century or two from now it's gonna be easy to find something published in 1923 but extremely difficult or impossible to find something published in 2023.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
That DTRPG refuses to fix something they should be fixing IS BS, or is this something IN the PDF? If it's the latter then it's up to the author to fix it.
I don't know the exact details. The creator submitted a new PDF and drivethrurpg still says its broken. I downloaded the PDF myself (I was fortunate enough to have bought it before the takedown) and there's no problem with the file. I don't know what has drivethru's knickers in a twist. They stopped returning my messages. I haven't been able to get in contact with the creator again.
The only part of the book I liked were the space travel rules and the tables for system generation anyway.
The reason I liked the space travel rules was because, unlike something like spelljammer, they weren't dependent on magic so you could load them into low magic settings or even steampunk settings. The author/owner invented some fake fantasy physics involving "ether" and a fantastical version of electricity called "flux". Ether was almost everywhere and concentrated at different densities on planets, in outer space, at the edge of systems (it created a pseudo-crystal sphere called the "pale ether"), and in interstellar space (the "traverse" where FTL travel was possible). Normally ether didn't interact with matter at all. But by running an electric current through wires made of certain metals, ether would repel the wires with force sufficient to counter gravity. You stick these wires to the back of a sail, you've created a ship that can fly thru the sky and even reach escape velocity. Various other machines used flux to generate power (a "flux capacitor"), generate gravity, scrub atmosphere, and lightning guns. The repulsion produced by ether scaled inversely with its concentration, so interstellar space (the lowest concentration of ether) would push ships at FTL speeds. The pale ether at the edge of systems created a natural barrier: you had to disable your flux capacitor to travel through it, otherwise the passage would shred everything conducting flux current at the moment of impact. An idiom for entering interstellar space was, naturally, "beyond the pale."
Quite frankly, recycling his ether and flux concepts probably wouldn't run afoul of copyright at all. You can't copyright an idea. The names are straight up references to Victorian outdated scientific hypothesis and the movie Back To The Future.
All this bullshit is why I'm gonna release my work into public domain. I don't want to waste my time on the hassle involved in maintaining it by myself. Let Internet Archive, Project Gutenberg, Wikisource, etc do it. I can't take my money into the grave, so I might as well leave a legacy.
Have you tried convincing him of putting it in the public domain? Or giving you permision to mantain/publish it?
Those mechanics can be reworked to put them in the public domain, send them to me and I'll do it for you.
I did what I could. I already have a ton of stuff on my plate to deal with. So here's their contact info:
You can find Brian Moseley's (the author of Aether & Flux) website here: http://www.darkfuries.com/support.html His email is listed and he has a facebook page for his company. I haven't been able to get in touch with him but you might have better luck than me.
You can find Benjamin Durbin's (the author of Grim Tales) website here: https://web.archive.org/web/20190623172208/http://www.badaxegames.com/contact-us/ his email is listed there. His email worked last time I checked two years ago (if the support address bounces then I can give you another email he used to contact me). You might have better luck with him than me.
Good luck. If you need anymore help, then contact me privately on Guilded. Thanks and have fun!
I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.
But if you don't want to hey!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:39:36 PM
I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.
But if you don't want to hey!
See, this is exactly my point. "I've never heard of it, therefore it's worthless." Nobody gives a flying fuck about preserving any of this shit for future generations. "Oh, kids in 100 years won't know what Hanna Barbera cartoons were? Eh, fuck those worthless shits anyway. I got mine!" We might as just burn all books now for all the difference it makes.
Anyway, I probably don't need your help to do that. I just summarized it all in my last post. What copyrighted info is there left to scrub?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 05:55:16 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:39:36 PM
I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.
But if you don't want to hey!
See, this is exactly my point. "I've never heard of it, therefore it's worthless." Nobody gives a flying fuck about preserving any of this shit for future generations. "Oh, kids in 100 years won't know what Hanna Barbera cartoons were? Eh, fuck those worthless shits anyway. I got mine!" We might as just burn all books now for all the difference it makes.
Anyway, I probably don't need your help to do that. I just summarized it all in my last post. What copyrighted info is there left to scrub?
Dude, chill. People are going to great lengths to preserve the good stuff but no one has time to look at it all and preserve everything. If you are passionate about this material, meet us half way. Don't make me, or anyone else, have to do two days of digging to get to this.
Quote from: BadApple on August 22, 2023, 06:30:21 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 05:55:16 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:39:36 PM
I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.
But if you don't want to hey!
See, this is exactly my point. "I've never heard of it, therefore it's worthless." Nobody gives a flying fuck about preserving any of this shit for future generations. "Oh, kids in 100 years won't know what Hanna Barbera cartoons were? Eh, fuck those worthless shits anyway. I got mine!" We might as just burn all books now for all the difference it makes.
Anyway, I probably don't need your help to do that. I just summarized it all in my last post. What copyrighted info is there left to scrub?
Dude, chill. People are going to great lengths to preserve the good stuff but no one has time to look at it all and preserve everything. If you are passionate about this material, meet us half way. Don't make me, or anyone else, have to do two days of digging to get to this.
I've spent years trying to preserve things and there is so much I can't preserve despite trying. There's infinitely more I'm not aware of. It's all tragic af. You're not telling me anything I don't already know and you're preaching to the choir.
Meet you halfway how? Pirating the books by sending you PDF copies? I'm not risking being banned from drivethrurpg and sued for all I'm worth. The entire reason I'm upset is because the law punishes us for trying to preserve these books. The trove has been taken down multiple times. Piracy is not a reliable way of preserving these books.
Look at the alternityrpg.net forum. The most users online was 21 people in 2007... 16 years ago. That's what happens to a community without ready legal access to the books. It withers away and dies.
I've had it up to here with all this legal bullshit. Trying to preserve these books just isn't worth it. I'm gonna write ripoffs of these IPs I liked and release my work into public domain so that other people can do whatever they want with it. That's the only thing I can do that doesn't make me tear my hair out.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 07:07:26 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 22, 2023, 06:30:21 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 05:55:16 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:39:36 PM
I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.
But if you don't want to hey!
See, this is exactly my point. "I've never heard of it, therefore it's worthless." Nobody gives a flying fuck about preserving any of this shit for future generations. "Oh, kids in 100 years won't know what Hanna Barbera cartoons were? Eh, fuck those worthless shits anyway. I got mine!" We might as just burn all books now for all the difference it makes.
Anyway, I probably don't need your help to do that. I just summarized it all in my last post. What copyrighted info is there left to scrub?
Dude, chill. People are going to great lengths to preserve the good stuff but no one has time to look at it all and preserve everything. If you are passionate about this material, meet us half way. Don't make me, or anyone else, have to do two days of digging to get to this.
I've spent years trying to preserve things and there is so much I can't preserve despite trying. There's infinitely more I'm not aware of. It's all tragic af. You're not telling me anything I don't already know and you're preaching to the choir.
Meet you halfway how? Pirating the books by sending you PDF copies? I'm not risking being banned from drivethrurpg and sued for all I'm worth. The entire reason I'm upset is because the law punishes us for trying to preserve these books. The trove has been taken down multiple times. Piracy is not a reliable way of preserving these books.
Look at the alternityrpg.net forum. The most users online was 21 people in 2007... 16 years ago. That's what happens to a community without ready legal access to the books. It withers away and dies.
I've had it up to here with all this legal bullshit. Trying to preserve these books just isn't worth it. I'm gonna write ripoffs of these IPs I liked and release my work into public domain so that other people can do whatever they want with it. That's the only thing I can do that doesn't make me tear my hair out.
RPGs aren't books or films. The real preservation of them is keeping the games in the hands of players. I'm on your side but you need to refocus your energy into what you really want.
First things first, select a manageable sized portion of RPGs that you want to save and then
buy the dead tree copies. Then, decide what part of the material is what you're trying to save. Is it the setting? Is the art? Is it mechanics or game play loop?
Finally, develop a product and put it out in such a way that it takes the best of what you love about what you're trying to preserve. In the end, it isn't about me having an exact experience that someone else at another table has but that we take what we love and enjoy and share it in our own way.
Quote from: BadApple on August 22, 2023, 08:29:53 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 07:07:26 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 22, 2023, 06:30:21 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 05:55:16 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2023, 05:39:36 PM
I don't know those games, not gonna waste my time chasing the authors, I was asking for you to send me the mechanics of aether you liked so I can rework them to release as public domain.
But if you don't want to hey!
See, this is exactly my point. "I've never heard of it, therefore it's worthless." Nobody gives a flying fuck about preserving any of this shit for future generations. "Oh, kids in 100 years won't know what Hanna Barbera cartoons were? Eh, fuck those worthless shits anyway. I got mine!" We might as just burn all books now for all the difference it makes.
Anyway, I probably don't need your help to do that. I just summarized it all in my last post. What copyrighted info is there left to scrub?
Dude, chill. People are going to great lengths to preserve the good stuff but no one has time to look at it all and preserve everything. If you are passionate about this material, meet us half way. Don't make me, or anyone else, have to do two days of digging to get to this.
I've spent years trying to preserve things and there is so much I can't preserve despite trying. There's infinitely more I'm not aware of. It's all tragic af. You're not telling me anything I don't already know and you're preaching to the choir.
Meet you halfway how? Pirating the books by sending you PDF copies? I'm not risking being banned from drivethrurpg and sued for all I'm worth. The entire reason I'm upset is because the law punishes us for trying to preserve these books. The trove has been taken down multiple times. Piracy is not a reliable way of preserving these books.
Look at the alternityrpg.net forum. The most users online was 21 people in 2007... 16 years ago. That's what happens to a community without ready legal access to the books. It withers away and dies.
I've had it up to here with all this legal bullshit. Trying to preserve these books just isn't worth it. I'm gonna write ripoffs of these IPs I liked and release my work into public domain so that other people can do whatever they want with it. That's the only thing I can do that doesn't make me tear my hair out.
RPGs aren't books or films. The real preservation of them is keeping the games in the hands of players. I'm on your side but you need to refocus your energy into what you really want.
First things first, select a manageable sized portion of RPGs that you want to save and then buy the dead tree copies.
Then, decide what part of the material is what you're trying to save. Is it the setting? Is the art? Is it mechanics or game play loop?
Finally, develop a product and put it out in such a way that it takes the best of what you love about what you're trying to preserve. In the end, it isn't about me having an exact experience that someone else at another table has but that we take what we love and enjoy and share it in our own way.
I've started a thread in the development forum. Go there if you're interested in discussing how to recycle the magic for new generations, and in the public domain this time.
I've been reading this thread and brooding on it a bit.
@BoxCrayonTales - I get your lament for the loss of IPs. Like GeekyBugle, I've watched all my favorite IP's descend into madness. Lifelong collector of comics since the 60's... the entire American comics scene is a post-nuclear wasteland of gamma-irradiated dogshit. It's TTRPG's that saved me from my lament, because ultimately it made me realize that WE are the ones in control of what we consume and run at our table.
It's not the paper these mechanics are printed on that are holy. You're not preserving these things for posterity - because they're only alive if you use them and hand them down to others. But the reality is *they will die*. Just like countless sports have died. (https://www.topendsports.com/sport/extinct/list.htm#:~:text=Cuju%20%E2%80%94%20an%20ancient%20Chinese%20ball,Rome%2C%20usualy%20to%20the%20death.)
And yes, we need people like you to carry their torch as far as you possibly can. The reality is, that journey is its own reward, and you need to face that. Like many of these dead sports - their elements were passed down to *new* sports which carry their DNA. Arguably better? The point is what GeekyBugle (and myself) are saying - it takes people with the passion and drive to create those new games, draw on inspiration and create something new(ish). There's ALWAYS going to be holdouts of the old guard in gaming (and any other hobby). There are still people that hand-craft wagon-wheels for horse-drawn carriages, I still run MSH and maintain it's one of the greatest systems ever made... but lets face it, it will never be more than it is without someone reimagining it.
That could be you. So take this obvious passion and energy to make something new, that's yours - the best heartbreaker ever - and DO IT. Don't do it out of revenge, do it for the love of the game.
Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 11:19:49 AM
I've been reading this thread and brooding on it a bit.
@BoxCrayonTales - I get your lament for the loss of IPs. Like GeekyBugle, I've watched all my favorite IP's descend into madness. Lifelong collector of comics since the 60's... the entire American comics scene is a post-nuclear wasteland of gamma-irradiated dogshit. It's TTRPG's that saved me from my lament, because ultimately it made me realize that WE are the ones in control of what we consume and run at our table.
It's not the paper these mechanics are printed on that are holy. You're not preserving these things for posterity - because they're only alive if you use them and hand them down to others. But the reality is *they will die*. Just like countless sports have died. (https://www.topendsports.com/sport/extinct/list.htm#:~:text=Cuju%20%E2%80%94%20an%20ancient%20Chinese%20ball,Rome%2C%20usualy%20to%20the%20death.)
And yes, we need people like you to carry their torch as far as you possibly can. The reality is, that journey is its own reward, and you need to face that. Like many of these dead sports - their elements were passed down to *new* sports which carry their DNA. Arguably better? The point is what GeekyBugle (and myself) are saying - it takes people with the passion and drive to create those new games, draw on inspiration and create something new(ish). There's ALWAYS going to be holdouts of the old guard in gaming (and any other hobby). There are still people that hand-craft wagon-wheels for horse-drawn carriages, I still run MSH and maintain it's one of the greatest systems ever made... but lets face it, it will never be more than it is without someone reimagining it.
That could be you. So take this obvious passion and energy to make something new, that's yours - the best heartbreaker ever - and DO IT. Don't do it out of revenge, do it for the love of the game.
Again, I started a thread in the design forum.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 01:56:08 PM
The thing is, copyright still applies to story structure. If you copied the plot outline of Harry Potter and just filed off the serial numbers, then J.K. Rowling can still sue you for copyright infringement.
How do you explain
Sword of Shannara which is
Lord of the Rings with serial numbers filed off. The author was never sued by the Tolkien estate, and I understand they are a fairly litigious bunch.
Quote from: Ruprecht on September 03, 2023, 10:34:06 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 01:56:08 PM
The thing is, copyright still applies to story structure. If you copied the plot outline of Harry Potter and just filed off the serial numbers, then J.K. Rowling can still sue you for copyright infringement.
How do you explain Sword of Shannara which is Lord of the Rings with serial numbers filed off. The author was never sued by the Tolkien estate, and I understand they are a fairly litigious bunch.
Copyright rests on very specific word order, not broad themes or similar resolutions. I could totally retell GoT with the names filed off and some tweaks (make it sci-fi, the kingdoms are all different planets, the Wall is a giant ring gate built to hold out a race of ancient alien race, dragons were ancient gene-locked warships, the Others are now Greys who employ bioweapons that convert organic matter into their foot soldiers, Valerian steel becomes lostech power suits that can resist and kill Greys built by the same people who built the dragons/warships, etc.).
Of course I'd actually need to write my own ending since GRRM refuses to provide one and HBO's ending sucked (not the Dany being evil and nutty part... that was telegraphed back to GRRM's writing... just that they saved it for the penultimate episode as a "twist" and turned everything else to shit to get there), but I could absolutely use the majority of the story beats so long as I wrote everything in my own words and included a bit of my own ideas sprinkled in.
Quote from: Ruprecht on September 03, 2023, 10:34:06 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2023, 01:56:08 PM
The thing is, copyright still applies to story structure. If you copied the plot outline of Harry Potter and just filed off the serial numbers, then J.K. Rowling can still sue you for copyright infringement.
How do you explain Sword of Shannara which is Lord of the Rings with serial numbers filed off. The author was never sued by the Tolkien estate, and I understand they are a fairly litigious bunch.
It's called Percy Jackson and the Olympians.
My point was specific to "copyright still applies to story structure". Sword of Shannara apes the Lord of the Rings story structure fairly closely and yet was never sued by the sue happy Tolkien estate. So copyright doesn't really apply to story structure but to the combination of story/characters/and specific scenarios.
I've seen the argument used before.
Well it sounds like you want to raise the dead on something that is effectively dead and impossible to raise.
The IP's are owned by people that have no desire (apparently) to continue to market and publish them. There are obviously reasons for that - be that lack of interest, lack of ROI, etc.
There is a level of entitlement to those IP's I find you're fetishizing in a pathological fashion - *and I get it* - but I also find that you're placing an unholy amount of desire for "authenticity" which is a complete illusion.
Just because the word "Alternity" is slapped on something, and the IP holder gave you the complete total endorsement, doesn't mean that your version of "Alternity" would be any better than your "Alternate Reality Alternity" you could make on your own.
In fact- the D&D Edition wars should be proof of that. Marketing is what most designers take for granted. And today - that also means, unfortunately, the reality of Social Media being part of that equation, where once upon a time when literally all of these IP's were created, it most certainly wasn't. Each new edition kept and lost players, but the lack of marketing on those respective editions, outside of Pathfinder (as a flavor of 3.x) have never been more than putting up a walled garden around an IDEA. And that's not BAD.
The problem here is you demand specific IP's to be active again, against the wills of their owners. Well I want Marvel Comics to be what it was during the Jim Shooter era... and that simply is never going to happen.
What could happen is - you could go that route of stealing someone's IP and take those unnecessary risks if you intend to profit from it. Or you could just put all that energy and passion in to reimagining something new and infect others with that passion, because you're selling yourself short if you think that new IP's aren't attractive. It's all about the execution.
This is the realization that the D&D Fantasy player-base still has yet to learn: the system is NOT the game. The settings, overt or implied, are what has held people long term. Whether that's your homebrewed setting, or Dragonlance, or the Realms, or Greyhawk, Mystara, Darksun, blah blah blah... people that fell out of the hobby did so on their own, likely for the fact that they played in shallow adventure-based campaigns, but those that came back likely came back because *someone* got them to engage more deeply.
Those that never left, found means to continue the IP's of their choice forward. That's YOU (and me and many others here). Take that knowledge you have and run with it. Leave the IP's in the graveyards locked away in their mausoleums because those owners don't give a shit about you or anyone else here. But if you try to profit off their IP's, it might be an entirely different adventure you end up on...
We've been over this already. I would not be making spiritual successors if I thought the dead IPs I liked, or just thought were interesting enough to run with, had a snowball's chance in hell of coming back. That's the point of making a spiritual successor. I'm the last person you need to lecture about this. I'm well aware of the legal issues and I'm interested in settings, not rules.
Right now my main problem is trying to be close enough to retain what fans liked about the originals (alien races, stellar nations, cryptic alliances, etc), while changing just enough to avoid opening myself to litigation. I don't know where the dividing line is because I'm not trying to replicate conventional plots with characters and such. I'm trying to replicate lore. Trying to file off the serial numbers at the bare minimum is mentally exhausting for me. It doesn't engage my creative muscles, it's just tedious.
I shouldn't need to waste my time filing off serial numbers to avoid the risk of litigation. Copyright lasts far too long: it should last 20-30 years at most, not over a century! These IPs are dead and never coming back, so it serves no purpose to lock them behind copyright and prevent fans from preserving and remixing it. But the legal system is what it is and all attempts to fix this stupid shit have failed, so I'll just do what I can.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 05, 2023, 03:19:22 PM
I shouldn't need to waste my time filing off serial numbers to avoid the risk of litigation. Copyright lasts far too long: it should last 20-30 years at most, not over a century!
Not true. Since it is decided as a democracy they last as long as the people decide. Unless, you think you should be the dictator of the USA?
Quote from: Scooter on September 05, 2023, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 05, 2023, 03:19:22 PM
I shouldn't need to waste my time filing off serial numbers to avoid the risk of litigation. Copyright lasts far too long: it should last 20-30 years at most, not over a century!
Not true. Since it is decided as a democracy they last as long as the people decide. Unless, you think you should be the dictator of the USA?
Wrong, IP law in the US has been decided by Disney's deep pockets for DECADES now.
Saddly many other countries mimic whatever the US makes.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 05, 2023, 04:16:17 PM
Wrong, IP law in the US has been decided by Disney's deep pockets for DECADES now.
Saddly many other countries mimic whatever the US makes.
Wrong. If people want it changed they just need to contact their reps. I have worked on the Hill. If even a TINY minority of people in most house districts call their Rep about it it WILL be changed ASAP. MOST constituents don't care though. So, the MAJORITY has spoken or refused to speak. That's how a democracy works.
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
Copyright term limits were never voted on by the general public. That's not how laws are passed. It was legislated by the government after Disney lobbied them multiple times.
What sane person votes to extend copyright to last for 90 years after the author has died? What purpose does that serve?
When copyright was first legislated, terms lasted 14 years because nobody needed them to last longer. Due to Disney lobbying, it has been extended to last for 90 years after death or 120 years for corporate owned works. This was done only so that Disney could retain ownership of the Steamboat Willy cartoon, not because it helped the general public.
The downside is that these terms make it impossible to preserve the overwhelming majority of works created since the 1920s. Copies are lost or destroyed before they can be preserved. It's ridiculous!
Some US state representatives have proposed laws to reduce the terms, but nothing has passed yet.
Quote from: Scooter on September 05, 2023, 04:38:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 05, 2023, 04:16:17 PM
Wrong, IP law in the US has been decided by Disney's deep pockets for DECADES now.
Saddly many other countries mimic whatever the US makes.
Wrong. If people want it changed they just need to contact their reps. I have worked on the Hill. If even a TINY minority of people in most house districts call their Rep about it it WILL be changed ASAP. MOST constituents don't care though. So, the MAJORITY has spoken or refused to speak. That's how a democracy works.
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
Translation: "I said one thing and when proven wrong instead of recognizing my error I now postulate an hypotethical that nobody can prove or disprove"
Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 05:51:49 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 05:29:07 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 02:33:47 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 21, 2023, 02:28:06 PM
Games I'd like to see again:
Star Frontiers (under that name)
Boot Hill
Top Secret
Gamma World
So, go play them. They all exist. What is the F'ing problem?
I'd like to see them organized better, bound better, and supported with ongoing new material and electronic character generators and other stuff most modern RPGs get.
If that stops you from playing then you don't want to play them very much
I am an adult with a family and full time job and multiple good hobbies and friends and responsibilities. My free time for playing RPGs is much more limited than it used to be, and games which provide more support are the ones I am going to consider given those realities. It's not about desire, it's about time management.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 05, 2023, 06:31:20 PM
Copyright term limits were never voted on by the general public.
You're not the sharpest crayon in the box are you?
Quote from: Scooter on September 05, 2023, 03:33:00 PM
Not true. Since it is decided as a democracy they last as long as the people decide. Unless, you think you should be the dictator of the USA?
People are allowed to think a law is bad, last time I checked.
IP law is not decided by the US alone, but by multiple international treaties, trade agreements, etc.
It is similar in most of the world.
(I'm against IP on principle. Anyone is welcome to pirate my books, although I'd appreciate a sale if you can afford it! :D )
(also, "the people decides" hahahahahahahahah)
Copyright was originally invented to protect authors from piracy. The government intended that, after being granted this monopoly for a limited time to profit, the author would then pay back by giving their work to the public domain. Economically, there's no point to having copyright last more than two decades. The overwhelming majority of works aren't profitable after that point, and trademark law still protects names and likenesses indefinitely if used consistently. For example, no corpo wants to touch the works of Edgar Rich Burroughs because his estate maintains the trademarks.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 05, 2023, 08:40:55 PM
For example, no corpo wants to touch the works of Edgar Rich Burroughs because his estate maintains the trademarks.
Wrong. Tarzan is a trademark but the stories are past copyright. So the entire story could be made into a movie by simply changing name of the character. If the story was compelling enough it would be used
Quote from: Scooter on September 05, 2023, 09:14:42 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 05, 2023, 08:40:55 PM
For example, no corpo wants to touch the works of Edgar Rich Burroughs because his estate maintains the trademarks.
Wrong. Tarzan is a trademark but the stories are past copyright. So the entire story could be made into a movie by simply changing name of the character. If the story was compelling enough it would be used
For someone constantly berating others as idiots, your reading comprehension isn't great.
Re-read what Box said... no one really wants to touch Tarzan as a commercial property because the ERB estate maintains trademarks on all the big names.
He wasn't arguing you couldn't use the stories because of copyright; he's arguing that because you can't slap the name "Tarzan" on it without paying a licensing fee to the ERB estate, few are interested in turning his public domain books into films or television.
Similarly, if Action Comics #1 became public domain tomorrow; sure you could use Superman, Clark Kent, Lois Lane and the Daily Star in your works; but you couldn't slap "Superman" on the cover, nor depict the hero in his traditional attire (that's trademarked).
In short, public domain Action Comics #1 is near worthless without the Superman (and associated) trademarks.
One of the main reasons you see certain villains return every half dozen years and various minor characters get limited series is just to maintain the trademarks.
Quote from: Chris24601 on September 06, 2023, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: Scooter on September 05, 2023, 09:14:42 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 05, 2023, 08:40:55 PM
For example, no corpo wants to touch the works of Edgar Rich Burroughs because his estate maintains the trademarks.
Wrong. Tarzan is a trademark but the stories are past copyright. So the entire story could be made into a movie by simply changing name of the character. If the story was compelling enough it would be used
For someone constantly berating others as idiots, your reading comprehension isn't great.
No, it's awesome which is why I destroyed his false argument. Idiot.
Quote from: Chris24601 on September 06, 2023, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: Scooter on September 05, 2023, 09:14:42 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 05, 2023, 08:40:55 PM
For example, no corpo wants to touch the works of Edgar Rich Burroughs because his estate maintains the trademarks.
Wrong. Tarzan is a trademark but the stories are past copyright. So the entire story could be made into a movie by simply changing name of the character. If the story was compelling enough it would be used
For someone constantly berating others as idiots, your reading comprehension isn't great.
Re-read what Box said... no one really wants to touch Tarzan as a commercial property because the ERB estate maintains trademarks on all the big names.
He wasn't arguing you couldn't use the stories because of copyright; he's arguing that because you can't slap the name "Tarzan" on it without paying a licensing fee to the ERB estate, few are interested in turning his public domain books into films or television.
Similarly, if Action Comics #1 became public domain tomorrow; sure you could use Superman, Clark Kent, Lois Lane and the Daily Star in your works; but you couldn't slap "Superman" on the cover, nor depict the hero in his traditional attire (that's trademarked).
In short, public domain Action Comics #1 is near worthless without the Superman (and associated) trademarks.
One of the main reasons you see certain villains return every half dozen years and various minor characters get limited series is just to maintain the trademarks.
Quotes to live by...
(https://www.quotemaster.org/images/83/832963e61210af79d9c1cce1fbd79075.png)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXCD_jaWoAIVANv.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/H5mH5PYqzQU/maxresdefault.jpg)
You will never get any other outcome. Ever. ;)
Anyway, I still see people writing fanfic of ERB's characters all the time. There's rule34 of John Carter and Dejah Thoris. There's even rule34 of John Carter and Tarzan.
Btw This is not an isolated phenomenon. Unscrupulous publishers now release public domain books with romance novel covers unrelated to the content because it sells: https://www.branding.news/2019/06/13/these-books-are-topping-the-charts-and-its-not-because-of-content/
I remember reading one absurdist tale where Dejah Thoris finds herself inexplicably transported to Westeros and, among other absurd events, mistakes a common house cat for an evil alien conqueror.
The public domain is good for keeping works preserved and recycled into new stories. If nothing else, then they at least get referenced or have youtube essays written on them.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 06, 2023, 07:51:41 PM
Anyway, I still see people writing fanfic of ERB's characters all the time. There's rule34 of John Carter and Dejah Thoris. There's even rule34 of John Carter and Tarzan.
Btw This is not an isolated phenomenon. Unscrupulous publishers now release public domain books with romance novel covers unrelated to the content because it sells: https://www.branding.news/2019/06/13/these-books-are-topping-the-charts-and-its-not-because-of-content/
I remember reading one absurdist tale where Dejah Thoris finds herself inexplicably transported to Westeros and, among other absurd events, mistakes a common house cat for an evil alien conqueror.
The public domain is good for keeping works preserved and recycled into new stories. If nothing else, then they at least get referenced or have youtube essays written on them.
You can use the ERB characters all you want even in commercial products, what you can't do is call your comic Tarzan, John Carter, etc. Because those are trademarks, but you can use the names inside without issue.
Lord of the Apes/Jungle
Warlord of Mars
Those are valid titles, just use the names of the characters INSIDE, because those ARE public domain, but you can't use them as the titles because of trademark.
But trademark is different from copyright, would you argue anyone should be able to fabricate a car and sell it as Ford Mustang?
Yeah. That's why I'm so mystified that Disney lobbied for extending copyright multiple times. Trademark already exists to prevent competitors from misleading customers.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2023, 01:01:32 PM
Yeah. That's why I'm so mystified that Disney lobbied for extending copyright multiple times. Trademark already exists to prevent competitors from misleading customers.
They want to prevent you from ever having the smallest chance to compete with them using their own shit.
Because they are evil.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2023, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2023, 01:01:32 PM
Yeah. That's why I'm so mystified that Disney lobbied for extending copyright multiple times. Trademark already exists to prevent competitors from misleading customers.
They want to prevent you from ever having the smallest chance to compete with them using their own shit.
Because they are evil.
They've also managed to effectively trademark Steamboat Willie by turning the most iconic section of it into the animated Disney Animation logo.
I'm not sure that car models are quite analogous with creative works of fiction. But even to the degree that they are (there's a fair degree of creative work involved in their design), if you're allowed to work off a car model to design your own variant vehicle for commercial distribution, I would hope that you'd be allowed to advertise it as a variant of that design, even if you're not allowed to call it that model (such as "The New Road Stallion, based on the 19XX Mustang Ford, blah, blah, bah"). But the way trademark works you're not even allowed to mention that a story about an established character is about that character, even though the character is in your story, using the exact same name (you can't call it "Lord of the Jungle...a Tarzan story" or whatever).
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 06, 2023, 08:37:26 PM
But trademark is different from copyright, would you argue anyone should be able to fabricate a car and sell it as Ford Mustang?
Ford already does that. They made an electric go cart and called it a Mustang. I suppose since it is their brand they can shit on it all they want.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 08, 2023, 04:43:19 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 06, 2023, 08:37:26 PM
But trademark is different from copyright, would you argue anyone should be able to fabricate a car and sell it as Ford Mustang?
Ford already does that. They made an electric go cart and called it a Mustang. I suppose since it is their brand they can shit on it all they want.
You should know Ford isn't "anyone", yes, it is their brand, their trademark and they can do with it as they see fit.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 08, 2023, 05:51:45 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 08, 2023, 04:43:19 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 06, 2023, 08:37:26 PM
But trademark is different from copyright, would you argue anyone should be able to fabricate a car and sell it as Ford Mustang?
Ford already does that. They made an electric go cart and called it a Mustang. I suppose since it is their brand they can shit on it all they want.
You should know Ford isn't "anyone", yes, it is their brand, their trademark and they can do with it as they see fit.
When all ones arguments fail why not go Straw Man?
EVERYTHING is a StRaWmAn!
Now the guy who calls everything a strawman is calling strawman on the OTHER guy who calls everything a strawman! This is gonna be good.
Strawmanception! 8)
(https://www.shutterstock.com/shutterstock/photos/173165477/display_1500/stock-photo-group-of-scarecrows-stand-together-in-the-garden-173165477.jpg)