Quote from: Voros;969379Lifepaths don't create backgrounds??

They do, and apparently, backgrounds, history, backstory is garbage and storygames...  Supposedly.  Unless, of course, it's in a game system that certain people want to claim is not Storygame.  Whee!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969166But Lifepaths are a 'storygame' mechanic, they add the 'dreaded' back story for players to work with.

Traveller

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969435They do, and apparently, backgrounds, history, backstory is garbage and storygames...  Supposedly.  Unless, of course, it's in a game system that certain people want to claim is not Storygame.  Whee!

Backstory is Story game material now?

And isn't backstory, character history and background the same thing?

Quote from: AsenRG;969143While I agree with the rest of your examples, or at least the ones I'm familiar with, I'd point out that Beyond the Wall's "playbooks" are actually just lifepaths, much closer to Cyberpunk2020 than to any other game out there;).

Hmmm I thought BtW playbooks were more than that, also containing progression options and other things thematic to that character type, like PbtA playbooks. If that's not the case, you are right.

Quote from: estar;969443Traveller

Quote from: Nexus;969450Backstory is Story game material now?

And isn't backstory, character history and background the same thing?

I already stated that 'storygame' and RPG are meaningless terms that more or less mean the same thing.  What it boils down to, given my understanding, the term is Storygame is leveled at any whose mechanics is too far removed from anything Pundit and several others want to claim as 'proper'.

Some of the labels in these conversations are meaningless, although I would differentiate a game like Microscope as being a seperate type of game to D&D however, and 'storygame' is as good a name for this type of game as any other.

For the record, though, I think:

"Traditional RPG" - is an insulting term as it implies a rejection of innovation and new ideas, which is rarely the case.

"Narrative" vs "Simulationist"  vs "Gamist" - is a bullshit debate, as the best games seem to involve all three aspects as well as others. Much of the time, "simulationist" just seems to be another derogative label used by self avowed "narrativists". If the game involves players explaining their actions to a referee and then rolling dice or some other method to determine outcome, then they are the same type of game as D&D. They may have other ideas or innovations to add to the mix, but saying that they are another type of game is a pretence. Games like Munchausen or Fiasco or Microscope do change the emphasis of gameplay somewhat though, so I think they are indeed a slightly different category.

"Indie" game - is a pretence also. The RPG hobby is small, so any notion of having big, faceless businesses for an indie market to be alternative to is a nonsense. Moreover, many games that purport to be indie are anything but the sort: FATE is a generic system, open for third parties including licenses; The Burning Wheel system was licensed to make Mouse Guard, etc. The playing field for all these games is entirely level.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969452I already stated that 'storygame' and RPG are meaningless terms that more or less mean the same thing.  What it boils down to, given my understanding, the term is Storygame is leveled at any whose mechanics is too far removed from anything Pundit and several others want to claim as 'proper'.

I don't disagree with your premise. I was asking if someone had actually straight up called them that, serious question.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;969452I already stated that 'storygame' and RPG are meaningless terms that more or less mean the same thing.  What it boils down to, given my understanding, the term is Storygame is leveled at any whose mechanics is too far removed from anything Pundit and several others want to claim as 'proper'.

While I agree with this in a general, I think games like Munchausen and Microscope deserve a distinction from ones like D&D and Vampire, don't you think? I think treating these as separate sub-genre of a greater genre makes more sense.

Quote from: Itachi;969477While I agree with this in a general, I think games like Munchausen and Microscope deserve a distinction from ones like D&D and Vampire, don't you think? I think treating these as separate sub-genre of a greater genre makes more sense.

Yep. D&D and Vampire are role-playing games. Microscope and Munchausen may have roleplaying elements, but honestly they are closer to things like Once Upon a Time, which is a storytelling game. I think the distinction is clear here, its just that the term 'storytelling' has become used in some roleplaying games as a design value of sorts. However, the real emphasis in Vampire or Fate is still on the playing of roles primarily. Story is essentially a by product.

Quote from: Itachi;969477While I agree with this in a general, I think games like Munchausen and Microscope deserve a distinction from ones like D&D and Vampire, don't you think? I think treating these as separate sub-genre of a greater genre makes more sense.

I agree. I don't think the lines are quite as distinct as others might but there are differences.

There are differences but if Cameron's The Terminator, Tarkovsky's The Mirror and Brakhage's Dogstar Man are all uncontroversially understood to be films (and they are) I think the obsession with parsing the differences between RPGs is more idealogical rather than formal or aesthetic.

Quote from: AsenRG;969419They do, but creating a background, by itself, can be a simulationist mechanic.

Sorry but that seems to be a distinction in search of a point.

I'm also often confused by some gamers embrace of terms like simulationist. I thought this was the lingo of the detested heretic Forgites? Who first introduced this term into RPG design?

But then despite how many claim to hold Ronnie in contempt you see his terms being used by the OSR all the time: heartbreakers, pink slime fantasy, even braindamage. For someone so wrong he certainly had a sustaining influence.

Quote from: Voros;969529There are differences but if Cameron's The Terminator, Tarkovsky's The Mirror and Brakhage's Dogstar Man are all uncontroversially understood to be films (and they are) I think the obsession with parsing the differences between RPGs is more idealogical rather than formal or aesthetic.

Actually, I've found that denying or obscuring differences in RPGs is usually ideological as well.  People have no problem saying whether or not a game has a dice pool system, or is OGL compatible, or is Roll and Keep, or skill based vs. class based and making determinations based on those mechanical criteria.

Suggest that you can do the same to identify whether a game has an OOC meta-point economy, or includes OOC player-facing choices as part of core resolution mechanics, and watch the denial begin.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

In film people distinguish between an action film, an art film and an experimental film. But everyone agrees that they are films. And I've never seen a respected film critic claim that a certain genre or kind of film somehow isn't a film. And most people who are self-identified film fans love all kinds of films: noir, HK action movies, musicals, character studies, horror films, silent, experimental, et al. You may prefer certain genres but as a fan you're very unlikely to condemn a genre that doesn't work for you and claim it isn't even a film!

But you encounter people all the time proclaiming this or that game isn't really an RPG. People don't usually have an issue with categorizing a film because if they really love film it doesn't come with a value judgement. They recognize there are good and bad horror films, good and bad musicals, etc. Not 'horror is bad' or 'musicals are bad.' To make an argument against an entire genre or form would get you laughed at (some have tried, very unsuccessfully).

But for some reason in the RPG comunity these names are full of value judgements, that's why people are always fighting over them.

If the use of storygame wasn't often loaded with contempt it probably wouldn't be such a big deal. And add to that the term is applied incredibly sloppily, somehow including not only Fiasco, Once Upon a Time and 1001 Nights but AW, Fate, Dread, etc. I get the feeling if Toon or Ghostbusters was released today they would be called 'storygames.'