Is there any OSR RPG, that threatens to topple OSE from the number 1 spot?

RabidWookie · September 08, 2023, 04:56:34 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 02, 2023, 09:03:06 PM
I doubt it.

As a latecomer to the OSR, there are four games I regard as having had a significant degree of mainstream (within the already niche world of RPGs) success: Old School Essentials, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Dungeon Crawl Classics, and Castles & Crusades.

Of the four, DCC looked like it was breaking through at one point, but it seems to have tapered off. I think it's just too weird, with all the zany dice and random tables, to ever really take over. Castles and Crusades would be my pick for an OSE-killer, but for some reason (possibly because a lot of people dislike the SIEGE engine) it's never caught on. Lamentations is too controversial, and let's be honest: James Raggi has no interest in being a game designer.

Behind those, there's a pretty wide swath of what I'd call "2nd tier" OSR games: stuff like Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea, Machinations of the Space Princess, Lion and Dragon or Worlds/Stars Without Number. For my money, that's where you find the more interesting games, because they're taking the skeleton of Basic D&D and building new games on it, rather than restating the same game a little bit differently. Those will never take over, though, because that's not what most people want from the OSR.

Shadowdark looked like it might have broken big, just for having that "OSR for the 5e crowd" cachet, but it seems to have been a flash in the pan.

P.S. I know OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord were important in their time, but nobody I see seems to play them anymore.

I think DCC's problem is it's refusal to incorporate exploration mechanics or iterate in any way on it's emaciated frame.

Bruwulf · September 08, 2023, 04:58:21 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 08, 2023, 04:47:28 PMIt was common enough (I certainly did it in multiple groups) that about 14 years ago I wrote about it in a blog post titled "Intermediate D&D". I suspect some variant of "Intermediate D&D" was the standard back then, which is why I have a hard time taking the BrOSR guys too seriously.

I refuse to believe the BrOSR thing is anything other than elaborate performative hoax.

RabidWookie · September 08, 2023, 05:07:20 PM

Quote from: Bruwulf on September 08, 2023, 04:58:21 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 08, 2023, 04:47:28 PMIt was common enough (I certainly did it in multiple groups) that about 14 years ago I wrote about it in a blog post titled "Intermediate D&D". I suspect some variant of "Intermediate D&D" was the standard back then, which is why I have a hard time taking the BrOSR guys too seriously.

I refuse to believe the BrOSR thing is anything other than elaborate performative hoax.

They all but admit that. It's cultish nonsense.

Cities Without Number is brilliant, by the way. It's a clean and intuitive OSR version of Shadowrun/Cyberpunk.

Scooter · September 08, 2023, 05:35:51 PM

Quote from: GamerforHire on September 08, 2023, 04:55:29 PM
To capture that spirit of "how we did it in the day" I have been thinking of taking S&W Whitebox or similar and combining it with the Arduin Trilogy to create the 1970's experience. I could use S&W Complete, or just Whitebox, but nothing else other than those two. Let the period mash-up begin!

If you want to capture the "70's experience" including kludgy mechanics just play one. Why reinvent?

Persimmon · September 08, 2023, 05:37:50 PM

Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 05:39:08 PM
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons by laying it out and tightly editing it in an impeccable manner.

I'd argue Rules Cyclopedia D&D is the definitive best expression of Dungeons & Dragons. Gavin Norman stubbornly refuses to incorporate any of BECMI/RC's additions into OSE or an OSE supplement for some strange reason.

I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.

Gavin has been pretty forthright in noting that he doesn't like many of the rules tweaks of BECMI from B/X and that he thinks the game went into a bit of a power creep/bloat with the BECMI Rules sets that deviated from the B/X vision/promise. He also seems to think few groups play past level 10 anyhow, so why bother? Not my words, just trying to encapsulate things I've see him state in various places.

Brad · September 08, 2023, 06:03:24 PM

Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.

If ACKII actually uses a coherent combat system, then I am all for it.

RabidWookie · September 08, 2023, 06:11:10 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on September 08, 2023, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 05:39:08 PM
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons by laying it out and tightly editing it in an impeccable manner.

I'd argue Rules Cyclopedia D&D is the definitive best expression of Dungeons & Dragons. Gavin Norman stubbornly refuses to incorporate any of BECMI/RC's additions into OSE or an OSE supplement for some strange reason.

I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.

Gavin has been pretty forthright in noting that he doesn't like many of the rules tweaks of BECMI from B/X and that he thinks the game went into a bit of a power creep/bloat with the BECMI Rules sets that deviated from the B/X vision/promise. He also seems to think few groups play past level 10 anyhow, so why bother? Not my words, just trying to encapsulate things I've see him state in various places.

There's a strangely snobby attitude amongst some B/X diehards towards BECMI/RC that I've never understood. B/X was never intended to stop at level 14, and few groups played past level 10 because there wasn't anything interesting to do past level 10 before BECMI. War Machine, Fighter Combat Options, Domain management, and the Stronghold construction rules are all fantastic and purely additive to B/X. Weapon Mastery and skills are more controversial, but they're 100% optional. There's no logic to his argument. The BECMI Thief is underpowered, but so is the B/X Thief. The easy fix is using the AD&D 2e point buy system for Thief skills instead of the static progression.

RabidWookie · September 08, 2023, 06:13:16 PM

Quote from: Brad on September 08, 2023, 06:03:24 PM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.

If ACKII actually uses a coherent combat system, then I am all for it.

Did you have issues with original edition ACKS combat?

crkrueger · September 08, 2023, 07:10:31 PM

Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 12:24:38 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 06, 2023, 11:09:42 AM
I think some of it is logic and emotion working together. Our groups did mix them. We did misread things. We do have fond memories of it all. There's enough distance, though, that looking at the rules closely reminds me of some of the things that chafed. However, when I look at it from a hard-eyed rules perspective, B/X is just closer to what we would want now then AD&D is. Back then, that wasn't necessarily true.

Another part is that back then, it wasn't always clear how to get from A to B. For example, we liked race and class separate more than we liked race as class. So naturally we used the AD&D classes. Now, I still prefer race and class separate, but were I to run it, I'd use all the things I've learned in the meantime to split race and class in the BECMI/RC rules, instead of just using AD&D.

One of the best campaigns I ever played in was AD&D with Palladium FRP classes tacked on, using Rolemaster for the combat system. No idea how the DM made it work, but he did. This whole differentiation between systems today in no way matches up to actual old school, which was basically a buffet of choices and DMs did whatever they wanted. The shift from actual referees who adjudicated games to some sort of robot who merely reads a book and applies rules has made this hobby lamer and lamer as years have gone by.

My current "Old School" RPG of choice is Mythras. I got my start with Moldvay, never was much interested in MI, just stuck with BEC, and shifted over to AD&D mixing in Arduin, Rolemaster, Gamma World. I never even saw a D&D campaign that wasn't a completely houseruled conglomeration of systems until the 90's.

The OSR is extremely fad-driven. Someone will be the next fad. If Shadowdark can come up with all the support OSE has, it could be a contender. If Kevin Crawford decides to go balls deep in Worlds Without Number support, he'd be the front runner I should think.

GamerforHire · September 08, 2023, 10:08:47 PM

Quote from: Scooter on September 08, 2023, 05:35:51 PM
Quote from: GamerforHire on September 08, 2023, 04:55:29 PM
To capture that spirit of "how we did it in the day" I have been thinking of taking S&W Whitebox or similar and combining it with the Arduin Trilogy to create the 1970's experience. I could use S&W Complete, or just Whitebox, but nothing else other than those two. Let the period mash-up begin!

If you want to capture the "70's experience" including kludgy mechanics just play one. Why reinvent?

Because that IS how we played in the early days—with a mashup of Arduin on top of AD&D and OD&D. My point is to go back and capture it more intentionally by using a single retroclone plus Arduin.

PulpHerb · September 09, 2023, 12:40:26 AM

Quote from: Brad on September 08, 2023, 06:03:24 PM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.

If ACKII actually uses a coherent combat system, then I am all for it.

Given ACKS is already my goto version of D&D I really wish he'd get it out already.

Murphy78 · September 09, 2023, 01:41:00 AM

Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 05:39:08 PM
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons by laying it out and tightly editing it in an impeccable manner.

I'd argue Rules Cyclopedia D&D is the definitive best expression of Dungeons & Dragons. Gavin Norman stubbornly refuses to incorporate any of BECMI/RC's additions into OSE or an OSE supplement for some strange reason.

I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.

Not know much about America, but for what I get Becmi doesn't seem to be really popular over there. In Italy, we do have the cult of Becmi, but that's because it's literally the first rpg we saw...Anyway, even here, few people played Companion and Master...and OSE seems to have occupied the osr niche to the tune of "Back to the Red Box".

I really liked Acks 1e for the idea of taking Companion to Bx...but is it popular? (Not a rhetorical question, it's just that I don't know anybody just knowing about it ).

Murphy78 · September 09, 2023, 01:46:04 AM

Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 06:11:10 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on September 08, 2023, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 05:39:08 PM
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons by laying it out and tightly editing it in an impeccable manner.

I'd argue Rules Cyclopedia D&D is the definitive best expression of Dungeons & Dragons. Gavin Norman stubbornly refuses to incorporate any of BECMI/RC's additions into OSE or an OSE supplement for some strange reason.

I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.

Gavin has been pretty forthright in noting that he doesn't like many of the rules tweaks of BECMI from B/X and that he thinks the game went into a bit of a power creep/bloat with the BECMI Rules sets that deviated from the B/X vision/promise. He also seems to think few groups play past level 10 anyhow, so why bother? Not my words, just trying to encapsulate things I've see him state in various places.

There's a strangely snobby attitude amongst some B/X diehards towards BECMI/RC that I've never understood. B/X was never intended to stop at level 14, and few groups played past level 10 because there wasn't anything interesting to do past level 10 before BECMI. War Machine, Fighter Combat Options, Domain management, and the Stronghold construction rules are all fantastic and purely additive to B/X. Weapon Mastery and skills are more controversial, but they're 100% optional. There's no logic to his argument. The BECMI Thief is underpowered, but so is the B/X Thief. The easy fix is using the AD&D 2e point buy system for Thief skills instead of the static progression.

I subscribe with every single word.

moonsweeper · September 09, 2023, 06:24:34 AM

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 09, 2023, 12:40:26 AM
Quote from: Brad on September 08, 2023, 06:03:24 PM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.

If ACKII actually uses a coherent combat system, then I am all for it.

Given ACKS is already my goto version of D&D I really wish he'd get it out already.

Alex is working on it.

I'm using ACKS II updates in my current campaign but PCs are only Adventurer tier so I haven't introduced any of the updated domain stuff yet.
My players seem to like it so far.

Timothe · September 09, 2023, 09:26:30 AM

Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?

Based on DTRPG sales, Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).

Best Seller but is anyone actually playing it? Same question with OSE.