Quote from: Brad on September 05, 2023, 11:31:28 AM

Quote from: shoplifter on September 04, 2023, 10:10:21 PM
It's mathematically identical, though.

You're never going to convince anyone using logic, they like what they like...

Not wrong about that

Thaco vs Attack Bonus is super easy to convert on the fly.
I play with guys that come from 5E, so we use ascending AC.
In my mind, I just remember descending AC from Becmi.
They tell me which armor they're wielding, so I convert on the fly.
Leather Armor: Ac 5, so it's 14 AAC.

A friend of mine: "You should teach them the one true
way of Thaco!" Honestly, why?

But for many people it's an aesthetic thing, they aren't giving up.

So, I feel that Ose should continue to cater to both systems.

As to whether Ose is truly popular and played...
I don't know about America, but in Italy it is.
Here you cannot buy a pdf without the physical
copy and Ose is very widespread. (As rpg that
aren't 5e get to be widespread, that is).

There's plenty of discord servers devoted to it.
For our market, it is surely the main Osr rpg.

Quote from: Murphy78 on September 05, 2023, 12:08:55 PM
As to whether, Ose is truly popular and played...
I don't know about America

Anecdotal, but interesting...a while back I went to Hobby Lobby to get a diploma framed and just so happened to be wearing the OSE shirt I got with the previous Kickstarter. The dude in the frame department directly asked me about it and said his local group had switched from 5th edition to OSE.

So if I had to guess, I'd say it is popular just because I never ever hear about people playing RPGs when I'm out and about, but some rando at a hobby store plays OSE.

Quote from: Brad on September 05, 2023, 11:31:28 AM
You're never going to convince anyone using logic, they like what they like...

I'm going to venture this corollary...

People like what they're conditioned to "like" because of inertia. Whether that inertia is due to laziness, exposure, etc. is besides the larger point I'm going to make.

My *hyperbolic* contention is the "OSR movement" are necromantic death-cultists who are very adept at their dark-arts. It's people regurgitating their own nostalgia bombs onto a plate and re-cooking it and serving it back up to the faithful.

The mantra that B/X is the "movement" to best capture TTRPG's in some form is ludicrous to me. The reality is that the GM's and Designers that market the OSR believe that because 1) they are incentivized to do so 2) they are reactionary 3) they are intensely biased for possibly the latter and the former 4) they genuinely have fun with the system. Likely *all* of the above in some form. The issue is the people that PLAY and do not GM become the loyal faithful to this 'movement' and therefore its system(s)- not its contents. And we *rarely* talk about the contents... we always talk about the minutia of the system elements.

This is what I'm really talking about as an observer that lived and gamed deeply through the original iterations of what would be the Rennaissance before it became "Olde Schoole" (I started with Holmes edition) - The conceits of "OSR" are still amorphous and ambiguous to me. Everytime someone tries to define it - I see others adding games like MSH into it by dint of age. Which is ludicrous to me.

There are definitely DNA that is shared by OSR games - I'll be damned if I can figure out why using those specific systems to do the same KIND of gaming (Hexcrawling, Dungeoncrawling, Sandboxing, lots of tables) can't be done with more streamlined and better designed systems without St. Gary being invoked or one of his OSR intercessor prophets jumps in to declare heresy.

It's not that I don't understand B/X in any of its flavors, I have the Rules Cyclopedia right here. I have the books (not the box) for Holmes and Moldvay. I own all the modules. I've run them to death - some are in tatters, and are beloved to me - so I *get* the nostalgia. What I don't get is the fetishization which is no different than the dickwanks that play modern 5e and its freakshow that has mutated D&D into its own brand of fantasy. There should be a TACIT understanding that I find the OSR 100% compatible and more cohesive than 5e D&D conceits. I'm purely speaking about the system-wankery that represents the OSR.

Toppling OSE with another flavor of an OSR B/X retroclone is like asking which type of artificial sweetener do you like in your coffee.

The IDEA of what OSR games DO should be central - not the system that does them. Coffee should be black btw. (but I'll forgive you for your milk-drinks. Sweetener? Stop being a monster.)

Never heard of this Crawford guy and barely know what that game is.  But what I do know is that in the past five years or so, I've seen various iterations of OSE in virtually every brick & mortar gaming store I've been in.  I've seen it played extensively at Cons.  Its kickstarters (including Dolmenwood) raise significantly more money every time.  The only other OSR/clone I can think of with a similar presence or foot print is DCC, which has more of a niche.  I've played both, especially OSE, a fair amount, but neither is my favorite version of THE game.  But trying to say "Worlds No one's heard of it" is a bigger game because it sold 100 pdfs on drivethru or whatever seems kind of ridiculous.  I've never seen that game in an actual store or met anyone who's ever played it.  And sorry DM Bluddworth, "Hyperborea" is nowhere close either, though I personally like that game a lot, with 2nd edition being the best.

Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Based on DTRPG sales, Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).

Apparently I "bought" 'Worlds without Number' according to DriveThru, but it was the free version.
Do they include free items in the sales data?

Quote from: Persimmon on September 05, 2023, 02:44:35 PM
But trying to say "Worlds No one's heard of it" is a bigger game because it sold 100 pdfs on drivethru or whatever seems kind of ridiculous.  I've never seen that game in an actual store or met anyone who's ever played it.

Same here - I don't know people that play WWN.

However, might be worth mentioning that it sold more than 5000 copies on DTRPG (DTRPG stops counting badges at 5000).

The current best seller on DTRPG, as I type this, is another book by the same author - Cities Without Number, which sold more than 500 in less than a week.

Kevin Crawford writes some pretty good games and his stuff is worth checking out.

But I agree OSE is bigger and I use OSE often for reference.

Quote from: DocJones on September 05, 2023, 03:13:15 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Based on DTRPG sales, Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).

Apparently I "bought" 'Worlds without Number' according to DriveThru, but it was the free version.
Do they include free items in the sales data?

No, they don't, only paid copies.

The "free version" of WWN has no bestseller badge, but obviously must be 10 times more popular than the other version.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/348809/Worlds-Without-Number-Free-Edition
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/348791/Worlds-Without-Number

Quote from: Mistwell on September 04, 2023, 12:43:36 PM
I saw mention of Dolmenwood in this thread so looked at the Kickstarter. While it looks interesting, they're not really saying a whole lot about it on the kickstarter. Has anyone looked further into it? Is it meaningfully different than B/X or the same just with some different classes and a different setting? Are they planning to support it with additional adventures and such of is this likely it for that game?

https://youtu.be/hL_YAarvB5U?si=N71ke6fvtoqZYdzj

Quote from: cavalier973 on September 05, 2023, 08:49:44 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on September 04, 2023, 12:43:36 PM
I saw mention of Dolmenwood in this thread so looked at the Kickstarter. While it looks interesting, they're not really saying a whole lot about it on the kickstarter. Has anyone looked further into it? Is it meaningfully different than B/X or the same just with some different classes and a different setting? Are they planning to support it with additional adventures and such of is this likely it for that game?

https://youtu.be/hL_YAarvB5U?si=N71ke6fvtoqZYdzj

Woah. Two vids totaling over 3 hours. OK, that might be good for some morning walks. Thanks!

Quote from: Mistwell on September 05, 2023, 10:38:34 PM

Quote from: cavalier973 on September 05, 2023, 08:49:44 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on September 04, 2023, 12:43:36 PM
I saw mention of Dolmenwood in this thread so looked at the Kickstarter. While it looks interesting, they're not really saying a whole lot about it on the kickstarter. Has anyone looked further into it? Is it meaningfully different than B/X or the same just with some different classes and a different setting? Are they planning to support it with additional adventures and such of is this likely it for that game?

https://youtu.be/hL_YAarvB5U?si=N71ke6fvtoqZYdzj

Woah. Two vids totaling over 3 hours. OK, that might be good for some morning walks. Thanks!

You're welcome. There are three videos; player's guide, monster book, and campaign guide. The same guy has a 22 episode campaign set in Dolmenwood; it's quite entertaining. (Currently, they are working through "The Halls of Arden Vul").

OSE has traction because good physical products are produced, and on a level way beyond just POD pdfs. Books, and actual boxed sets are available to purchase. Getting actual visibility on store shelves is a huge advantage. People like have cool actual stuff to buy that they can use at the game table. It is nice after staring at a screen all day for work to relax and crack open an actual book.

Quote from: tenbones on September 05, 2023, 01:09:17 PM
I'm going to venture this corollary...

You're correct here, but my point still stands: feelings are unassailable by logic. Also the whole "fetishization" of B/X is actually super amusing to me because I remember very vividly how we were called all sorts of names for playing Red Box instead of AD&D. So of course I moved to AD&D in 8th grade ASAP and we trashed the boxed sets immediately.

This whole obsession with B/X IS indeed rose colored glasses to some degree, as the number of AD&D players was astronomically higher when I was a kid. So again, you're right, but so am I: logic will not change their minds. A lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.

Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:55:03 AM

Quote from: tenbones on September 05, 2023, 01:09:17 PM
I'm going to venture this corollary...

You're correct here, but my point still stands: feelings are unassailable by logic. Also the whole "fetishization" of B/X is actually super amusing to me because I remember very vividly how we were called all sorts of names for playing Red Box instead of AD&D. So of course I moved to AD&D in 8th grade ASAP and we trashed the boxed sets immediately.

This whole obsession with B/X IS indeed rose colored glasses to some degree, as the number of AD&D players was astronomically higher when I was a kid. So again, you're right, but so am I: logic will not change their minds. A lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.

Agreed.  I worked in a game store that was mostly RPG business during this time period and AD&D was the huge gorilla with almost no one playing B/X except for kids.  Sales figures corresponded with that fact.  The players and DMs of that time thought AD&D was far superior rule set to B/X

Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:55:03 AMA lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.

My experience, and I've heard enough people express similar experiences that I don't think it's uncommon at all, is that most tables aren't quite playing rules-as-written, even if they think they are. Whenever you you get a new player from another group, there's always at least one thing that catches them up and they find is being done wrong, because that's not how they ever did it.

It's one of the reason I have very little use for "rules are inviolate" mentality like the mindset that some folks like Burning Wheel advocates have.