I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.

Quote from: Klytus on September 04, 2023, 02:06:29 PM
You're seriously missing a substantial portion of the numbers if you ignore Kickstarter for OSE and WWN, since both were initially funded via Kickstarter. WWN had one KS for the core book, then another for the Atlas of the Latter Earth. These earned a total of ~$365,000. OSE has had 3 total KS, one for the Basic boxed set, one for Advanced, and one for a reprint. These earned a total of ~$1,264,000. Of course, those numbers don't include add-ons, but it's still pretty clear who the winner is, by almost a factor of 4.

Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:57:46 PM
People can talk about a game as much as they like but are they making the financial commitment (buying it)?  The game-tourists who just talk about games but never actually buy and play them dominate forums like this. Storygamers are constantly yammering about storygames but when you look for those games on Mythweavers or Roll20 or even TBP ... nobody's playing those games. Which means nobody's buying them.

Well, we do know more games get bought than actually played. After all, Evil Hat is selling Fate based RPG's to someone...

Coyote and Crow, a 1mil kickstarter game. Nobody is playing it.

Avatar the Last Airbender RPG - The biggest KS of all time. Big money. Nobody will be playing this game 3 years from now...

And I'm sure other can think of more examples.

Crawford's WWW series is so compatible with other B/X based OSR Games; I'm just wondering how much of that might be driving sales by those who use his material for their home games, but don't play his RPG's proper.

This is all speculation naturally, but given how widely regarded his product is, I would have expected more word of mouth talk across the various interweb sites.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 04, 2023, 02:28:45 PM
I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.

I'm with you here.

But I have also accepted the following truth...

People like their D&D they way they like it, and don't want it to change. Ever.

Attack matrices and Thaco do get the job done. But all else being equal; Ascending AC is just generally more intuitive and easier for people to pick up.

I really don't get the pushback against going Ascending AC myself; but it is a thing.

Some of the SNP stuff.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 04, 2023, 02:28:45 PM
I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.

Originally it was called B/X Essentials, and it was literally B/X. OSE has sort of moved to like 99% B/X with a few changes that don't matter much, but I think if you go ascending AC that's enough of a difference that it's no longer B/X and something else. I am not opposed to ascending AC at all, but if you're going to use OSE as a restatement of B/X, that change is fairly significant. Both are already included, but eliminating regular AC will probably alienate a bunch of OSR people, honestly. Swords and Wizardry already does this but it's not actually D&D, sort of like a D&D-inspired clone.

I dunno, just seems like a bad idea to me.

Quote from: Jam The MF on September 04, 2023, 01:41:10 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?

Based on DTRPG sales, Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).

You have made a good point here.  I wonder what the total sales numbers year to date, via all sales channels; would show?

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a good way to know.

I suspect the DTRPG sales categories (Adamantium/Platinum/etc.) are based on current or recent sales. With any core book, there is a sales drop-off from when it was first released. OSE came out in 2018 while Worlds Without Number came out in 2022.

Also, even low sales in Amazon might be much bigger than top-tier DTRPG sales.

And, as others pointed out, sales are not the same thing as play -- noting that there have been some big-selling Kickstarters that might not translate into much actual play.

Number of convention games are one estimate, but popularity at conventions isn't necessarily the same as popularity in home play.

I'm not sure about the best estimate for actual play is.

Quote from: Jaeger on September 04, 2023, 03:22:22 PM

But I have also accepted the following truth...

People like their D&D they way they like it, and don't want it to change. Ever.

You hit the nail on the head.

This sums up most of the discussions I had (or read) about D&D for the past few decades.

It also explains some of the success of OSE, as B/X has a few things that deserved to be fixed - despite being my favorite form of D&D.

OSE, however, chose to keep the "best D&D" as written, without fixing any obvious flaws/imbalances.

Other than that, OSE is really good looking, and the rules are very good.

Quote from: Klytus on September 04, 2023, 02:06:29 PM
You're seriously missing a substantial portion of the numbers if you ignore Kickstarter for OSE and WWN, since both were initially funded via Kickstarter. WWN had one KS for the core book, then another for the Atlas of the Latter Earth. These earned a total of ~$365,000. OSE has had 3 total KS, one for the Basic boxed set, one for Advanced, and one for a reprint. These earned a total of ~$1,264,000. Of course, those numbers don't include add-ons, but it's still pretty clear who the winner is, by almost a factor of 4.

And Dolmenwood currently sits at $1.245 Million on Kickstarter.  And it's just an OSE variant.

Quote from: Brad on September 04, 2023, 05:04:18 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 04, 2023, 02:28:45 PM
I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.

Originally it was called B/X Essentials, and it was literally B/X. OSE has sort of moved to like 99% B/X with a few changes that don't matter much, but I think if you go ascending AC that's enough of a difference that it's no longer B/X and something else. I am not opposed to ascending AC at all, but if you're going to use OSE as a restatement of B/X, that change is fairly significant. Both are already included, but eliminating regular AC will probably alienate a bunch of OSR people, honestly. Swords and Wizardry already does this but it's not actually D&D, sort of like a D&D-inspired clone.

I dunno, just seems like a bad idea to me.

Swords & Wizardry doesn't eliminate descending AC.  As with OSE, descending is default and ascending AC is offered as an option.  This is still the case for the latest edition, just being delivered for KS backers.

Quote from: Brad on September 04, 2023, 05:04:18 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 04, 2023, 02:28:45 PM
I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.

Originally it was called B/X Essentials, and it was literally B/X. OSE has sort of moved to like 99% B/X with a few changes that don't matter much, but I think if you go ascending AC that's enough of a difference that it's no longer B/X and something else. I am not opposed to ascending AC at all, but if you're going to use OSE as a restatement of B/X, that change is fairly significant. Both are already included, but eliminating regular AC will probably alienate a bunch of OSR people, honestly. Swords and Wizardry already does this but it's not actually D&D, sort of like a D&D-inspired clone.

I dunno, just seems like a bad idea to me.

It's mathematically identical, though. I converted 2e to ascending AC, which is trivially simple, I'm absolutely still playing 2e even w/o THAC0. I get what you're trying to argue and could see some grogs argue the same, but I personally don't feel it matters and yes you'd still be playing B/X, IMO. If the math itself were different (something like converting 1e to ascending AC without correcting for the repeating 20s in the matrix) I'd be more inclined to agree.

I will start by admitting that I have only played OSE once, and I don't own the physical copies.  However, my measure I use to address your question is the following:

1.  Is the system known within the OSR / Indy sphere?
2.  Is the author and product well respected?
3.  Is the physical presentation of the game books of high quality (including art), formatted well and professional?
4.  Is the game system easy to pick up and play, and more importantly to run?
5.  Is the game system widely run at conventions, and tables are sold out (full capacity)? 

Based on the criteria I'd argue that Hyperborea (AS&SoH) authored by Jeffrey Talanian threatens OSE for top OSR spot, and IMHO surpasses it on many levels. 

It seems to me that the OSR is a nebulous cloud.  For example: if I use the classes, spells and combat rules from OSE Advanced, but I use the equipment tables from Labyrinth Lord AEC, and the adventures from Lamentations of the Flame Princess, while using Crawford's "-Without Number" books for the charts and tables...while spending money and buying all of the aforementioned products... Which game would I be playing? 

Likewise if my OSE books all got burned up in a fire and Hazards-of-the-bro lawfared the game out of existence, I'd still have Moldvay/Cook B/X.  So I'd say that OSE, as great as it is, is just a rewrite of someone else's work. While Crawford's is an original game. 

Quote from: Bluddworth on September 05, 2023, 10:46:50 AM


Based on the criteria I'd argue that Hyperborea (AS&SoH) authored by Jeffrey Talanian threatens OSE for top OSR spot, and IMHO surpasses it on many levels.

Naw, too setting specific.  That alone will limit its spread/growth

Shadowdark is doing a splendid job at bringing more folks over to the OSR way of gaming.  They are probably at $2M in sales in the first year, have already kicked off multiple Game Jams, and folks are selling/kickstarting multiple projects using the rulesets. 

Let's see where it goes in 3 years rivaling OSE for that top spot.

Quote from: Persimmon on September 04, 2023, 07:13:26 PM
Swords & Wizardry doesn't eliminate descending AC.  As with OSE, descending is default and ascending AC is offered as an option.  This is still the case for the latest edition, just being delivered for KS backers.

Yeah, that's what I meant; wasn't clear the way I wrote it...I blame the whisky.

Quote from: shoplifter on September 04, 2023, 10:10:21 PM
It's mathematically identical, though.

You're never going to convince anyone using logic, they like what they like...

Quote from: shoplifter on September 04, 2023, 10:10:21 PM

Quote from: Brad on September 04, 2023, 05:04:18 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 04, 2023, 02:28:45 PM
I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.

Originally it was called B/X Essentials, and it was literally B/X. OSE has sort of moved to like 99% B/X with a few changes that don't matter much, but I think if you go ascending AC that's enough of a difference that it's no longer B/X and something else. I am not opposed to ascending AC at all, but if you're going to use OSE as a restatement of B/X, that change is fairly significant. Both are already included, but eliminating regular AC will probably alienate a bunch of OSR people, honestly. Swords and Wizardry already does this but it's not actually D&D, sort of like a D&D-inspired clone.

I dunno, just seems like a bad idea to me.

It's mathematically identical, though.

But which one is more intuitive/easy to grok for noobs?

Besides people liking what they like if you want to expand your market you do need to think about that.

For instance Shadowdark is easier to grasp for someone who has never played anything but 5e, which should give it and it's author a leg up in capturing market.