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Is there any OSR RPG, that threatens to topple OSE from the number 1 spot?

Started by Jam The MF, September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM

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Scooter

#15
September 03, 2023, 12:22:43 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:13:58 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.

Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.

de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility.  The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics.  It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP.  Which is almost nothing

Ok. De-OGLizing has been postponed after the release of Dolmenwood. It has circulated that OSE could be updated in the near future (after-Dolmenwood release), some change  could hurt backward compatibility.
For example, Thaco COULD be dropped.

It may seems like a minor change, but a lot of people wants something that could be used as it is with old modules. OSE dog-like loyalty to BX is its strenght, not a liability.

The formula for THAC0 isn't IP. therefore irrelevant as a license isn't needed to use it..
There is no saving throw vs. stupidity

Murphy78

#16
September 03, 2023, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 12:22:43 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:13:58 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.

Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.

de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility.  The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics.  It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP.  Which is almost nothing

Ok. De-OGLizing has been postponed after the release of Dolmenwood. It has circulated that OSE could be updated in the near future (after-Dolmenwood release), some change  could hurt backward compatibility.
For example, Thaco COULD be dropped.

It may seems like a minor change, but a lot of people wants something that could be used as it is with old modules. OSE dog-like loyalty to BX is its strenght, not a liability.

The formula for THAC0 isn't IP. therefore irrelevant as a license isn't needed to use it..

Ok, but it has circulated that could be one of the changes.

Scooter

#17
September 03, 2023, 02:50:15 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 12:22:43 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:13:58 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.

Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.

de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility.  The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics.  It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP.  Which is almost nothing

Ok. De-OGLizing has been postponed after the release of Dolmenwood. It has circulated that OSE could be updated in the near future (after-Dolmenwood release), some change  could hurt backward compatibility.
For example, Thaco COULD be dropped.

It may seems like a minor change, but a lot of people wants something that could be used as it is with old modules. OSE dog-like loyalty to BX is its strenght, not a liability.

The formula for THAC0 isn't IP. therefore irrelevant as a license isn't needed to use it..

Ok, but it has circulated that could be one of the changes.

That has nothing to do with the OGL so what is your point?
There is no saving throw vs. stupidity

Jaeger

#18
September 03, 2023, 04:17:59 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 02, 2023, 11:19:43 PM
OSE Advanced is how a LOT of people played AD&D back in the day. Using the cool extra spells, classes, and magic items and hanging them on a lighter rules chassis like B/X. It was kind of the best of both worlds. More character options without weapon vs AC, the unarmed combat system from hell, segments, etc. Everything that B/X had was simply made more complicated in AD&D. IMHO that complication didn't add anything really needed to the game. There were some great things and wonderful flavor that AD&D provided such as the potion miscibility table, all the dungeon dressing and so forth that there just wasn't room for in the B/X page count. OSE Advanced is one example of that type of mashup.

Poses an interesting question.

If something like OSE Advanced with Ascending AC (They tossed the idea of going ascending around at the time), was what was delivered as 2e AD&D one wonders what impact that would have had on future editions in terms of game design...


Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?

Based on DTRPG sales, Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).

While the sales are there - WWW doesn't see anywhere near the verbal traffic that you see otherwise floating around OSE and a few other OSR games.

How many are playing his games in a dedicated fashion, or as they are basically B/X compatible, how many are buying them to port things they like into other OSR games?

Or maybe his playerbase is just really quite or only on some discord server or whatever.

It is an interesting phenomenon either way.
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

The select quote function is your friend: Right-Click and Highlight the text you want to quote. The - Quote Selected Text - button appears. You're welcome.

Theory of Games

#19
September 03, 2023, 07:57:46 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on September 03, 2023, 04:17:59 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 02, 2023, 11:19:43 PM
OSE Advanced is how a LOT of people played AD&D back in the day. Using the cool extra spells, classes, and magic items and hanging them on a lighter rules chassis like B/X. It was kind of the best of both worlds. More character options without weapon vs AC, the unarmed combat system from hell, segments, etc. Everything that B/X had was simply made more complicated in AD&D. IMHO that complication didn't add anything really needed to the game. There were some great things and wonderful flavor that AD&D provided such as the potion miscibility table, all the dungeon dressing and so forth that there just wasn't room for in the B/X page count. OSE Advanced is one example of that type of mashup.

Poses an interesting question.

If something like OSE Advanced with Ascending AC (They tossed the idea of going ascending around at the time), was what was delivered as 2e AD&D one wonders what impact that would have had on future editions in terms of game design...


Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?

Based on DTRPG sales, Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).

While the sales are there - WWW doesn't see anywhere near the verbal traffic that you see otherwise floating around OSE and a few other OSR games.

How many are playing his games in a dedicated fashion, or as they are basically B/X compatible, how many are buying them to port things they like into other OSR games?

Or maybe his playerbase is just really quite or only on some discord server or whatever.

It is an interesting phenomenon either way.
People can talk about a game as much as they like but are they making the financial commitment (buying it)?  The game-tourists who just talk about games but never actually buy and play them dominate forums like this. Storygamers are constantly yammering about storygames but when you look for those games on Mythweavers or Roll20 or even TBP ... nobody's playing those games. Which means nobody's buying them.

TTRPGs are just games. Friends are forever.

Murphy78

#20
September 03, 2023, 11:45:04 PM Last Edit: September 03, 2023, 11:51:26 PM by Murphy78
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 02:50:15 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 12:22:43 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:13:58 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.

Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.

de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility.  The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics.  It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP.  Which is almost nothing

Ok. De-OGLizing has been postponed after the release of Dolmenwood. It has circulated that OSE could be updated in the near future (after-Dolmenwood release), some change  could hurt backward compatibility.
For example, Thaco COULD be dropped.

It may seems like a minor change, but a lot of people wants something that could be used as it is with old modules. OSE dog-like loyalty to BX is its strenght, not a liability.

The formula for THAC0 isn't IP. therefore irrelevant as a license isn't needed to use it..

Ok, but it has circulated that could be one of the changes.

That has nothing to do with the OGL so what is your point?

Last time: My point is about compatibility, not the OGL.

First, Norman posted that is rewriting OSE at some point to de-OGLize it.

Second, he suggested that, at that very point, he could update some mechanics to cater to modern taste.
Example given were removing race-as-class and descending AC/Thaco ecc (race and class separated, ascending AC are already variants permitted in OSE, he's talking about removing possibilities).

I know as a fact that there are people that wants this options, so I don't see the value in removing it.

The selling point of OSE worldwide is BX-only-explained-better...if the dog-loyal compatibility is dropped it loses its main feature, it becomes a "more-or-less-BX" among many others retroclones.

Rhymer88

#21
September 04, 2023, 07:16:06 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?

Based on DTRPG sales, Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).

But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.

Bruwulf

#22
September 04, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on September 04, 2023, 07:16:06 AM
But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.

Realistically, no matter how many alternatives there are, right now DTRPG holds the market share by a large margin. It is as close to an "Amazon of rpg pdfs" as we have. With both the good and the bad that statement implies.

Scooter

#23
September 04, 2023, 10:02:20 AM
Quote from: Bruwulf on September 04, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on September 04, 2023, 07:16:06 AM
But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.

Realistically, no matter how many alternatives there are, right now DTRPG holds the market share by a large margin. It is as close to an "Amazon of rpg pdfs" as we have. With both the good and the bad that statement implies.


Yes, right now it is an accurate indicator of what is moving through the channel.
There is no saving throw vs. stupidity

Murphy78

#24
September 04, 2023, 12:13:00 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on September 04, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on September 04, 2023, 07:16:06 AM
But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.

Realistically, no matter how many alternatives there are, right now DTRPG holds the market share by a large margin. It is as close to an "Amazon of rpg pdfs" as we have. With both the good and the bad that statement implies.

I don't  know the numbers, so I cannot compare. But
many people prefer printed copies of Ose and on Drivethroughrpg
are not available.

Mistwell

#25
September 04, 2023, 12:43:36 PM
I saw mention of Dolmenwood in this thread so looked at the Kickstarter. While it looks interesting, they're not really saying a whole lot about it on the kickstarter. Has anyone looked further into it? Is it meaningfully different than B/X or the same just with some different classes and a different setting? Are they planning to support it with additional adventures and such of is this likely it for that game?

Jam The MF

#26
September 04, 2023, 01:37:42 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 04, 2023, 12:13:00 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on September 04, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on September 04, 2023, 07:16:06 AM
But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.

Realistically, no matter how many alternatives there are, right now DTRPG holds the market share by a large margin. It is as close to an "Amazon of rpg pdfs" as we have. With both the good and the bad that statement implies.

I don't  know the numbers, so I cannot compare. But
many people prefer printed copies of Ose and on Drivethroughrpg
are not available.

I most certainly prefer printed hardcovers, myself; and I purchased my copy of OSE Classic Fantasy, via Amazon.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Jam The MF

#27
September 04, 2023, 01:41:10 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?

Based on DTRPG sales, Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).

You have made a good point here.  I wonder what the total sales numbers year to date, via all sales channels; would show?
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Tod13

#28
September 04, 2023, 01:43:21 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 04, 2023, 12:13:00 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on September 04, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on September 04, 2023, 07:16:06 AM
But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.

Realistically, no matter how many alternatives there are, right now DTRPG holds the market share by a large margin. It is as close to an "Amazon of rpg pdfs" as we have. With both the good and the bad that statement implies.

I don't  know the numbers, so I cannot compare. But
many people prefer printed copies of Ose and on Drivethroughrpg
are not available.
It's funny. I went digital with novels and RPG books as soon as I could, so it takes a lot of effort for me to remember a lot of people like paper. Larry Corriea has said half his sales are from paper in bookstores. But then there are indies, that make as much or more than him, that have well over half being digital sales. Watching Kickstarters, it seems like cover variants and deluxe hardcovers are crazy popular. So much depends on how you market and your audience. Similar to how some authors have the experience that Kindle-only is the only sensible thing and others that Kindle-only kills most of their sales.

Klytus

#29
September 04, 2023, 02:06:29 PM
You're seriously missing a substantial portion of the numbers if you ignore Kickstarter for OSE and WWN, since both were initially funded via Kickstarter. WWN had one KS for the core book, then another for the Atlas of the Latter Earth. These earned a total of ~$365,000. OSE has had 3 total KS, one for the Basic boxed set, one for Advanced, and one for a reprint. These earned a total of ~$1,264,000. Of course, those numbers don't include add-ons, but it's still pretty clear who the winner is, by almost a factor of 4.
Klytus, I'm bored. What plaything can you offer me today?

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