OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.

Probably not.  There are only so many ways to regurgitate the old mechanics of Basic D&D or AD&D.  I prefer modern mechanics though.

What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons by laying it out and tightly editing it in an impeccable manner. I don't see anyone else polishing an OSR RPG to that level. He truly refined that gold to 99.99% purity.

It is really an impressive accomplishment.

I'd sure love to be able to do that with my own OSR RPG's, but I'm not that anal retentive.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 05:39:08 PM
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons

Naw, D&D got better when Gary took another crack at it with modern mechanics.

I don't think so.   While I am new to the OSR so far OSE is my favorite osr game currently.   Running it now and my group loves it.

Quote from: GhostNinja on September 02, 2023, 07:27:30 PM
I don't think so.   While I am new to the OSR so far OSE is my favorite osr game currently.   Running it now and my group loves it.

I'm talking about D&D in toto not just OSR

Quote from: Scooter on September 02, 2023, 05:51:08 PM
Naw, D&D got better when Gary took another crack at it with modern mechanics.

Quote from: Scooter on September 02, 2023, 05:51:08 PM
Naw, D&D got better when Gary took another crack at it with modern mechanics.

Prove it. Other than clearly delineating Race and Class, AD&D was in no way mechanically an improvement on Basic.

He did add a lot of fantastic content: spells, magic items, monsters. But mechanically, AD&D is a step backward.

Look at OSE Advanced. It is a much better expression of AD&D than Gary's AD&D is. Don't get me wrong, I'm a raging fanboy of AD&D, but I recognize its flaws.

If I was to have one criticism of OSE is that it can be dry as a cracker. Flavor is sacrificed for clarity. Which I think ultimately is a good thing. Flavor can go into campaign settings.

I doubt it.

As a latecomer to the OSR, there are four games I regard as having had a significant degree of mainstream (within the already niche world of RPGs) success: Old School Essentials, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Dungeon Crawl Classics, and Castles & Crusades.

Of the four, DCC looked like it was breaking through at one point, but it seems to have tapered off. I think it's just too weird, with all the zany dice and random tables, to ever really take over. Castles and Crusades would be my pick for an OSE-killer, but for some reason (possibly because a lot of people dislike the SIEGE engine) it's never caught on. Lamentations is too controversial, and let's be honest: James Raggi has no interest in being a game designer. 

Behind those, there's a pretty wide swath of what I'd call "2nd tier" OSR games: stuff like Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea, Machinations of the Space Princess, Lion and Dragon or Worlds/Stars Without Number. For my money, that's where you find the more interesting games, because they're taking the skeleton of Basic D&D and building new games on it, rather than restating the same game a little bit differently. Those will never take over, though, because that's not what most people want from the OSR.

Shadowdark looked like it might have broken big, just for having that "OSR for the 5e crowd" cachet, but it seems to have been a flash in the pan.

P.S. I know OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord were important in their time, but nobody I see seems to play them anymore.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 07:35:28 PM

Look at OSE Advanced. It is a much better expression of AD&D than Gary's AD&D is. Don't get me wrong, I'm a raging fanboy of AD&D, but I recognize its flaws.

OSE Advanced is how a LOT of people played AD&D back in the day. Using the cool extra spells, classes, and magic items and hanging them on a lighter rules chassis like B/X. It was kind of the best of both worlds. More character options without weapon vs AC, the unarmed combat system from hell, segments, etc. Everything that B/X had was simply made more complicated in AD&D. IMHO that complication didn't add anything really needed to the game. There were some great things and wonderful flavor that AD&D provided such as the potion miscibility table, all the dungeon dressing and so forth that there just wasn't room for in the B/X page count. OSE Advanced is one example of that type of mashup.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 02, 2023, 11:19:43 PM

Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 07:35:28 PM

Look at OSE Advanced. It is a much better expression of AD&D than Gary's AD&D is. Don't get me wrong, I'm a raging fanboy of AD&D, but I recognize its flaws.

OSE Advanced is how a LOT of people played AD&D back in the day. Using the cool extra spells, classes, and magic items and hanging them on a lighter rules chassis like B/X. It was kind of the best of both worlds. More character options without weapon vs AC, the unarmed combat system from hell, segments, etc. Everything that B/X had was simply made more complicated in AD&D. IMHO that complication didn't add anything really needed to the game. There were some great things and wonderful flavor that AD&D provided such as the potion miscibility table, all the dungeon dressing and so forth that there just wasn't room for in the B/X page count. OSE Advanced is one example of that type of mashup.

That's my take as well. We played it that way also. More complicated does not equal better, and usually it means worse. Simplicity done right is very hard to achieve.

Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.

What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?

Based on DTRPG sales, Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).

Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.

Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.

Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.

Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.

de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility.  The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics.  It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP.  Which is almost nothing

Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 11:11:00 AM

Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.

Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.

de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility.  The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics.  It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP.  Which is almost nothing

Ok. De-OGLizing has been postponed after the release of Dolmenwood. It has circulated that OSE could be updated in the near future (after-Dolmenwood release), some change  could hurt backward compatibility.
For example, Thaco COULD be dropped.

It may seems like a minor change, but a lot of people wants something that could be used as it is with old modules. OSE dog-like loyalty to BX is its strenght, not a liability.