OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
Probably not. There are only so many ways to regurgitate the old mechanics of Basic D&D or AD&D. I prefer modern mechanics though.
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons by laying it out and tightly editing it in an impeccable manner. I don't see anyone else polishing an OSR RPG to that level. He truly refined that gold to 99.99% purity.
It is really an impressive accomplishment.
I'd sure love to be able to do that with my own OSR RPG's, but I'm not that anal retentive.
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 05:39:08 PM
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons
Naw, D&D got better when Gary took another crack at it with modern mechanics.
I don't think so. While I am new to the OSR so far OSE is my favorite osr game currently. Running it now and my group loves it.
Quote from: GhostNinja on September 02, 2023, 07:27:30 PM
I don't think so. While I am new to the OSR so far OSE is my favorite osr game currently. Running it now and my group loves it.
??? I'm talking about D&D in toto not just OSR
Quote from: Scooter on September 02, 2023, 05:51:08 PM
Naw, D&D got better when Gary took another crack at it with modern mechanics.
Quote from: Scooter on September 02, 2023, 05:51:08 PM
Naw, D&D got better when Gary took another crack at it with modern mechanics.
Prove it. Other than clearly delineating Race and Class, AD&D was in no way mechanically an improvement on Basic.
He did add a lot of fantastic content: spells, magic items, monsters. But mechanically, AD&D is a step backward.
Look at OSE Advanced. It is a much better expression of AD&D than Gary's AD&D is. Don't get me wrong, I'm a raging fanboy of AD&D, but I recognize its flaws.
If I was to have one criticism of OSE is that it can be dry as a cracker. Flavor is sacrificed for clarity. Which I think ultimately is a good thing. Flavor can go into campaign settings.
I doubt it.
As a latecomer to the OSR, there are four games I regard as having had a significant degree of mainstream (within the already niche world of RPGs) success: Old School Essentials, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Dungeon Crawl Classics, and Castles & Crusades.
Of the four, DCC looked like it was breaking through at one point, but it seems to have tapered off. I think it's just too weird, with all the zany dice and random tables, to ever really take over. Castles and Crusades would be my pick for an OSE-killer, but for some reason (possibly because a lot of people dislike the SIEGE engine) it's never caught on. Lamentations is too controversial, and let's be honest: James Raggi has no interest in being a game designer.
Behind those, there's a pretty wide swath of what I'd call "2nd tier" OSR games: stuff like Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea, Machinations of the Space Princess, Lion and Dragon or Worlds/Stars Without Number. For my money, that's where you find the more interesting games, because they're taking the skeleton of Basic D&D and building new games on it, rather than restating the same game a little bit differently. Those will never take over, though, because that's not what most people want from the OSR.
Shadowdark looked like it might have broken big, just for having that "OSR for the 5e crowd" cachet, but it seems to have been a flash in the pan.
P.S. I know OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord were important in their time, but nobody I see seems to play them anymore.
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 07:35:28 PM
Look at OSE Advanced. It is a much better expression of AD&D than Gary's AD&D is. Don't get me wrong, I'm a raging fanboy of AD&D, but I recognize its flaws.
OSE Advanced is how a LOT of people played AD&D back in the day. Using the cool extra spells, classes, and magic items and hanging them on a lighter rules chassis like B/X. It was kind of the best of both worlds. More character options without weapon vs AC, the unarmed combat system from hell, segments, etc. Everything that B/X had was simply made more complicated in AD&D. IMHO that complication didn't add anything really needed to the game. There were some great things and wonderful flavor that AD&D provided such as the potion miscibility table, all the dungeon dressing and so forth that there just wasn't room for in the B/X page count. OSE Advanced is one example of that type of mashup.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 02, 2023, 11:19:43 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 07:35:28 PM
Look at OSE Advanced. It is a much better expression of AD&D than Gary's AD&D is. Don't get me wrong, I'm a raging fanboy of AD&D, but I recognize its flaws.
OSE Advanced is how a LOT of people played AD&D back in the day. Using the cool extra spells, classes, and magic items and hanging them on a lighter rules chassis like B/X. It was kind of the best of both worlds. More character options without weapon vs AC, the unarmed combat system from hell, segments, etc. Everything that B/X had was simply made more complicated in AD&D. IMHO that complication didn't add anything really needed to the game. There were some great things and wonderful flavor that AD&D provided such as the potion miscibility table, all the dungeon dressing and so forth that there just wasn't room for in the B/X page count. OSE Advanced is one example of that type of mashup.
That's my take as well. We played it that way also. More complicated does not equal better, and usually it means worse. Simplicity done right is very hard to achieve.
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?
Based on DTRPG sales (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php#adamantine?affiliate_id=848965), Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.
de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility. The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics. It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP. Which is almost nothing
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.
de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility. The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics. It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP. Which is almost nothing
Ok. De-OGLizing has been postponed after the release of Dolmenwood. It has circulated that OSE could be updated in the near future (after-Dolmenwood release), some change could hurt backward compatibility.
For example, Thaco COULD be dropped.
It may seems like a minor change, but a lot of people wants something that could be used as it is with old modules. OSE dog-like loyalty to BX is its strenght, not a liability.
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:13:58 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.
de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility. The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics. It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP. Which is almost nothing
Ok. De-OGLizing has been postponed after the release of Dolmenwood. It has circulated that OSE could be updated in the near future (after-Dolmenwood release), some change could hurt backward compatibility.
For example, Thaco COULD be dropped.
It may seems like a minor change, but a lot of people wants something that could be used as it is with old modules. OSE dog-like loyalty to BX is its strenght, not a liability.
The formula for THAC0 isn't IP. therefore irrelevant as a license isn't needed to use it..
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 12:22:43 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:13:58 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.
de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility. The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics. It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP. Which is almost nothing
Ok. De-OGLizing has been postponed after the release of Dolmenwood. It has circulated that OSE could be updated in the near future (after-Dolmenwood release), some change could hurt backward compatibility.
For example, Thaco COULD be dropped.
It may seems like a minor change, but a lot of people wants something that could be used as it is with old modules. OSE dog-like loyalty to BX is its strenght, not a liability.
The formula for THAC0 isn't IP. therefore irrelevant as a license isn't needed to use it..
Ok, but it has circulated that could be one of the changes.
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 12:22:43 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:13:58 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.
de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility. The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics. It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP. Which is almost nothing
Ok. De-OGLizing has been postponed after the release of Dolmenwood. It has circulated that OSE could be updated in the near future (after-Dolmenwood release), some change could hurt backward compatibility.
For example, Thaco COULD be dropped.
It may seems like a minor change, but a lot of people wants something that could be used as it is with old modules. OSE dog-like loyalty to BX is its strenght, not a liability.
The formula for THAC0 isn't IP. therefore irrelevant as a license isn't needed to use it..
Ok, but it has circulated that could be one of the changes.
That has nothing to do with the OGL so what is your point?
Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 02, 2023, 11:19:43 PM
OSE Advanced is how a LOT of people played AD&D back in the day. Using the cool extra spells, classes, and magic items and hanging them on a lighter rules chassis like B/X. It was kind of the best of both worlds. More character options without weapon vs AC, the unarmed combat system from hell, segments, etc. Everything that B/X had was simply made more complicated in AD&D. IMHO that complication didn't add anything really needed to the game. There were some great things and wonderful flavor that AD&D provided such as the potion miscibility table, all the dungeon dressing and so forth that there just wasn't room for in the B/X page count. OSE Advanced is one example of that type of mashup.
Poses an interesting question.
If something like OSE Advanced with Ascending AC
(They tossed the idea of going ascending around at the time), was what was delivered as 2e AD&D one wonders what impact that would have had on future editions in terms of game design...
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?
Based on DTRPG sales (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php#adamantine?affiliate_id=848965), Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).
While the sales are there - WWW doesn't see anywhere near the verbal traffic that you see otherwise floating around OSE and a few other OSR games.
How many are playing his games in a dedicated fashion, or as they are basically B/X compatible, how many are buying them to port things they like into other OSR games?
Or maybe his playerbase is just really quite or only on some discord server or whatever.
It is an interesting phenomenon either way.
Quote from: Jaeger on September 03, 2023, 04:17:59 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 02, 2023, 11:19:43 PM
OSE Advanced is how a LOT of people played AD&D back in the day. Using the cool extra spells, classes, and magic items and hanging them on a lighter rules chassis like B/X. It was kind of the best of both worlds. More character options without weapon vs AC, the unarmed combat system from hell, segments, etc. Everything that B/X had was simply made more complicated in AD&D. IMHO that complication didn't add anything really needed to the game. There were some great things and wonderful flavor that AD&D provided such as the potion miscibility table, all the dungeon dressing and so forth that there just wasn't room for in the B/X page count. OSE Advanced is one example of that type of mashup.
Poses an interesting question.
If something like OSE Advanced with Ascending AC (They tossed the idea of going ascending around at the time), was what was delivered as 2e AD&D one wonders what impact that would have had on future editions in terms of game design...
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?
Based on DTRPG sales (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php#adamantine?affiliate_id=848965), Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).
While the sales are there - WWW doesn't see anywhere near the verbal traffic that you see otherwise floating around OSE and a few other OSR games.
How many are playing his games in a dedicated fashion, or as they are basically B/X compatible, how many are buying them to port things they like into other OSR games?
Or maybe his playerbase is just really quite or only on some discord server or whatever.
It is an interesting phenomenon either way.
People can talk about a game as much as they like but are they making the financial commitment (buying it)? The game-tourists who just talk about games but never actually buy and play them dominate forums like this. Storygamers are constantly yammering about storygames but when you look for those games on Mythweavers or Roll20 or even TBP ...
nobody's playing those games. Which means nobody's buying them.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/26ufhmF1KaqUYVbuo/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 02:50:15 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 12:22:43 PM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 12:13:58 PM
Quote from: Scooter on September 03, 2023, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 03, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
Ose worst enemy could be Gavin's wish to modernize it (maybe to de-OGLize it). If it loses its TOTAL backward compatibility to BX, like forcing ascending AC as it has been suggested, it could make OSE less interesting.
de-OGLize and it does NOTHING to hurt backwards compatibility. The OGL license is NOT needed for ANY game mechanics. It is only required for using proper noun stuff that is IP. Which is almost nothing
Ok. De-OGLizing has been postponed after the release of Dolmenwood. It has circulated that OSE could be updated in the near future (after-Dolmenwood release), some change could hurt backward compatibility.
For example, Thaco COULD be dropped.
It may seems like a minor change, but a lot of people wants something that could be used as it is with old modules. OSE dog-like loyalty to BX is its strenght, not a liability.
The formula for THAC0 isn't IP. therefore irrelevant as a license isn't needed to use it..
Ok, but it has circulated that could be one of the changes.
That has nothing to do with the OGL so what is your point?
Last time: My point is about compatibility, not the OGL.
First, Norman posted that is rewriting OSE at some point to de-OGLize it.
Second, he suggested that, at that very point, he could update some mechanics to cater to modern taste.
Example given were removing race-as-class and descending AC/Thaco ecc (race and class separated, ascending AC are already variants permitted in OSE, he's talking about removing possibilities).
I know as a fact that there are people that wants this options, so I don't see the value in removing it.
The selling point of OSE worldwide is BX-only-explained-better...if the dog-loyal compatibility is dropped it loses its main feature, it becomes a "more-or-less-BX" among many others retroclones.
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?
Based on DTRPG sales (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php#adamantine?affiliate_id=848965), Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).
But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on September 04, 2023, 07:16:06 AM
But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.
Realistically, no matter how many alternatives there are, right now DTRPG holds the market share by a large margin. It is as close to an "Amazon of rpg pdfs" as we have. With both the good and the bad that statement implies.
Quote from: Bruwulf on September 04, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on September 04, 2023, 07:16:06 AM
But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.
Realistically, no matter how many alternatives there are, right now DTRPG holds the market share by a large margin. It is as close to an "Amazon of rpg pdfs" as we have. With both the good and the bad that statement implies.
Yes, right now it is an accurate indicator of what is moving through the channel.
Quote from: Bruwulf on September 04, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on September 04, 2023, 07:16:06 AM
But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.
Realistically, no matter how many alternatives there are, right now DTRPG holds the market share by a large margin. It is as close to an "Amazon of rpg pdfs" as we have. With both the good and the bad that statement implies.
I don't know the numbers, so I cannot compare. But
many people prefer printed copies of Ose and on Drivethroughrpg
are not available.
I saw mention of Dolmenwood in this thread so looked at the Kickstarter. While it looks interesting, they're not really saying a whole lot about it on the kickstarter. Has anyone looked further into it? Is it meaningfully different than B/X or the same just with some different classes and a different setting? Are they planning to support it with additional adventures and such of is this likely it for that game?
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 04, 2023, 12:13:00 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on September 04, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on September 04, 2023, 07:16:06 AM
But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.
Realistically, no matter how many alternatives there are, right now DTRPG holds the market share by a large margin. It is as close to an "Amazon of rpg pdfs" as we have. With both the good and the bad that statement implies.
I don't know the numbers, so I cannot compare. But
many people prefer printed copies of Ose and on Drivethroughrpg
are not available.
I most certainly prefer printed hardcovers, myself; and I purchased my copy of OSE Classic Fantasy, via Amazon.
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?
Based on DTRPG sales (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php#adamantine?affiliate_id=848965), Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).
You have made a good point here. I wonder what the total sales numbers year to date, via all sales channels; would show?
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 04, 2023, 12:13:00 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on September 04, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on September 04, 2023, 07:16:06 AM
But how many people buy OSE from drivethrurpg? I certainly didn't because it is available from many other rpg game distributors.
Realistically, no matter how many alternatives there are, right now DTRPG holds the market share by a large margin. It is as close to an "Amazon of rpg pdfs" as we have. With both the good and the bad that statement implies.
I don't know the numbers, so I cannot compare. But
many people prefer printed copies of Ose and on Drivethroughrpg
are not available.
It's funny. I went digital with novels and RPG books as soon as I could, so it takes a lot of effort for me to remember a lot of people like paper. Larry Corriea has said half his sales are from paper in bookstores. But then there are indies, that make as much or more than him, that have well over half being digital sales. Watching Kickstarters, it seems like cover variants and deluxe hardcovers are crazy popular. So much depends on how you market and your audience. Similar to how some authors have the experience that Kindle-only is the only sensible thing and others that Kindle-only kills most of their sales.
You're seriously missing a substantial portion of the numbers if you ignore Kickstarter for OSE and WWN, since both were initially funded via Kickstarter. WWN had one KS for the core book, then another for the Atlas of the Latter Earth. These earned a total of ~$365,000. OSE has had 3 total KS, one for the Basic boxed set, one for Advanced, and one for a reprint. These earned a total of ~$1,264,000. Of course, those numbers don't include add-ons, but it's still pretty clear who the winner is, by almost a factor of 4.
I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.
Quote from: Klytus on September 04, 2023, 02:06:29 PM
You're seriously missing a substantial portion of the numbers if you ignore Kickstarter for OSE and WWN, since both were initially funded via Kickstarter. WWN had one KS for the core book, then another for the Atlas of the Latter Earth. These earned a total of ~$365,000. OSE has had 3 total KS, one for the Basic boxed set, one for Advanced, and one for a reprint. These earned a total of ~$1,264,000. Of course, those numbers don't include add-ons, but it's still pretty clear who the winner is, by almost a factor of 4.
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:57:46 PM
People can talk about a game as much as they like but are they making the financial commitment (buying it)? The game-tourists who just talk about games but never actually buy and play them dominate forums like this. Storygamers are constantly yammering about storygames but when you look for those games on Mythweavers or Roll20 or even TBP ... nobody's playing those games. Which means nobody's buying them.
Well, we do know more games get bought than actually played. After all, Evil Hat is selling Fate based RPG's to someone...
Coyote and Crow, a 1mil kickstarter game. Nobody is playing it.
Avatar the Last Airbender RPG - The biggest KS of all time. Big money. Nobody will be playing this game 3 years from now...
And I'm sure other can think of more examples.
Crawford's WWW series is so compatible with other B/X based OSR Games; I'm just wondering how much of that might be driving sales by those who use his material for their home games, but don't play his RPG's proper.
This is all speculation naturally, but given how widely regarded his product is, I would have expected more word of mouth talk across the various interweb sites.
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 04, 2023, 02:28:45 PM
I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.
I'm with you here.
But I have also accepted the following truth...
People like their D&D they way they like it, and don't want it to change. Ever.
Attack matrices and Thaco do get the job done. But all else being equal; Ascending AC is just generally more intuitive and easier for people to pick up.
I really don't get the pushback against going Ascending AC myself; but it is a thing.
Some of the SNP stuff.
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 04, 2023, 02:28:45 PM
I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.
Originally it was called B/X Essentials, and it was literally B/X. OSE has sort of moved to like 99% B/X with a few changes that don't matter much, but I think if you go ascending AC that's enough of a difference that it's no longer B/X and something else. I am not opposed to ascending AC at all, but if you're going to use OSE as a restatement of B/X, that change is fairly significant. Both are already included, but eliminating regular AC will probably alienate a bunch of OSR people, honestly. Swords and Wizardry already does this but it's not actually D&D, sort of like a D&D-inspired clone.
I dunno, just seems like a bad idea to me.
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 04, 2023, 01:41:10 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?
Based on DTRPG sales (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php#adamantine?affiliate_id=848965), Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).
You have made a good point here. I wonder what the total sales numbers year to date, via all sales channels; would show?
Unfortunately, I don't think there's a good way to know.
I suspect the DTRPG sales categories (Adamantium/Platinum/etc.) are based on current or recent sales. With any core book, there is a sales drop-off from when it was first released. OSE came out in 2018 while Worlds Without Number came out in 2022.
Also, even low sales in Amazon might be much bigger than top-tier DTRPG sales.
And, as others pointed out, sales are not the same thing as play -- noting that there have been some big-selling Kickstarters that might not translate into much actual play.
Number of convention games are one estimate, but popularity at conventions isn't necessarily the same as popularity in home play.
I'm not sure about the best estimate for actual play is.
Quote from: Jaeger on September 04, 2023, 03:22:22 PM
But I have also accepted the following truth...
People like their D&D they way they like it, and don't want it to change. Ever.
You hit the nail on the head.
This sums up most of the discussions I had (or read) about D&D for the past few decades.
It also explains some of the success of OSE, as B/X has a few things that deserved to be fixed - despite being my favorite form of D&D.
OSE, however, chose to keep the "best D&D" as written, without fixing any obvious flaws/imbalances.
Other than that, OSE is really good looking, and the rules are very good.
Quote from: Klytus on September 04, 2023, 02:06:29 PM
You're seriously missing a substantial portion of the numbers if you ignore Kickstarter for OSE and WWN, since both were initially funded via Kickstarter. WWN had one KS for the core book, then another for the Atlas of the Latter Earth. These earned a total of ~$365,000. OSE has had 3 total KS, one for the Basic boxed set, one for Advanced, and one for a reprint. These earned a total of ~$1,264,000. Of course, those numbers don't include add-ons, but it's still pretty clear who the winner is, by almost a factor of 4.
And Dolmenwood currently sits at $1.245 Million on Kickstarter. And it's just an OSE variant.
Quote from: Brad on September 04, 2023, 05:04:18 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 04, 2023, 02:28:45 PM
I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.
Originally it was called B/X Essentials, and it was literally B/X. OSE has sort of moved to like 99% B/X with a few changes that don't matter much, but I think if you go ascending AC that's enough of a difference that it's no longer B/X and something else. I am not opposed to ascending AC at all, but if you're going to use OSE as a restatement of B/X, that change is fairly significant. Both are already included, but eliminating regular AC will probably alienate a bunch of OSR people, honestly. Swords and Wizardry already does this but it's not actually D&D, sort of like a D&D-inspired clone.
I dunno, just seems like a bad idea to me.
Swords & Wizardry doesn't eliminate descending AC. As with OSE, descending is default and ascending AC is offered as an option. This is still the case for the latest edition, just being delivered for KS backers.
Quote from: Brad on September 04, 2023, 05:04:18 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 04, 2023, 02:28:45 PM
I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.
Originally it was called B/X Essentials, and it was literally B/X. OSE has sort of moved to like 99% B/X with a few changes that don't matter much, but I think if you go ascending AC that's enough of a difference that it's no longer B/X and something else. I am not opposed to ascending AC at all, but if you're going to use OSE as a restatement of B/X, that change is fairly significant. Both are already included, but eliminating regular AC will probably alienate a bunch of OSR people, honestly. Swords and Wizardry already does this but it's not actually D&D, sort of like a D&D-inspired clone.
I dunno, just seems like a bad idea to me.
It's mathematically identical, though. I converted 2e to ascending AC, which is trivially simple, I'm absolutely still playing 2e even w/o THAC0. I get what you're trying to argue and could see some grogs argue the same, but I personally don't feel it matters and yes you'd still be playing B/X, IMO. If the math itself were different (something like converting 1e to ascending AC without correcting for the repeating 20s in the matrix) I'd be more inclined to agree.
I will start by admitting that I have only played OSE once, and I don't own the physical copies. However, my measure I use to address your question is the following:
1. Is the system known within the OSR / Indy sphere?
2. Is the author and product well respected?
3. Is the physical presentation of the game books of high quality (including art), formatted well and professional?
4. Is the game system easy to pick up and play, and more importantly to run?
5. Is the game system widely run at conventions, and tables are sold out (full capacity)?
Based on the criteria I'd argue that Hyperborea (AS&SoH) authored by Jeffrey Talanian threatens OSE for top OSR spot, and IMHO surpasses it on many levels.
It seems to me that the OSR is a nebulous cloud. For example: if I use the classes, spells and combat rules from OSE Advanced, but I use the equipment tables from Labyrinth Lord AEC, and the adventures from Lamentations of the Flame Princess, while using Crawford's "-Without Number" books for the charts and tables...while spending money and buying all of the aforementioned products... Which game would I be playing?
Likewise if my OSE books all got burned up in a fire and Hazards-of-the-bro lawfared the game out of existence, I'd still have Moldvay/Cook B/X. So I'd say that OSE, as great as it is, is just a rewrite of someone else's work. While Crawford's is an original game.
Quote from: Bluddworth on September 05, 2023, 10:46:50 AM
Based on the criteria I'd argue that Hyperborea (AS&SoH) authored by Jeffrey Talanian threatens OSE for top OSR spot, and IMHO surpasses it on many levels.
Naw, too setting specific. That alone will limit its spread/growth
Shadowdark is doing a splendid job at bringing more folks over to the OSR way of gaming. They are probably at $2M in sales in the first year, have already kicked off multiple Game Jams, and folks are selling/kickstarting multiple projects using the rulesets.
Let's see where it goes in 3 years rivaling OSE for that top spot.
Quote from: Persimmon on September 04, 2023, 07:13:26 PM
Swords & Wizardry doesn't eliminate descending AC. As with OSE, descending is default and ascending AC is offered as an option. This is still the case for the latest edition, just being delivered for KS backers.
Yeah, that's what I meant; wasn't clear the way I wrote it...I blame the whisky.
Quote from: shoplifter on September 04, 2023, 10:10:21 PM
It's mathematically identical, though.
You're never going to convince anyone using logic, they like what they like...
Quote from: shoplifter on September 04, 2023, 10:10:21 PM
Quote from: Brad on September 04, 2023, 05:04:18 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 04, 2023, 02:28:45 PM
I get why moving off of race-and-class might muddle the numbers, but I don't see why ascending AC would be such a big deal, compatibility-wise. Isn't it an extremely easy conversion to do? I feel like I've seen multiple OSR products that just went ahead and included both.
Originally it was called B/X Essentials, and it was literally B/X. OSE has sort of moved to like 99% B/X with a few changes that don't matter much, but I think if you go ascending AC that's enough of a difference that it's no longer B/X and something else. I am not opposed to ascending AC at all, but if you're going to use OSE as a restatement of B/X, that change is fairly significant. Both are already included, but eliminating regular AC will probably alienate a bunch of OSR people, honestly. Swords and Wizardry already does this but it's not actually D&D, sort of like a D&D-inspired clone.
I dunno, just seems like a bad idea to me.
It's mathematically identical, though.
But which one is more intuitive/easy to grok for noobs?
Besides people liking what they like if you want to expand your market you do need to think about that.
For instance Shadowdark is easier to grasp for someone who has never played anything but 5e, which should give it and it's author a leg up in capturing market.
Quote from: Brad on September 05, 2023, 11:31:28 AM
Quote from: shoplifter on September 04, 2023, 10:10:21 PM
It's mathematically identical, though.
You're never going to convince anyone using logic, they like what they like...
Not wrong about that ;D
Thaco vs Attack Bonus is super easy to convert on the fly.
I play with guys that come from 5E, so we use ascending AC.
In my mind, I just remember descending AC from Becmi.
They tell me which armor they're wielding, so I convert on the fly.
Leather Armor: Ac 5, so it's 14 AAC.
A friend of mine: "You should teach them the one true
way of Thaco!" Honestly, why?
But for many people it's an aesthetic thing, they aren't giving up.
So, I feel that Ose should continue to cater to both systems.
As to whether Ose is truly popular and played...
I don't know about America, but in Italy it is.
Here you cannot buy a pdf without the physical
copy and Ose is very widespread. (As rpg that
aren't 5e get to be widespread, that is).
There's plenty of discord servers devoted to it.
For our market, it is surely the main Osr rpg.
Quote from: Murphy78 on September 05, 2023, 12:08:55 PM
As to whether, Ose is truly popular and played...
I don't know about America
Anecdotal, but interesting...a while back I went to Hobby Lobby to get a diploma framed and just so happened to be wearing the OSE shirt I got with the previous Kickstarter. The dude in the frame department directly asked me about it and said his local group had switched from 5th edition to OSE.
So if I had to guess, I'd say it is popular just because I never ever hear about people playing RPGs when I'm out and about, but some rando at a hobby store plays OSE.
Quote from: Brad on September 05, 2023, 11:31:28 AM
You're never going to convince anyone using logic, they like what they like...
I'm going to venture this corollary...
People like what they're conditioned to "like" because of inertia. Whether that inertia is due to laziness, exposure, etc. is besides the larger point I'm going to make.
My *hyperbolic* contention is the "OSR movement" are necromantic death-cultists who are very adept at their dark-arts. It's people regurgitating their own nostalgia bombs onto a plate and re-cooking it and serving it back up to the faithful.
The mantra that B/X is the "movement" to best capture TTRPG's in some form is ludicrous to me. The reality is that the GM's and Designers that market the OSR believe that because 1) they are incentivized to do so 2) they are reactionary 3) they are intensely biased for possibly the latter and the former 4) they genuinely have fun with the system. Likely *all* of the above in some form. The issue is the people that PLAY and do not GM become the loyal faithful to this 'movement' and therefore its system(s)- not its contents. And we *rarely* talk about the contents... we always talk about the minutia of the system elements.
This is what I'm really talking about as an observer that lived and gamed deeply through the original iterations of what would be the Rennaissance before it became "Olde Schoole" (I started with Holmes edition) - The conceits of "OSR" are still amorphous and ambiguous to me. Everytime someone tries to define it - I see others adding games like MSH into it by dint of age. Which is ludicrous to me.
There are definitely DNA that is shared by OSR games - I'll be damned if I can figure out why using those specific systems to do the same KIND of gaming (Hexcrawling, Dungeoncrawling, Sandboxing, lots of tables) can't be done with more streamlined and better designed systems without St. Gary being invoked or one of his OSR intercessor prophets jumps in to declare heresy.
It's not that I don't understand B/X in any of its flavors, I have the Rules Cyclopedia right here. I have the books (not the box) for Holmes and Moldvay. I own all the modules. I've run them to death - some are in tatters, and are beloved to me - so I *get* the nostalgia. What I don't get is the fetishization which is no different than the dickwanks that play modern 5e and its freakshow that has mutated D&D into its own brand of fantasy. There should be a TACIT understanding that I find the OSR 100% compatible and more cohesive than 5e D&D conceits. I'm purely speaking about the system-wankery that represents the OSR.
Toppling OSE with another flavor of an OSR B/X retroclone is like asking which type of artificial sweetener do you like in your coffee.
The IDEA of what OSR games DO should be central - not the system that does them. Coffee should be black btw. (but I'll forgive you for your milk-drinks. Sweetener? Stop being a monster.)
Never heard of this Crawford guy and barely know what that game is. But what I do know is that in the past five years or so, I've seen various iterations of OSE in virtually every brick & mortar gaming store I've been in. I've seen it played extensively at Cons. Its kickstarters (including Dolmenwood) raise significantly more money every time. The only other OSR/clone I can think of with a similar presence or foot print is DCC, which has more of a niche. I've played both, especially OSE, a fair amount, but neither is my favorite version of THE game. But trying to say "Worlds No one's heard of it" is a bigger game because it sold 100 pdfs on drivethru or whatever seems kind of ridiculous. I've never seen that game in an actual store or met anyone who's ever played it. And sorry DM Bluddworth, "Hyperborea" is nowhere close either, though I personally like that game a lot, with 2nd edition being the best.
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Based on DTRPG sales (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php#adamantine?affiliate_id=848965), Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).
Apparently I "bought" 'Worlds without Number' according to DriveThru, but it was the free version.
Do they include free items in the sales data?
Quote from: Persimmon on September 05, 2023, 02:44:35 PM
But trying to say "Worlds No one's heard of it" is a bigger game because it sold 100 pdfs on drivethru or whatever seems kind of ridiculous. I've never seen that game in an actual store or met anyone who's ever played it.
Same here - I don't know people that play WWN.
However, might be worth mentioning that it sold more than 5000 copies on DTRPG (DTRPG stops counting badges at 5000).
The current best seller on DTRPG, as I type this, is another book by the same author - Cities Without Number, which sold more than 500 in less than a week.
Kevin Crawford writes some pretty good games and his stuff is worth checking out.
But I agree OSE is bigger and I use OSE often for reference.
Quote from: DocJones on September 05, 2023, 03:13:15 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Based on DTRPG sales (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php#adamantine?affiliate_id=848965), Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).
Apparently I "bought" 'Worlds without Number' according to DriveThru, but it was the free version.
Do they include free items in the sales data?
No, they don't, only paid copies.
The "free version" of WWN has no bestseller badge, but obviously must be 10 times more popular than the other version.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/348809/Worlds-Without-Number-Free-Edition
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/348791/Worlds-Without-Number
Quote from: Mistwell on September 04, 2023, 12:43:36 PM
I saw mention of Dolmenwood in this thread so looked at the Kickstarter. While it looks interesting, they're not really saying a whole lot about it on the kickstarter. Has anyone looked further into it? Is it meaningfully different than B/X or the same just with some different classes and a different setting? Are they planning to support it with additional adventures and such of is this likely it for that game?
https://youtu.be/hL_YAarvB5U?si=N71ke6fvtoqZYdzj
Quote from: cavalier973 on September 05, 2023, 08:49:44 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 04, 2023, 12:43:36 PM
I saw mention of Dolmenwood in this thread so looked at the Kickstarter. While it looks interesting, they're not really saying a whole lot about it on the kickstarter. Has anyone looked further into it? Is it meaningfully different than B/X or the same just with some different classes and a different setting? Are they planning to support it with additional adventures and such of is this likely it for that game?
https://youtu.be/hL_YAarvB5U?si=N71ke6fvtoqZYdzj
Woah. Two vids totaling over 3 hours. OK, that might be good for some morning walks. Thanks!
Quote from: Mistwell on September 05, 2023, 10:38:34 PM
Quote from: cavalier973 on September 05, 2023, 08:49:44 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 04, 2023, 12:43:36 PM
I saw mention of Dolmenwood in this thread so looked at the Kickstarter. While it looks interesting, they're not really saying a whole lot about it on the kickstarter. Has anyone looked further into it? Is it meaningfully different than B/X or the same just with some different classes and a different setting? Are they planning to support it with additional adventures and such of is this likely it for that game?
https://youtu.be/hL_YAarvB5U?si=N71ke6fvtoqZYdzj
Woah. Two vids totaling over 3 hours. OK, that might be good for some morning walks. Thanks!
You're welcome. There are three videos; player's guide, monster book, and campaign guide. The same guy has a 22 episode campaign set in Dolmenwood; it's quite entertaining. (Currently, they are working through "The Halls of Arden Vul").
OSE has traction because good physical products are produced, and on a level way beyond just POD pdfs. Books, and actual boxed sets are available to purchase. Getting actual visibility on store shelves is a huge advantage. People like have cool actual stuff to buy that they can use at the game table. It is nice after staring at a screen all day for work to relax and crack open an actual book.
Quote from: tenbones on September 05, 2023, 01:09:17 PM
I'm going to venture this corollary...
You're correct here, but my point still stands: feelings are unassailable by logic. Also the whole "fetishization" of B/X is actually super amusing to me because I remember very vividly how we were called all sorts of names for playing Red Box instead of AD&D. So of course I moved to AD&D in 8th grade ASAP and we trashed the boxed sets immediately.
This whole obsession with B/X IS indeed rose colored glasses to some degree, as the number of AD&D players was astronomically higher when I was a kid. So again, you're right, but so am I: logic will not change their minds. A lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.
Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:55:03 AM
Quote from: tenbones on September 05, 2023, 01:09:17 PM
I'm going to venture this corollary...
You're correct here, but my point still stands: feelings are unassailable by logic. Also the whole "fetishization" of B/X is actually super amusing to me because I remember very vividly how we were called all sorts of names for playing Red Box instead of AD&D. So of course I moved to AD&D in 8th grade ASAP and we trashed the boxed sets immediately.
This whole obsession with B/X IS indeed rose colored glasses to some degree, as the number of AD&D players was astronomically higher when I was a kid. So again, you're right, but so am I: logic will not change their minds. A lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.
Agreed. I worked in a game store that was mostly RPG business during this time period and AD&D was the huge gorilla with almost no one playing B/X except for kids. Sales figures corresponded with that fact. The players and DMs of that time thought AD&D was far superior rule set to B/X
Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:55:03 AMA lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.
My experience, and I've heard enough people express similar experiences that I don't think it's uncommon at all, is that most tables aren't quite playing rules-as-written, even if they think they are. Whenever you you get a new player from another group, there's always at least one thing that catches them up and they find is being done wrong, because that's not how they ever did it.
It's one of the reason I have very little use for "rules are inviolate" mentality like the mindset that some folks like Burning Wheel advocates have.
Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:55:03 AM
You're correct here, but my point still stands: feelings are unassailable by logic. Also the whole "fetishization" of B/X is actually super amusing to me because I remember very vividly how we were called all sorts of names for playing Red Box instead of AD&D. So of course I moved to AD&D in 8th grade ASAP and we trashed the boxed sets immediately.
This whole obsession with B/X IS indeed rose colored glasses to some degree, as the number of AD&D players was astronomically higher when I was a kid. So again, you're right, but so am I: logic will not change their minds. A lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.
I think some of it is logic and emotion working together. Our groups did mix them. We did misread things. We do have fond memories of it all. There's enough distance, though, that looking at the rules closely reminds me of some of the things that chafed. However, when I look at it from a hard-eyed rules perspective, B/X is just closer to what we would want now then AD&D is. Back then, that wasn't necessarily true.
Another part is that back then, it wasn't always clear how to get from A to B. For example, we liked race and class separate more than we liked race as class. So naturally we used the AD&D classes. Now, I still prefer race and class separate, but were I to run it, I'd use all the things I've learned in the meantime to split race and class in the BECMI/RC rules, instead of just using AD&D.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 06, 2023, 11:09:42 AM
I think some of it is logic and emotion working together. Our groups did mix them. We did misread things. We do have fond memories of it all. There's enough distance, though, that looking at the rules closely reminds me of some of the things that chafed. However, when I look at it from a hard-eyed rules perspective, B/X is just closer to what we would want now then AD&D is. Back then, that wasn't necessarily true.
Another part is that back then, it wasn't always clear how to get from A to B. For example, we liked race and class separate more than we liked race as class. So naturally we used the AD&D classes. Now, I still prefer race and class separate, but were I to run it, I'd use all the things I've learned in the meantime to split race and class in the BECMI/RC rules, instead of just using AD&D.
One of the best campaigns I ever played in was AD&D with Palladium FRP classes tacked on, using Rolemaster for the combat system. No idea how the DM made it work, but he did. This whole differentiation between systems today in no way matches up to actual old school, which was basically a buffet of choices and DMs did whatever they wanted. The shift from actual referees who adjudicated games to some sort of robot who merely reads a book and applies rules has made this hobby lamer and lamer as years have gone by.
Well, I doubt a Palladium-system class would work any worse in any other system than it does in the Palladium system, so there's that... ;)
Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 12:24:38 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 06, 2023, 11:09:42 AM
I think some of it is logic and emotion working together. Our groups did mix them. We did misread things. We do have fond memories of it all. There's enough distance, though, that looking at the rules closely reminds me of some of the things that chafed. However, when I look at it from a hard-eyed rules perspective, B/X is just closer to what we would want now then AD&D is. Back then, that wasn't necessarily true.
Another part is that back then, it wasn't always clear how to get from A to B. For example, we liked race and class separate more than we liked race as class. So naturally we used the AD&D classes. Now, I still prefer race and class separate, but were I to run it, I'd use all the things I've learned in the meantime to split race and class in the BECMI/RC rules, instead of just using AD&D.
One of the best campaigns I ever played in was AD&D with Palladium FRP classes tacked on, using Rolemaster for the combat system. No idea how the DM made it work, but he did. This whole differentiation between systems today in no way matches up to actual old school, which was basically a buffet of choices and DMs did whatever they wanted. The shift from actual referees who adjudicated games to some sort of robot who merely reads a book and applies rules has made this hobby lamer and lamer as years have gone by.
Fond memories, of games gone by. We all seem to have nostalgia, for the old days. If I had only known then, what I know now. Fond memories, indeed.
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 06, 2023, 12:35:37 PM
Fond memories, of games gone by. We all seem to have nostalgia, for the old days. If I had only known then, what I know now. Fond memories, indeed.
Enjoyed it a lot. Won't pretend that I didn't. Have no desire to recreate it.
Quote from: Brad on September 05, 2023, 11:31:28 AM
You're never going to convince anyone using logic, they like what they like...
Yup.
You will never reason anyone out of a position that they did not reason themselves into in the first place.
Quote from: tenbones on September 05, 2023, 01:09:17 PM
I'm going to venture this corollary...
People like what they're conditioned to "like" because of inertia. Whether that inertia is due to laziness, exposure, etc. is besides the larger point I'm going to make.
My *hyperbolic* contention is the "OSR movement" are necromantic death-cultists who are very adept at their dark-arts. It's people regurgitating their own nostalgia bombs onto a plate and re-cooking it and serving it back up to the faithful.
The mantra that B/X is the "movement" to best capture TTRPG's in some form is ludicrous to me. The reality is that the GM's and Designers that market the OSR believe that because 1) they are incentivized to do so 2) they are reactionary 3) they are intensely biased for possibly the latter and the former 4) they genuinely have fun with the system. Likely *all* of the above in some form. The issue is the people that PLAY and do not GM become the loyal faithful to this 'movement' and therefore its system(s)- not its contents. And we *rarely* talk about the contents... we always talk about the minutia of the system elements.
...
There are definitely DNA that is shared by OSR games - I'll be damned if I can figure out why using those specific systems to do the same KIND of gaming (Hexcrawling, Dungeoncrawling, Sandboxing, lots of tables) can't be done with more streamlined and better designed systems without St. Gary being invoked or one of his OSR intercessor prophets jumps in to declare heresy.
^This. Is. Truth.^
Good Game design is not static.
B/X AD&D got a lot right conceptually; but mechanically they are still a grab bag, with AD&D being an outright hot mess.
Much of B/X - AD&D could be fixed and streamlined - but they would never sell to the same crowd buying the clones...
Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:55:03 AM
Quote from: tenbones on September 05, 2023, 01:09:17 PM
I'm going to venture this corollary...
You're correct here, but my point still stands: feelings are unassailable by logic. Also the whole "fetishization" of B/X is actually super amusing to me because I remember very vividly how we were called all sorts of names for playing Red Box instead of AD&D. So of course I moved to AD&D in 8th grade ASAP and we trashed the boxed sets immediately.
This whole obsession with B/X IS indeed rose colored glasses to some degree, as the number of AD&D players was astronomically higher when I was a kid. So again, you're right, but so am I: logic will not change their minds. A lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.
That was not my experience. I remember preferring B/X (which was not Red Box and I still have my original copies) over AD&D, and kept playing right up until my group insisted we move to AD&D. We never played AD&D with B/X we just moved over wholesale.
And it looked like this:
(https://i0.wp.com/waynesbooks.games/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/dd-basic-expert-sets-a-det.jpg)
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 06, 2023, 01:48:53 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 06, 2023, 12:35:37 PM
Fond memories, of games gone by. We all seem to have nostalgia, for the old days. If I had only known then, what I know now. Fond memories, indeed.
Enjoyed it a lot. Won't pretend that I didn't. Have no desire to recreate it.
Nostalgia, sells a lot of games.
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 07, 2023, 12:40:57 AM
Nostalgia, sells a lot of games.
Maybe. Not to me it doesn't.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 06, 2023, 01:48:53 PM
Enjoyed it a lot. Won't pretend that I didn't. Have no desire to recreate it.
I sort of agree with you here...when I was in junior high/high school, I played the most complex shit possible. The more crap added to the game, the more rules, the more accoutrements, the better. And it was great. Now, however, I want something simple and easy to play. As much as I'm a stickler for playing AD&D BtB, most of the time whenever I run a game it's closer to AD&D with ascending AC and a lot of stuff from Castles and Crusades ported over to make the game super fast. Simple initiative, yes. No combat table? Yes.
I fondly reflect back on the good old days, but now that I actually am responsible for a mortgage, two kids, a job, etc., I just want to get on with it and play, not wallow around in game theory.
Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:55:03 AM
Quote from: tenbones on September 05, 2023, 01:09:17 PM
I'm going to venture this corollary...
You're correct here, but my point still stands: feelings are unassailable by logic. Also the whole "fetishization" of B/X is actually super amusing to me because I remember very vividly how we were called all sorts of names for playing Red Box instead of AD&D. So of course I moved to AD&D in 8th grade ASAP and we trashed the boxed sets immediately.
This whole obsession with B/X IS indeed rose colored glasses to some degree, as the number of AD&D players was astronomically higher when I was a kid. So again, you're right, but so am I: logic will not change their minds. A lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.
Oh you're definitely right, heh that's why I said it was a corollary. What I'm aiming at for those of us that respect the past but are not slaves to it (hindsight being the motherfucker that it is) has to do with my plans in the future.
I know you can't change feelings with logic, but I want to take "clippings", if you'll allow me to use the metaphor, of those that can pull away for only a slight bit and grow something new, using what we've collectively learned over the years. Watching honest discussion get mired in decades-old silly debates that have nothing to do with what we ought to be doing. Just like D&D grew from Wargaming... we can grow TTRPG's into something rooted in the good aspects of the past, without being slaves to it. D&D as a brand will kill itself. Long live the D&D Fantasy genre as *we* knew it, and will remake it.
I'm genuinely excited about the TTRPG future. Even *if* it craters down to the 80's level of population (mildly hyperbolic) - of course it won't. The idea of rebuilding with core GM's and players coming up with good guidelines, better games, new IP's that are not directly tied to the D&D brand (even if it's tied to the genre) is a blessing to all of us. Even as we watch the rest of the pop-culture IP's of old take it on the chin, it's not the first time it has happened for some of these IP's. But we get to be there for the next golden age but it depends on us.
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
[cough]
Advanced Crimson Dragon Slayer [cough]
Quote from: Bruwulf on September 06, 2023, 10:23:54 AM
Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:55:03 AMA lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.
My experience, and I've heard enough people express similar experiences that I don't think it's uncommon at all, is that most tables aren't quite playing rules-as-written, even if they think they are. Whenever you you get a new player from another group, there's always at least one thing that catches them up and they find is being done wrong, because that's not how they ever did it.
It was common enough (I certainly did it in multiple groups) that about 14 years ago I wrote about it in a blog post titled "Intermediate D&D". I suspect some variant of "Intermediate D&D" was the standard back then, which is why I have a hard time taking the BrOSR guys too seriously.
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 05:39:08 PM
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons by laying it out and tightly editing it in an impeccable manner.
I'd argue Rules Cyclopedia D&D is the definitive best expression of Dungeons & Dragons. Gavin Norman stubbornly refuses to incorporate any of BECMI/RC's additions into OSE or an OSE supplement for some strange reason.
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.
To capture that spirit of "how we did it in the day" I have been thinking of taking S&W Whitebox or similar and combining it with the Arduin Trilogy to create the 1970's experience. I could use S&W Complete, or just Whitebox, but nothing else other than those two. Let the period mash-up begin!
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 02, 2023, 09:03:06 PM
I doubt it.
As a latecomer to the OSR, there are four games I regard as having had a significant degree of mainstream (within the already niche world of RPGs) success: Old School Essentials, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Dungeon Crawl Classics, and Castles & Crusades.
Of the four, DCC looked like it was breaking through at one point, but it seems to have tapered off. I think it's just too weird, with all the zany dice and random tables, to ever really take over. Castles and Crusades would be my pick for an OSE-killer, but for some reason (possibly because a lot of people dislike the SIEGE engine) it's never caught on. Lamentations is too controversial, and let's be honest: James Raggi has no interest in being a game designer.
Behind those, there's a pretty wide swath of what I'd call "2nd tier" OSR games: stuff like Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea, Machinations of the Space Princess, Lion and Dragon or Worlds/Stars Without Number. For my money, that's where you find the more interesting games, because they're taking the skeleton of Basic D&D and building new games on it, rather than restating the same game a little bit differently. Those will never take over, though, because that's not what most people want from the OSR.
Shadowdark looked like it might have broken big, just for having that "OSR for the 5e crowd" cachet, but it seems to have been a flash in the pan.
P.S. I know OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord were important in their time, but nobody I see seems to play them anymore.
I think DCC's problem is it's refusal to incorporate exploration mechanics or iterate in any way on it's emaciated frame.
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 08, 2023, 04:47:28 PMIt was common enough (I certainly did it in multiple groups) that about 14 years ago I wrote about it in a blog post titled "Intermediate D&D". I suspect some variant of "Intermediate D&D" was the standard back then, which is why I have a hard time taking the BrOSR guys too seriously.
I refuse to believe the BrOSR thing is anything other than elaborate performative hoax.
Quote from: Bruwulf on September 08, 2023, 04:58:21 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 08, 2023, 04:47:28 PMIt was common enough (I certainly did it in multiple groups) that about 14 years ago I wrote about it in a blog post titled "Intermediate D&D". I suspect some variant of "Intermediate D&D" was the standard back then, which is why I have a hard time taking the BrOSR guys too seriously.
I refuse to believe the BrOSR thing is anything other than elaborate performative hoax.
They all but admit that. It's cultish nonsense.
Cities Without Number is brilliant, by the way. It's a clean and intuitive OSR version of Shadowrun/Cyberpunk.
Quote from: GamerforHire on September 08, 2023, 04:55:29 PM
To capture that spirit of "how we did it in the day" I have been thinking of taking S&W Whitebox or similar and combining it with the Arduin Trilogy to create the 1970's experience. I could use S&W Complete, or just Whitebox, but nothing else other than those two. Let the period mash-up begin!
If you want to capture the "70's experience" including kludgy mechanics just play one. Why reinvent?
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 05:39:08 PM
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons by laying it out and tightly editing it in an impeccable manner.
I'd argue Rules Cyclopedia D&D is the definitive best expression of Dungeons & Dragons. Gavin Norman stubbornly refuses to incorporate any of BECMI/RC's additions into OSE or an OSE supplement for some strange reason.
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.
Gavin has been pretty forthright in noting that he doesn't like many of the rules tweaks of BECMI from B/X and that he thinks the game went into a bit of a power creep/bloat with the BECMI Rules sets that deviated from the B/X vision/promise. He also seems to think few groups play past level 10 anyhow, so why bother? Not my words, just trying to encapsulate things I've see him state in various places.
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.
If ACKII actually uses a coherent combat system, then I am all for it.
Quote from: Persimmon on September 08, 2023, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 05:39:08 PM
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons by laying it out and tightly editing it in an impeccable manner.
I'd argue Rules Cyclopedia D&D is the definitive best expression of Dungeons & Dragons. Gavin Norman stubbornly refuses to incorporate any of BECMI/RC's additions into OSE or an OSE supplement for some strange reason.
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.
Gavin has been pretty forthright in noting that he doesn't like many of the rules tweaks of BECMI from B/X and that he thinks the game went into a bit of a power creep/bloat with the BECMI Rules sets that deviated from the B/X vision/promise. He also seems to think few groups play past level 10 anyhow, so why bother? Not my words, just trying to encapsulate things I've see him state in various places.
There's a strangely snobby attitude amongst some B/X diehards towards BECMI/RC that I've never understood. B/X was never intended to stop at level 14, and few groups played past level 10 because there wasn't anything interesting to do past level 10 before BECMI. War Machine, Fighter Combat Options, Domain management, and the Stronghold construction rules are all fantastic and purely additive to B/X. Weapon Mastery and skills are more controversial, but they're 100% optional. There's no logic to his argument. The BECMI Thief is underpowered, but so is the B/X Thief. The easy fix is using the AD&D 2e point buy system for Thief skills instead of the static progression.
Quote from: Brad on September 08, 2023, 06:03:24 PM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.
If ACKII actually uses a coherent combat system, then I am all for it.
Did you have issues with original edition ACKS combat?
Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 12:24:38 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 06, 2023, 11:09:42 AM
I think some of it is logic and emotion working together. Our groups did mix them. We did misread things. We do have fond memories of it all. There's enough distance, though, that looking at the rules closely reminds me of some of the things that chafed. However, when I look at it from a hard-eyed rules perspective, B/X is just closer to what we would want now then AD&D is. Back then, that wasn't necessarily true.
Another part is that back then, it wasn't always clear how to get from A to B. For example, we liked race and class separate more than we liked race as class. So naturally we used the AD&D classes. Now, I still prefer race and class separate, but were I to run it, I'd use all the things I've learned in the meantime to split race and class in the BECMI/RC rules, instead of just using AD&D.
One of the best campaigns I ever played in was AD&D with Palladium FRP classes tacked on, using Rolemaster for the combat system. No idea how the DM made it work, but he did. This whole differentiation between systems today in no way matches up to actual old school, which was basically a buffet of choices and DMs did whatever they wanted. The shift from actual referees who adjudicated games to some sort of robot who merely reads a book and applies rules has made this hobby lamer and lamer as years have gone by.
My current "Old School" RPG of choice is Mythras. I got my start with Moldvay, never was much interested in MI, just stuck with BEC, and shifted over to AD&D mixing in Arduin, Rolemaster, Gamma World. I never even saw a D&D campaign that wasn't a completely houseruled conglomeration of systems until the 90's.
The OSR is extremely fad-driven. Someone will be the next fad. If Shadowdark can come up with all the support OSE has, it could be a contender. If Kevin Crawford decides to go balls deep in Worlds Without Number support, he'd be the front runner I should think.
Quote from: Scooter on September 08, 2023, 05:35:51 PM
Quote from: GamerforHire on September 08, 2023, 04:55:29 PM
To capture that spirit of "how we did it in the day" I have been thinking of taking S&W Whitebox or similar and combining it with the Arduin Trilogy to create the 1970's experience. I could use S&W Complete, or just Whitebox, but nothing else other than those two. Let the period mash-up begin!
If you want to capture the "70's experience" including kludgy mechanics just play one. Why reinvent?
Because that IS how we played in the early days—with a mashup of Arduin on top of AD&D and OD&D. My point is to go back and capture it more intentionally by using a single retroclone plus Arduin.
Quote from: Brad on September 08, 2023, 06:03:24 PM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.
If ACKII actually uses a coherent combat system, then I am all for it.
Given ACKS is already my goto version of D&D I really wish he'd get it out already.
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 05:39:08 PM
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons by laying it out and tightly editing it in an impeccable manner.
I'd argue Rules Cyclopedia D&D is the definitive best expression of Dungeons & Dragons. Gavin Norman stubbornly refuses to incorporate any of BECMI/RC's additions into OSE or an OSE supplement for some strange reason.
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.
Not know much about America, but for what I get Becmi doesn't seem to be really popular over there. In Italy, we do have the cult of Becmi, but that's because it's literally the first rpg we saw...Anyway, even here, few people played Companion and Master...and OSE seems to have occupied the osr niche to the tune of "Back to the Red Box".
I really liked Acks 1e for the idea of taking Companion to Bx...but is it popular? (Not a rhetorical question, it's just that I don't know anybody just knowing about it ).
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 06:11:10 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on September 08, 2023, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 02, 2023, 05:39:08 PM
What Gavin Norman accomplished was to prove, definitively, that the 1981 Basic/Expert was the best expression of Dungeons and Dragons by laying it out and tightly editing it in an impeccable manner.
I'd argue Rules Cyclopedia D&D is the definitive best expression of Dungeons & Dragons. Gavin Norman stubbornly refuses to incorporate any of BECMI/RC's additions into OSE or an OSE supplement for some strange reason.
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.
Gavin has been pretty forthright in noting that he doesn't like many of the rules tweaks of BECMI from B/X and that he thinks the game went into a bit of a power creep/bloat with the BECMI Rules sets that deviated from the B/X vision/promise. He also seems to think few groups play past level 10 anyhow, so why bother? Not my words, just trying to encapsulate things I've see him state in various places.
There's a strangely snobby attitude amongst some B/X diehards towards BECMI/RC that I've never understood. B/X was never intended to stop at level 14, and few groups played past level 10 because there wasn't anything interesting to do past level 10 before BECMI. War Machine, Fighter Combat Options, Domain management, and the Stronghold construction rules are all fantastic and purely additive to B/X. Weapon Mastery and skills are more controversial, but they're 100% optional. There's no logic to his argument. The BECMI Thief is underpowered, but so is the B/X Thief. The easy fix is using the AD&D 2e point buy system for Thief skills instead of the static progression.
I subscribe with every single word.
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 09, 2023, 12:40:26 AM
Quote from: Brad on September 08, 2023, 06:03:24 PM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.
If ACKII actually uses a coherent combat system, then I am all for it.
Given ACKS is already my goto version of D&D I really wish he'd get it out already.
Alex is working on it.
I'm using ACKS II updates in my current campaign but PCs are only Adventurer tier so I haven't introduced any of the updated domain stuff yet.
My players seem to like it so far.
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?
Based on DTRPG sales (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php#adamantine?affiliate_id=848965), Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).
Best Seller but is anyone actually playing it? Same question with OSE.
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 06:13:16 PM
Did you have issues with original edition ACKS combat?
I absolutely HATE the way attacks work...a simple bonus-to-hit would have sufficed. I realize the intent is to make it allegedly easier to run, but yeah not for me.
Honestly, I think Castles and Crusades has the easiest to understand combat system for monsters. Add HD to d20 roll, compare to AC. Super simple and takes milliseconds to comprehend.
Quote from: moonsweeper on September 09, 2023, 06:24:34 AM
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 09, 2023, 12:40:26 AM
Quote from: Brad on September 08, 2023, 06:03:24 PM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
I think Adventurer Conqueror King II could take the crown. It looks like a true evolution and refinement of the Rules Cyclopedia.
If ACKII actually uses a coherent combat system, then I am all for it.
Given ACKS is already my goto version of D&D I really wish he'd get it out already.
Alex is working on it.
I'm using ACKS II updates in my current campaign but PCs are only Adventurer tier so I haven't introduced any of the updated domain stuff yet.
My players seem to like it so far.
I think I'm 90% of the way there using the exploding 20s, heroic healing, the thief synergy (his recent YT video on thieves seems to indicate he did go that direction), and a handful of other things.
The biggest I'm waiting for is the updated class design rules. I know the trade-offs for weapon and armor usage are changing quite a bit and that will affect some campaign specific classes I have (plus some for the Player's Companion).
Quote from: Timothe on September 09, 2023, 09:26:30 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on September 03, 2023, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 02, 2023, 03:22:58 PM
OSE has had the most forward momentum, for a while now.
What are you using to determine what the "top rpg" is?
Based on DTRPG sales (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php#adamantine?affiliate_id=848965), Worlds Without Number (Adamantine seller) is eating everyone's lunch, including OSE (Mithral at best).
Best Seller but is anyone actually playing it? Same question with OSE.
Not playing WwN, not because I don't like it but because I said upthread ACKs is my fantasy go to. I do use the excellent systems for generating content from it though.
Quote from: Brad on September 09, 2023, 09:35:11 AM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 06:13:16 PM
Did you have issues with original edition ACKS combat?
I absolutely HATE the way attacks work...a simple bonus-to-hit would have sufficed. I realize the intent is to make it allegedly easier to run, but yeah not for me.
Honestly, I think Castles and Crusades has the easiest to understand combat system for monsters. Add HD to d20 roll, compare to AC. Super simple and takes milliseconds to comprehend.
Yep; that was among the many reasons we've finally shifted over to C&C full-time. Super easy and fast to run; tons of options, old school vibe.
Quote from: Brad on September 09, 2023, 09:35:11 AM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 06:13:16 PM
Did you have issues with original edition ACKS combat?
I absolutely HATE the way attacks work...a simple bonus-to-hit would have sufficed. I realize the intent is to make it allegedly easier to run, but yeah not for me.
Honestly, I think Castles and Crusades has the easiest to understand combat system for monsters. Add HD to d20 roll, compare to AC. Super simple and takes milliseconds to comprehend.
It is the weakest part of the rules set. That one factor alone will keep it a niche game compared to things like OSE and C&C.
Quote from: Persimmon on September 09, 2023, 10:15:12 PM
Quote from: Brad on September 09, 2023, 09:35:11 AM
Quote from: RabidWookie on September 08, 2023, 06:13:16 PM
Did you have issues with original edition ACKS combat?
I absolutely HATE the way attacks work...a simple bonus-to-hit would have sufficed. I realize the intent is to make it allegedly easier to run, but yeah not for me.
Honestly, I think Castles and Crusades has the easiest to understand combat system for monsters. Add HD to d20 roll, compare to AC. Super simple and takes milliseconds to comprehend.
Yep; that was among the many reasons we've finally shifted over to C&C full-time. Super easy and fast to run; tons of options, old school vibe.
Same with us. Fast, lean with lots of options. AND, can feel like the old days
Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:55:03 AM
Quote from: tenbones on September 05, 2023, 01:09:17 PM
I'm going to venture this corollary...
You're correct here, but my point still stands: feelings are unassailable by logic. Also the whole "fetishization" of B/X is actually super amusing to me because I remember very vividly how we were called all sorts of names for playing Red Box instead of AD&D. So of course I moved to AD&D in 8th grade ASAP and we trashed the boxed sets immediately.
This whole obsession with B/X IS indeed rose colored glasses to some degree, as the number of AD&D players was astronomically higher when I was a kid. So again, you're right, but so am I: logic will not change their minds. A lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.
Late to the party, but you sum up my experience perfectly. Back in '83 got the Mentzer Red Box (like many fellow gen x'ers), immediately fell in love with the game, and still have fond memories of the introductory adventure (Aleena....so sad). But that was I think 6th grade, by 1984 was running AD&D games less than a year after picking up the basic set. That was the introductory game for kiddies you see. "Real Men" played AD&D. Never even touched another BECMI product until picking up the Rules Cyclopedia as a curiosity in '95 (was heavily into running 2nd Edition AD&D at the time).
So when the OSR movement picked up steam the last decade plus, was a bit confused as to why B/X became a "thing". Don't get me wrong, love B/X for its charm and simplicity, but I did not believe that all the gamers that grew up as I did were suddenly seeing B/X as the penultimate system of choice for OSR. Has to be nostalgia tainted with rose colored lenses. Still I like so many of the OSR products being released that I now have an entire bookshelf filled with OSR books of various stripes, mostly B/X clones of some type, several 1ed inspired games, and even great non-D&D OSR games such as MERP based Against the Darkmaster. Mainly these are owned for nostalgia purposes, have yet to get an OSR campaign up and running (so many other great modern RPGs I wish to get on the table as well).
Not hard to see why this is occurring though. Many Gen X gamers have a soft spot for the Mentzer set, just as many other Gen X'ers and boomers have fond memories of the older Holmes & Moldvay editions. I believe most of us may have got our start in the game with one of those sets then eventually moved into AD&D. SO now with so many of us having disposable incomes, combined with the fact that "modern" D&D (and TTRPGs in general) have taken such an extreme direction away from what we fondly remember, it is easy to see why OSR has exploded in general. Now we are seeing the downstream effect of hipsters and hangers-on, people who did not grow up with these rules jumping on the bandwagon (such as Shadowdark), which is usually a sign a movement has reached its nadir.
Quote from: Valhuen on September 10, 2023, 09:35:46 AM
Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:55:03 AM
Quote from: tenbones on September 05, 2023, 01:09:17 PM
I'm going to venture this corollary...
You're correct here, but my point still stands: feelings are unassailable by logic. Also the whole "fetishization" of B/X is actually super amusing to me because I remember very vividly how we were called all sorts of names for playing Red Box instead of AD&D. So of course I moved to AD&D in 8th grade ASAP and we trashed the boxed sets immediately.
This whole obsession with B/X IS indeed rose colored glasses to some degree, as the number of AD&D players was astronomically higher when I was a kid. So again, you're right, but so am I: logic will not change their minds. A lot of this crap is just misremembering stuff and truly believing everyone was actually playing B/X using the AD&D books because they didn't use weapon speed and AC type. No, you were all playing AD&D, couldn't figure out that crap, so made the game simpler, and now retroactively decided it was actually B/X all along.
Late to the party, but you sum up my experience perfectly. Back in '83 got the Mentzer Red Box (like many fellow gen x'ers), immediately fell in love with the game, and still have fond memories of the introductory adventure (Aleena....so sad). But that was I think 6th grade, by 1984 was running AD&D games less than a year after picking up the basic set. That was the introductory game for kiddies you see. "Real Men" played AD&D. Never even touched another BECMI product until picking up the Rules Cyclopedia as a curiosity in '95 (was heavily into running 2nd Edition AD&D at the time).
So when the OSR movement picked up steam the last decade plus, was a bit confused as to why B/X became a "thing". Don't get me wrong, love B/X for its charm and simplicity, but I did not believe that all the gamers that grew up as I did were suddenly seeing B/X as the penultimate system of choice for OSR. Has to be nostalgia tainted with rose colored lenses. Still I like so many of the OSR products being released that I now have an entire bookshelf filled with OSR books of various stripes, mostly B/X clones of some type, several 1ed inspired games, and even great non-D&D OSR games such as MERP based Against the Darkmaster. Mainly these are owned for nostalgia purposes, have yet to get an OSR campaign up and running (so many other great modern RPGs I wish to get on the table as well).
Not hard to see why this is occurring though. Many Gen X gamers have a soft spot for the Mentzer set, just as many other Gen X'ers and boomers have fond memories of the older Holmes & Moldvay editions. I believe most of us may have got our start in the game with one of those sets then eventually moved into AD&D. SO now with so many of us having disposable incomes, combined with the fact that "modern" D&D (and TTRPGs in general) have taken such an extreme direction away from what we fondly remember, it is easy to see why OSR has exploded in general. Now we are seeing the downstream effect of hipsters and hangers-on, people who did not grow up with these rules jumping on the bandwagon (such as Shadowdark), which is usually a sign a movement has reached its nadir.
Good points. It was pretty much the same where I grew up, in the suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio. Got the Moldvay magenta box for Christmas in 1981. Rolled up our first characters and started playing on New Year's Eve. Within a couple months got the Cook expert set. By late spring or early summer of 1982 we had the Monster Manual. PHB, FF, and DMG followed that summer. We played pretty much a hybrid of B/X & AD&D, though we thought we were playing AD&D. However, when the Companion set dropped (I never owned the Mentzer B/X sets), I had one friend who was really into domain play and favored BEC (at that time), though he also played AD&D. From that point I played both, but usually with different people. This lasted about 5 years, but when the Gazetteers started coming out, I went back to BECMI (ca. 1988-93), with a bit of AD&D. I never bought the 2nd edition rulebooks, though I picked up some of the monster supplements in the 1990s. But in grad school (1990s) we mostly played MERP because we were all big Tolkien fans and didn't much like 2e. I tried later editions of what they call D&D, but never liked any of them. After playing other games and older versions of D&D sporadically, I discovered the OSR in 2016. And it's always been strange to me that B/X clones and derivatives seem to dominate as it was definitely not the most popular game around me back in the day. I assume, it's simply easier to learn, model, and build from. I know from long experience that it's easier to run than AD&D, assuming you don't bring in all the options from the RC which make BECMI arguably the more complex game. This is also why we likely have just the one dedicated BECMI/RC clone.