This can include:
• Being a wizard (or witch, sorcerer, warlock, or magician).
• Having a bloodline of a magical creature (including being a demigod).
• Having a magical sidekick.
• Doing explicitly magical things despite not being explicitly magical (see: shitty anime).
• Having a magical weapon or item that allows him to perform magic.
The alien leader from Krull.
Tywin Lannister?
King Snurre
A Song of Fire and Ice would be a pretty good candidate, depending upon who you think the BBEG of the series really is. Lord Tywin, Cersei, Jamie and Tyrion show little use of or aptitude for magic. Maybe there is a minor use of it, via a hireling, at some point (limited POV makes this hard to assess) but mostly they manage to be really irritating mundane adversaries.
On the other hand, if the BBEG is Daenerys Targaryen then she definitely has access to magic via her dragons and bloodline. At the moment they are really the two camps fighting for first place as the main series villains. It's pretty clear that the series is intended to be high fantasy.
Edit: Daddy Warpig beat me to it by 4 minutes.
Prince Humperdinck?
Quote from: Imp;683673Prince Humperdinck?
Inconceivable!
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;683620This can include:
• Being a wizard (or witch, sorcerer, warlock, or magician).
• Having a bloodline of a magical creature (including being a demigod).
• Having a magical sidekick.
• Doing explicitly magical things despite not being explicitly magical (see: shitty anime).
• Having a magical weapon or item that allows him to perform magic.
No, because if there was it would no longer be High Fantasy.
A tough question actually, since magic is, well, a staple of High Fantasy after all.
There is Mordred, though that depends on a definition of high fantasy as well as BBEG (he had Morgana le Fey behind him, after all).
I would actually suggest Hrathen from Elantris, whose abilities are mostly deadly training, devotion, oratory talent and just a spice of enchantment as we learn by the end of the book.
As for SoIaF, hard to find there a good guy, so pretty much everyone :P.
If we'd count Discworld as High Fantasy, even if parody of it, there is of course Vetinari, the Allfather of Cunning Bastards everywhere (I personally had a good chuckle to see same actor play Vetinari in Going Postal, as Tywin Lannister in SoIaF. That man just has a natural knack for playing ruthless politicians).
One of the Bigger Bads of Malazan also, Kallor, could count to this, because even if he has access to magic, we haven't seen that (except maybe in Toll The Hounds, I can't quite remember), at least when he's doing his Evil Work. He has definitely some sort of magical resistance at the very least, though that may be the result of his curse.
From comic seriers Thorgal, there is of course Kriss de Valnor, a ruthless female mercenary which has no magic capabilities at all, but does make titular character's life living hell on few occasions.
Well, hang on, let's be exact here. Doesn't have *access* to magic, or isn't seen on screen to *use* magic?
Let's take Princess Bride, for instance. Plainly there's magic in the world, and plainly Prince Humperdinck could have some if he wanted. (Heck, for all we know, he's got a magic sword.)
Quote from: Ravenswing;683746Let's take Princess Bride, for instance. Plainly there's magic in the world, and plainly Prince Humperdinck could have some if he wanted. (Heck, for all we know, he's got a magic sword.)
The machine in the Pit Of Despair is magical. I'm not sure you can have a BBEG in a high-fantasy world who does not use magic and neither do any of his cohorts. It's high fantasy. There's a lot of magic. The only thing I can think of is a scenario where the BBEG is explicitly anti-magical and trying to destroy all the magic in the world, that sort of thing.
But Humperdinck himself doesn't touch any magic. His only power is being an absurdly good tracker, really.
I really would not categorize The Princess Bride as 'High Fantasy'.
Quote from: Rincewind1;683694One of the Bigger Bads of Malazan also, Kallor, could count to this, because even if he has access to magic, we haven't seen that (except maybe in Toll The Hounds, I can't quite remember), at least when he's doing his Evil Work. He has definitely some sort of magical resistance at the very least, though that may be the result of his curse.
He's intrinsically magical by nature, given he's cursed with immortality. That gives him access to millenia of combat experience (gained the hard way) and all sorts of knowledge beyond the ken of mere mortals.
Quote from: Kiero;683822He's intrinsically magical by nature, given he's cursed with immortality. That gives him access to millenia of combat experience (gained the hard way) and all sorts of knowledge beyond the ken of mere mortals.
True, but I assume we're discussing here BBEGs that may be magical, but they don't (routinely) use magic. And Kallor comes as close to being a badass evil guy in Malazan as can be, without being an ascendant or a wizard :D.
Quote from: estar;683679Inconceivable!
I do not think it means what you think it means.
Quote from: Imp;683673Prince Humperdinck?
Only because he fired Miracle Max.
I might be the only one far enough in the series...but, uh, Tywin Lannister is not the BBEG of Game of Thrones.
There's lots of definitions of BBEG. Sometimes in a campaign the 'first BBEG' turns out to be working for a bigger BBEG, and so on until you reach the 'ultimate BBEG' that's been pulling the strings from the beginning.
A non-magical ultimate BBEG could work, but usually it's easier to give them magical powers. Magical powers don't really need to be explained very well, and it clearly makes them special. If a BBEG is REALLY POWERFUL, it helps if he's not doing something that Joe Farmer could do (like being very persuasive).
But there are examples of non-magical lieutenants.
The Dungeons & Dragons movie (I know, terrible, right) had a warrior that was the main antagonist for most of the movie. He and a bunch of soldiers were running around chasing the 'good guys'. Jeremy Irons was the REAL BBEG, but he didn't really get involved in the mundane stuff, and thus for most of the 'campaign', the players would have been involved with a non-magical foil.
This movie also has a Thief Guild leader who serves to antagonize the players. While he is not the BBEG, he certainly could have been. If I were building a campaign around the movie (which I would never do), I'd have the first few levels focus on 'becoming a thief' with the obstacle of an antagonistic thieves' guild.
Lots of campaigns feature a 'power behind the throne' that can be magical or non-magical. The example that most quickly springs to mind is the Disney movie Aladdin where Jaffar was controlling the Sultan; Lord of the Rings did a very similar thing with Wormtoungue/Grima. While those examples are both somewhat magical, it's very possible to do the same thing without obvious magic. Usually we say a 'witch has put a spell on him' if an old king is spending a fortune on a young attractive queen, but in the real world that kind of thing happens with no 'real' magic. A campaign could have the BBEG be no more than a self-absorbed socialite using sex to bankrupt a kingdom and 'punish' disliked people. It practically writes itself as a '3 Musketeers' type of game.
In general, though, a non-magical BBEG is going to work best in a low-magic game. If someone doesn't have access to magic, they're unlikely to have much in the way of magical defenses.
If the young, nubile queen is using her sexual wiles to manipulate the king and the captain of the guard, she can be a real threat, but all it takes is someone dominating her and suddenly you have a new 'magical' BBEG.
It's pretty darn hard to think of any non-magic high fantasy BBEGs.
First one that comes to mind is the BBEG in Osamu Tezuka's Dororo, who doesn't use magic (but got his great political and military power as a result of making a deal with 48 demons - does that count as magic power? It doesn't actually help him during combats and such, it seems to have been a one time deal.). OTOH that's historical fantasy (medieval Japan) but there seems to be demons crawling all over the place...and the hero is essentially a psionics/telepathy/ESP using cyborg (what with his father trading 48 of his bodyparts to the 48 demons...).
Well, the concept of BBEG is antithetical to everything Miyazaki's done, but Lady Eboshi in Princess Mononoke is non- and anti-magical and she at least initially comes across as that sort of character. Again, not exactly high fantasy...
QuoteI might be the only one far enough in the series...but, uh, Tywin Lannister is not the BBEG of Game of Thrones.
Presumably that seat goes to "whoever leads the White Walkers", yeah?
Quote from: deadDMwalking;684416If the young, nubile queen is using her sexual wiles to manipulate the king and the captain of the guard, she can be a real threat, but all it takes is someone dominating her and suddenly you have a new 'magical' BBEG.
and a new crusade at awfulpurple.
Quote from: CRKrueger;684449and a new crusade at awfulpurple.
It's like the new Rule 34. If you think it, it's probably already under way.
Quote from: CRKrueger;684449and a new crusade at awfulpurple.
Evil Stepmother is a fantasy trope. I don't mind if crusaders try to tell me it is bad/wrong or portrays women in a negative light and/or casts sexual liberation as evil - I feel confident that I can include things in my games that I disagree with personally but are still part of a 'living world'.
Oppression exists in the real world. In heroic fantasy, PCs will need a chance to overcome oppression, so it must also exist in the fantasy world. If my fantasy world(s) looked like a future Utopia, there'd be no reason to have adventures set there.
I'd like to point out in response to numerous earlier posts that A Song of Ice and Fire is not high fantasy.
It doesn't have a cosmological conflict of Good and Evil as its centerpiece, it doesn't have black-and-white morality, it doesn't have an identified Big Villain, and the resolution doesn't hinge on non-materialistic factors. It isn't high fantasy.
"In a world with dominant power X, how about a BBEG that has zero access to power X?"
The question does not take into account the nature of power. It would be the same if it was a high sci-fi world, high fantasy, high intrigue, high cheap energy, etc. all the way into the ridiculous such as high sex in a decadent world, or high trickery in cartoon world. The dominant modus of power will have to have representation in the BBEG's reach, otherwise BBEG is not an independent holder of power and likely just a functionary of a real BBEG.
Now worlds can have multiple layers of power. And different characters can compete via more than one domain of power. And they can contest withing a domain of power.
But when one power becomes the dominant paradigm the true movers and shakers will have to engage it somehow. The only issue is the exchange rate between various other power domains and the dominant power domain. i.e. How much backroom intrigue or crowd charisma or military might one must trade for World Defining Power X. When a power comes to define the world, to be without access means you are either a tool to those who have it, or a speed bump along the way.
I guess this thread has answered my question: powerful fighters need access to magic to function in a game with wizards and clerics.
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684610I guess this thread has answered my question: powerful fighters need access to magic to function in a game with wizards and clerics.
Compete, not function.
And access to magic is a tricky thing. Personally I love the ideas from Black Company/Malazan/EarthSea, the whole idea of true caster's name shutting down magic for them.
QuoteCompete, not function.
Depends on how you view the class. If you take a fighter in 3e and strip him of his magic items, he won't be able to function against anything but low-CR monsters. If you give him his magic items, he'll be able to function, but not particularly well.
I suppose my overall idea is that I'm going to be handing out artifacts to non-casters in my games. (I don't mean that as snark, I'd like to see a fighter with a sword that lets him control undead, or a rogue who can summon spirits.)
Any conspiratorial mastermind like the character Littlefinger from Game of Thrones. He never uses magic, or even fights well, just uses his cunning. I'm not arguing that Littlefinger is the BBEG in the Game of Thrones but he could possibly be one, and may even be the final "Bad Guy" depending on how the next books go. Btw, I've read all the books. If you are looking for a villain that doesn't use magic and is not a warrior then an archtype based on Littlefinger is a good idea.
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684610I guess this thread has answered my question: powerful fighters need access to magic to function in a game with wizards and clerics.
Eh except that in the kind of high fantasy that Premier outlines (and many similar kinds of stories), the
protagonist usually doesn't have any magic powers, except often by the macguffin he's sent to retrieve and wield against The Dark One, in the most stereotypical version of high fantasy. That's right square in the D&D fighter concept (except, often, the protagonist in these stories is far from the best swordsman around).
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684628Depends on how you view the class. If you take a fighter in 3e and strip him of his magic items, he won't be able to function against anything but low-CR monsters. If you give him his magic items, he'll be able to function, but not particularly well.
I suppose my overall idea is that I'm going to be handing out artifacts to non-casters in my games. (I don't mean that as snark, I'd like to see a fighter with a sword that lets him control undead, or a rogue who can summon spirits.)
Then you should strip a wizard of his spell book and all material components, also eliminate the connection between a Cleric and their magical God. If you are going make the fighter non-magical in a magical world, make sure to be fair and make the other classes non-magical as well. Otherwise it's a dishonest argument.
The difference is that spells are a class feature and magic items are magic items.
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684672The difference is that spells are a class feature and magic items are magic items.
True. But if wizards and company have an innate power supply and you cannot compensate with technology/magic items then you should not be surprised if things work out to focus on the people with power.
Iron man should be a viable response to Thor . . .
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684610I guess this thread has answered my question: powerful fighters need access to magic to function in a game with wizards and clerics.
Depends on edition.
In ad&d a high level fighter w/o Magic can absolutely be a threat (espcially if 18/x Str and dual-wielding Are involved, argh). Ditto High level thief or assassin actually (poison isn't Magic!) especially if higher level than the PCs. Backstab backstab Death attack.
Quote from: The Ent;684692Depends on edition.
In ad&d a high level fighter w/o Magic can absolutely be a threat (espcially if 18/x Str and dual-wielding Are involved, argh). Ditto High level thief or assassin actually (poison isn't Magic!) especially if higher level than the PCs. Backstab backstab Death attack.
That is true, and ironically most of the things that made this possible have quietly been excised. But a very tough rogue or warrior that gets the drop on a magic-user has an excellent chance.
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684672The difference is that spells are a class feature and magic items are magic items.
Weapon and armor proficiencies are a class features too. If the fighter must be naked the wizard must be too.
Quote from: Votan;684954That is true, and ironically most of the things that made this possible have quietly been excised. But a very tough rogue or warrior that gets the drop on a magic-user has an excellent chance.
Yeah, I remember my entire party Being terrorized by a thief once (lost a dual wielding fighter to that guy!). Backstab is very scary vs a MU in particular, as Are the worst poisons (the ones that do damage Even if you save, in particular).
Quote from: The Ent;685002Yeah, I remember my entire party Being terrorized by a thief once (lost a dual wielding fighter to that guy!). Backstab is very scary vs a MU in particular, as Are the worst poisons (the ones that do damage Even if you save, in particular).
I lost the Big Bad necromancer in a campaign I was running to my wife's halfling rogue. Double backstab with short swords blew him right into the negatives mid monologue. She did however roll almost max damage with both weapons.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;685050I lost the Big Bad necromancer in a campaign I was running to my wife's halfling rogue. Double backstab with short swords blew him right into the negatives mid monologue. She did however roll almost max damage with both weapons.
Cool!
Thieves/rogues shouldn't be underestimated. :cool:
Quote from: The Ent;685062Cool!
Thieves/rogues shouldn't be underestimated. :cool:
It was a good game, if I do say so myself. Guy came back as a lich the following year. And was phobic about halflings. But a year irl of running the same campaign and characters made it even easier to deal with him. Poor bastard got bum rushed by both barbarians and the paladin while the sorceress locked down his magic and the rogue broke into his vault to steal his phylactery and the ranger kept a pair of bad ass whights off her back.
All in all, very awesome, but I was totally burned out after.
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684262I might be the only one far enough in the series...but, uh, Tywin Lannister is not the BBEG of Game of Thrones.
Its Game Of Thrones. 90% of the cast are BBEGs.
RPGPundit
King Miraz of Narnia.
Quote from: jdurall;685762King Miraz of Narnia.
He wasn't very good at it though.
Voltan from Hawk the Slayer.
I'm not sure if the Bishop of Aquila from Ladyhawke counts, as he invoked a demonic curse on the lovers to keep them apart.
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684262I might be the only one far enough in the series...but, uh, Tywin Lannister is not the BBEG of Game of Thrones.
IMHO, I doubt Martin is going to have a BBEG in Game of Thrones. From what I can see, it's like watching the Wars of the Roses with a bunch of Shakespeare tossed in for good measure (King Lear, Hamlet, etc).
Nobody is really good, and nobody is really over the top evil.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;685821IMHO, I doubt Martin is going to have a BBEG in Game of Thrones. From what I can see, it's like watching the Wars of the Roses with a bunch of Shakespeare tossed in for good measure (King Lear, Hamlet, etc).
Nobody is really good, and nobody is really over the top evil.
The War of the Roses IS Shakespeare: Richard II, Henry IV part 1 and 2, Henry V, Henry VI parts 1, 2, and 3 and Richard III.
Shakespeare spent more time writing about the War of the Roses than any other subject.
Quote from: RPGPundit;685836The War of the Roses IS Shakespeare: Richard II, Henry IV part 1 and 2, Henry V, Henry VI parts 1, 2, and 3 and Richard III.
Shakespeare spent more time writing about the War of the Roses than any other subject.
True, but I was thinking of the historical version rather than the Shakespeare version, although Joffrey does have a lot in common with Richard III.
it's not High Fantasy, but Prince John and/or the Sheriff of Nottingham would do.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;685851it's not High Fantasy, but Prince John and/or the Sheriff of Nottingham would do.
Along those lines, Mordred.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;685849True, but I was thinking of the historical version rather than the Shakespeare version, although Joffrey does have a lot in common with Richard III.
I rather thought Joffery was Prince Edward (Henry the VI's son, whose mother was also extremely tone-deaf in her political moves). He seemed to have the right combination of being bloodthirsty, callow, and not all that impressive in battle.
There is even an Edward the IV character (who wins every battle, screws things up with an inappropriate marriage, and has two male relatives "killed" under mysterious and scandalous circumstances).
But one needs to be careful or they might start trying to guess who is Henry VII.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;685851it's not High Fantasy, but Prince John and/or the Sheriff of Nottingham would do.
Quote from: jdurall;685866Along those lines, Mordred.
These are great examples! The Sheriff and Mordred are classic BBEGs!
Quote from: flyerfan1991;685849True, but I was thinking of the historical version rather than the Shakespeare version, although Joffrey does have a lot in common with Richard III.
I think Joffrey is based on Prince Edward of Lancaster. The little shit viciously ordered the two old knights who'd guarded his father to be executed even as Henry VI begged for their lives (his mother was the one who ruled the roost, so they knights died).
Quote from: Votan;685944I rather thought Joffery was Prince Edward (Henry the VI's son, whose mother was also extremely tone-deaf in her political moves). He seemed to have the right combination of being bloodthirsty, callow, and not all that impressive in battle.
Correct.
QuoteThere is even an Edward the IV character (who wins every battle, screws things up with an inappropriate marriage, and has two male relatives "killed" under mysterious and scandalous circumstances).
Not sure if he was who you meant, but Robert Baratheon was very clearly the aging version of Edward IV. He was a 6'4" tall (a giant by his days' standard) adonis during his youth, and a great warrior-king, but over 10 years of peace he degenerated into an obese drunk who couldn't seem to escape the shadow of his past.
QuoteBut one needs to be careful or they might start trying to guess who is Henry VII.
Seems pretty obvious that this is Daenarys. My Dark Albion players have certainly made that connection already.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;686358I think Joffrey is based on Prince Edward of Lancaster. The little shit viciously ordered the two old knights who'd guarded his father to be executed even as Henry VI begged for their lives (his mother was the one who ruled the roost, so they knights died).
Probably. The War of the Roses was a pretty big inspiration, and has left its mark all over the series.
Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about Henry VI's kid.
Quote from: RPGPundit;686360Seems pretty obvious that this is Daenarys. My Dark Albion players have certainly made that connection already.
RPGPundit
Unless GRRM decides that part of the resolution for the series is to simply kill her at the end, causing her invasion to fail like the "good daughter" in King Lear.
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Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684610I guess this thread has answered my question: powerful fighters need access to magic to function in a game with wizards and clerics.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "access to magic."
To me, a classic BBEG is the warlord, whether he is the emperor of a distant land, the master of a barbarian horde, or a crusader at the vanguard of a dark army. He threatens the world, he creates carnage wherever he go, and he isn't a passing threat, and you're going to have to wade through gobs of minions and lieutenants to get to him.
He
might be a mage, but he doesn't have to be. History is loaded to the gills with these sorts of characters, and they rarely claimed to have magic powers, so I don't see why such a character in a high fantasy setting would need to have it.
Now, such characters are often (or often claim to be) blessed by higher powers, and they often wield (or claim to wield) blessed or enchanted items. The God of War might have blessed our crusader and demanded that he pacify all of the unrighteous of the world, and he might wield the Dark Blade of Tarth "which cuts through all lies." Historically, the do this sort of thing for propaganda, but that just means it has a good, mythic resonance that would feature nicely in a high fantasy game.
If that's still "access to magic," then I suppose the only reasonable BBEG in a high fantasy game without magic would have to be some kinda anti-magic crusader, because a BBEG would be stupid not to pick up a magic sword unless it would make him seem a hypocrite. So, some kind of atheist, anti-witchcraft crusader trying to purge the land of the supernatural might be sufficiently "clean" of magic to justify even the most stringent take on what "access to magic" means, but he'll probably replace that "magic" with technology or grit or some bizarre anti-magic field (which, itself, strikes me as a kind of magic).
I think one of the core elements of the BBEG, beyond acting as an ultimate antagonist for the hero, is that he can enact some kind of vast, sweeping change upon the world. All one needs to enact sweeping political or social change is excellent leadership, rhetoric, as well as political and strategic skills. The cunning general who outmaneuvers you with his hired magicians, assassins, spies and armies and, when confronted, turns out to be a top-notch fighter, would strike me as a classic BBEG who "doesn't have magic," as much as one can claim to "not have magic" in a high fantasy setting.
In most of the David gemmel stuff the Big Bad doesn't have magic but is a warlord in the styole of Gengis Khan, Caesar or Alexander the great.
The actual books blur into one but the BB in Druss and the one in the rigante books are like that.
Quote from: RPGPundit;686360Not sure if he was who you meant, but Robert Baratheon was very clearly the aging version of Edward IV. He was a 6'4" tall (a giant by his days' standard) adonis during his youth, and a great warrior-king, but over 10 years of peace he degenerated into an obese drunk who couldn't seem to escape the shadow of his past.
Interesting. I was thinking of Robb Stark, who was also a warrior king, married somebody that was inappropriate and lost the support of a major noble (Frey). His two brother were killed under mysterious circumstances followed by rumors (that turn out to be correct) that his two brothers survived Theon's perfidy.
But your version works well and I need to think about it. But it might well be a much closer fit.
The character I can't really place is Stannis.
Quote from: RPGPundit;686360Seems pretty obvious that this is Daenarys. My Dark Albion players have certainly made that connection already.
Interesting. She seems too nice to be Henry VII, but it is certainly possible and it would be a fascinating ending to the series.
Quote from: robiswrong;686361Probably. The War of the Roses was a pretty big inspiration, and has left its mark all over the series.
Yup. Much to my Dark Albion players' delight.
Edward of Lancaster died like a little bitch; let's hope Joffrey suffers a similar fate (no spoilers, please!).
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Quote from: flyerfan1991;686381Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about Henry VI's kid.
Unless GRRM decides that part of the resolution for the series is to simply kill her at the end, causing her invasion to fail like the "good daughter" in King Lear.
I wouldn't hold it past him. Maybe the real "henry tudor" is yet to come (say, if John Snow turns out to not be Ned's son after all, but rather the son of ned's sister with that Taegaryon prince who died).
RPGPundit
Quote from: Votan;686779Interesting. I was thinking of Robb Stark, who was also a warrior king, married somebody that was inappropriate and lost the support of a major noble (Frey).
Yes. Rob's wedding to that woman who's name escapes me now was DEFINITELY based on Edward of York's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville; and the subsequent shitstorm that followed; mind you in the historical version, Edward ended up winning out in that one (unlike Robb).
I mean that's the thing, its not a straight-up copy; most of the historical figures of the War of the Roses are spread out over various different game of thrones characters. The Earl of Warwick (the Kingmaker) is one-part Tywin Lannister and one-part Littlefinger, for example.
QuoteThe character I can't really place is Stannis.
Not sure if he's an exact match to anyone. I guess that of the three York brothers (Renly clearly being George Duke of Clarence), that would make Stannis Richard Crookback (and he certainly shares some characteristics with him, but not all - there's obviously a different side of Richard Crookback in Tyrion, for example).
In terms of sheer badassery he reminds me of the Duke of Exeter; who was a grandson of John of Gaunt and thus somewhere down the ways in the line of succession. Dude was captured by Yorkists right at the start of the War of the Roses, locked up in a castle, then fought his way out. He was known both for his extreme violence in war and his cruel nature (the torture instrument we know as "the rack" was at that time nicknamed "the duke of exeter's daughter"). He terrified the Yorkists.
He fought for Lancaster (and warwick) at the battle of barnet, already in his 40s, where as his men fled he stood (so the story goes) against hordes of Richard Crookback's men, and they cut him down with countless blows, and left him for dead. Only the sonofabitch actually survived and managed to drag himself through enemy territory to take (church) sanctuary just outside London. The king was forced to agree to spare him his life in exchange for his turning himself over.
He was imprisoned for three years until he was offered freedom in exchange for going to fight in France; but he was thrown overboard on Edward's (probably) orders on the boat crossing, because the York brothers were too scared he'd survive the French too.
I can kind of imagine Stannis doing that sort of shit.
Also, Exeter is a good counterpoint to anyone who says its not "realistic" for a high-level fighter to have 100 hp.
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Quote from: RPGPundit;687198Also, Exeter is a good counterpoint to anyone who says its not "realistic" for a high-level fighter to have 100 hp.
RPGPundit
Yes, because he was fighting them naked and not in a full plate :rolleyes:.
I suppose Lionheart and Pyrrhus were some 0 - level pussies since they both died from a single cheapshot.
I mean, especially Pyrrhus, a pot/roof tile is what, 1d3 improvised weaponry?
Quote from: RPGPundit;687198I mean that's the thing, its not a straight-up copy; most of the historical figures of the War of the Roses are spread out over various different game of thrones characters. The Earl of Warwick (the Kingmaker) is one-part Tywin Lannister and one-part Littlefinger, for example.
This is actually a strength of the series -- because the parallels are not exact you cannot just read the histories and know what is going to happen.
Of course, if the Tudor ending happens it is the uniting of the two rival lines. That is a very hard outcome to picture right now, especially as I cannot see Daenerys Targaryen entering another political marriage (nor is there a Baretheon scion that would be logically a possibility). Only Stannis is still alive, he has only a daughter, and he is already married.
One feature of the War of the Roses that I have been reading about is that several authors claim that it was a fairly low impact war on English prosperity. A lot of people died (see Towton) but there was evidence of technological and mercantile improvements (seems that the nobles killing each other off was good for the middle class).
That combination might make it a good time period for adventures.
No chance of Dark Albion coming out?
Quote from: Votan;687215No chance of Dark Albion coming out?
No one's volunteered to publish it.
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