Quote from: flyerfan1991;685821IMHO, I doubt Martin is going to have a BBEG in Game of Thrones.  From what I can see, it's like watching the Wars of the Roses with a bunch of Shakespeare tossed in for good measure (King Lear, Hamlet, etc).

Nobody is really good, and nobody is really over the top evil.

The War of the Roses IS Shakespeare: Richard II, Henry IV part 1 and 2, Henry V, Henry VI parts 1, 2, and 3 and Richard III.

Shakespeare spent more time writing about the War of the Roses than any other subject.

Quote from: RPGPundit;685836The War of the Roses IS Shakespeare: Richard II, Henry IV part 1 and 2, Henry V, Henry VI parts 1, 2, and 3 and Richard III.

Shakespeare spent more time writing about the War of the Roses than any other subject.

True, but I was thinking of the historical version rather than the Shakespeare version, although Joffrey does have a lot in common with Richard III.

it's not High Fantasy, but Prince John and/or the Sheriff of Nottingham would do.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;685851it's not High Fantasy, but Prince John and/or the Sheriff of Nottingham would do.

Along those lines, Mordred.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;685849True, but I was thinking of the historical version rather than the Shakespeare version, although Joffrey does have a lot in common with Richard III.

I rather thought Joffery was Prince Edward (Henry the VI's son, whose mother was also extremely tone-deaf in her political moves).  He seemed to have the right combination of being bloodthirsty, callow, and not all that impressive in battle.  

There is even an Edward the IV character (who wins every battle, screws things up with an inappropriate marriage, and has two male relatives "killed" under mysterious and scandalous circumstances).  

But one needs to be careful or they might start trying to guess who is Henry VII.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;685851it's not High Fantasy, but Prince John and/or the Sheriff of Nottingham would do.

Quote from: jdurall;685866Along those lines, Mordred.

These are great examples! The Sheriff and Mordred are classic BBEGs!

Quote from: flyerfan1991;685849True, but I was thinking of the historical version rather than the Shakespeare version, although Joffrey does have a lot in common with Richard III.

I think Joffrey is based on Prince Edward of Lancaster.  The little shit viciously ordered the two old knights who'd guarded his father to be executed even as Henry VI begged for their lives (his mother was the one who ruled the roost, so they knights died).

Quote from: Votan;685944I rather thought Joffery was Prince Edward (Henry the VI's son, whose mother was also extremely tone-deaf in her political moves).  He seemed to have the right combination of being bloodthirsty, callow, and not all that impressive in battle.  

Correct.

QuoteThere is even an Edward the IV character (who wins every battle, screws things up with an inappropriate marriage, and has two male relatives "killed" under mysterious and scandalous circumstances).  

Not sure if he was who you meant, but Robert Baratheon was very clearly the aging version of Edward IV.  He was a 6'4" tall (a giant by his days' standard) adonis during his youth, and a great warrior-king, but over 10 years of peace he degenerated into an obese drunk who couldn't seem to escape the shadow of his past.  

QuoteBut one needs to be careful or they might start trying to guess who is Henry VII.

Seems pretty obvious that this is Daenarys.  My Dark Albion players have certainly made that connection already.

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Quote from: RPGPundit;686358I think Joffrey is based on Prince Edward of Lancaster.  The little shit viciously ordered the two old knights who'd guarded his father to be executed even as Henry VI begged for their lives (his mother was the one who ruled the roost, so they knights died).

Probably.  The War of the Roses was a pretty big inspiration, and has left its mark all over the series.

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about Henry VI's kid.

Quote from: RPGPundit;686360Seems pretty obvious that this is Daenarys.  My Dark Albion players have certainly made that connection already.

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Unless GRRM decides that part of the resolution for the series is to simply kill her at the end, causing her invasion to fail like the "good daughter" in King Lear.

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Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684610I guess this thread has answered my question: powerful fighters need access to magic to function in a game with wizards and clerics.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "access to magic."

To me, a classic BBEG is the warlord, whether he is the emperor of a distant land, the master of a barbarian horde, or a crusader at the vanguard of a dark army.  He threatens the world, he creates carnage wherever he go, and he isn't a passing threat, and you're going to have to wade through gobs of minions and lieutenants to get to him.

He might be a mage, but he doesn't have to be.  History is loaded to the gills with these sorts of characters, and they rarely claimed to have magic powers, so I don't see why such a character in a high fantasy setting would need to have it.

Now, such characters are often (or often claim to be) blessed by higher powers, and they often wield (or claim to wield) blessed or enchanted items.  The God of War might have blessed our crusader and demanded that he pacify all of the unrighteous of the world, and he might wield the Dark Blade of Tarth "which cuts through all lies."  Historically, the do this sort of thing for propaganda, but that just means it has a good, mythic resonance that would feature nicely in a high fantasy game.

If that's still "access to magic," then I suppose the only reasonable BBEG in a high fantasy game without magic would have to be some kinda anti-magic crusader, because a BBEG would be stupid not to pick up a magic sword unless it would make him seem a hypocrite.  So, some kind of atheist, anti-witchcraft crusader trying to purge the land of the supernatural might be sufficiently "clean" of magic to justify even the most stringent take on what "access to magic" means, but he'll probably replace that "magic" with technology or grit or some bizarre anti-magic field (which, itself, strikes me as a kind of magic).

I think one of the core elements of the BBEG, beyond acting as an ultimate antagonist for the hero, is that he can enact some kind of vast, sweeping change upon the world.  All one needs to enact sweeping political or social change is excellent leadership, rhetoric, as well as political and strategic skills.  The cunning general who outmaneuvers you with his hired magicians, assassins, spies and armies and, when confronted, turns out to be a top-notch fighter, would strike me as a classic BBEG who "doesn't have magic," as much as one can claim to "not have magic" in a high fantasy setting.

In most of the David gemmel stuff the Big Bad doesn't have magic but is a warlord in the styole of Gengis Khan, Caesar or Alexander the great.

The actual books blur into one but the BB in Druss and the one in the rigante books are like that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;686360Not sure if he was who you meant, but Robert Baratheon was very clearly the aging version of Edward IV.  He was a 6'4" tall (a giant by his days' standard) adonis during his youth, and a great warrior-king, but over 10 years of peace he degenerated into an obese drunk who couldn't seem to escape the shadow of his past.

Interesting.  I was thinking of Robb Stark, who was also a warrior king, married somebody that was inappropriate and lost the support of a major noble (Frey).  His two brother were killed under mysterious circumstances followed by rumors (that turn out to be correct) that his two brothers survived Theon's perfidy.  

But your version works well and I need to think about it.  But it might well be a much closer fit.  

The character I can't really place is Stannis.  

Quote from: RPGPundit;686360Seems pretty obvious that this is Daenarys.  My Dark Albion players have certainly made that connection already.

Interesting.  She seems too nice to be Henry VII, but it is certainly possible and it would be a fascinating ending to the series.

Quote from: robiswrong;686361Probably.  The War of the Roses was a pretty big inspiration, and has left its mark all over the series.

Yup. Much to my Dark Albion players' delight.

Edward of Lancaster died like a little bitch; let's hope Joffrey suffers a similar fate (no spoilers, please!).

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