Quote from: Imp;683673Prince Humperdinck?

Only because he fired Miracle Max.

I might be the only one far enough in the series...but, uh, Tywin Lannister is not the BBEG of Game of Thrones.

There's lots of definitions of BBEG.  Sometimes in a campaign the 'first BBEG' turns out to be working for a bigger BBEG, and so on until you reach the 'ultimate BBEG' that's been pulling the strings from the beginning.

A non-magical ultimate BBEG could work, but usually it's easier to give them magical powers.  Magical powers don't really need to be explained very well, and it clearly makes them special.  If a BBEG is REALLY POWERFUL, it helps if he's not doing something that Joe Farmer could do (like being very persuasive).

But there are examples of non-magical lieutenants.

The Dungeons & Dragons movie (I know, terrible, right) had a warrior that was the main antagonist for most of the movie.  He and a bunch of soldiers were running around chasing the 'good guys'.  Jeremy Irons was the REAL BBEG, but he didn't really get involved in the mundane stuff, and thus for most of the 'campaign', the players would have been involved with a non-magical foil.  

This movie also has a Thief Guild leader who serves to antagonize the players.  While he is not the BBEG, he certainly could have been.  If I were building a campaign around the movie (which I would never do), I'd have the first few levels focus on 'becoming a thief' with the obstacle of an antagonistic thieves' guild.  

Lots of campaigns feature a 'power behind the throne' that can be magical or non-magical.  The example that most quickly springs to mind is the Disney movie Aladdin where Jaffar was controlling the Sultan; Lord of the Rings did a very similar thing with Wormtoungue/Grima.  While those examples are both somewhat magical, it's very possible to do the same thing without obvious magic.  Usually we say a 'witch has put a spell on him' if an old king is spending a fortune on a young attractive queen, but in the real world that kind of thing happens with no 'real' magic.  A campaign could have the BBEG be no more than a self-absorbed socialite using sex to bankrupt a kingdom and 'punish' disliked people.  It practically writes itself as a '3 Musketeers' type of game.

In general, though, a non-magical BBEG is going to work best in a low-magic game.  If someone doesn't have access to magic, they're unlikely to have much in the way of magical defenses.  

If the young, nubile queen is using her sexual wiles to manipulate the king and the captain of the guard, she can be a real threat, but all it takes is someone dominating her and suddenly you have a new 'magical' BBEG.

It's pretty darn hard to think of any non-magic high fantasy BBEGs.

First one that comes to mind is the BBEG in Osamu Tezuka's Dororo, who doesn't use magic (but got his great political and military power as a result of making a deal with 48 demons - does that count as magic power? It doesn't actually help him during combats and such, it seems to have been a one time deal.). OTOH that's historical fantasy (medieval Japan) but there seems to be demons crawling all over the place...and the hero is essentially a psionics/telepathy/ESP using cyborg (what with his father trading 48 of his bodyparts to the 48 demons...).

Well, the concept of BBEG is antithetical to everything Miyazaki's done, but Lady Eboshi in Princess Mononoke is non- and anti-magical and she at least initially comes across as that sort of character. Again, not exactly high fantasy...

QuoteI might be the only one far enough in the series...but, uh, Tywin Lannister is not the BBEG of Game of Thrones.

Presumably that seat goes to "whoever leads the White Walkers", yeah?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;684416If the young, nubile queen is using her sexual wiles to manipulate the king and the captain of the guard, she can be a real threat, but all it takes is someone dominating her and suddenly you have a new 'magical' BBEG.

and a new crusade at awfulpurple.

Quote from: CRKrueger;684449and a new crusade at awfulpurple.

It's like the new Rule 34.  If you think it, it's probably already under way.

Quote from: CRKrueger;684449and a new crusade at awfulpurple.

Evil Stepmother is a fantasy trope.  I don't mind if crusaders try to tell me it is bad/wrong or portrays women in a negative light and/or casts sexual liberation as evil - I feel confident that I can include things in my games that I disagree with personally but are still part of a 'living world'.  

Oppression exists in the real world.  In heroic fantasy, PCs will need a chance to overcome oppression, so it must also exist in the fantasy world.  If my fantasy world(s) looked like a future Utopia, there'd be no reason to have adventures set there.

I'd like to point out in response to numerous earlier posts that A Song of Ice and Fire is not high fantasy.

It doesn't have a cosmological conflict of Good and Evil as its centerpiece, it doesn't have black-and-white morality, it doesn't have an identified Big Villain, and the resolution doesn't hinge on non-materialistic factors. It isn't high fantasy.

"In a world with dominant power X, how about a BBEG that has zero access to power X?"

The question does not take into account the nature of power. It would be the same if it was a high sci-fi world, high fantasy, high intrigue, high cheap energy, etc. all the way into the ridiculous such as high sex in a decadent world, or high trickery in cartoon world. The dominant modus of power will have to have representation in the BBEG's reach, otherwise BBEG is not an independent holder of power and likely just a functionary of a real BBEG.

Now worlds can have multiple layers of power. And different characters can compete via more than one domain of power. And they can contest withing a domain of power.

But when one power becomes the dominant paradigm the true movers and shakers will have to engage it somehow. The only issue is the exchange rate between various other power domains and the dominant power domain. i.e. How much backroom intrigue or crowd charisma or military might one must trade for World Defining Power X. When a power comes to define the world, to be without access means you are either a tool to those who have it, or a speed bump along the way.

I guess this thread has answered my question: powerful fighters need access to magic to function in a game with wizards and clerics.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684610I guess this thread has answered my question: powerful fighters need access to magic to function in a game with wizards and clerics.

Compete, not function.

And access to magic is a tricky thing. Personally I love the ideas from Black Company/Malazan/EarthSea, the whole idea of true caster's name shutting down magic for them.

QuoteCompete, not function.

Depends on how you view the class.  If you take a fighter in 3e and strip him of his magic items, he won't be able to function against anything but low-CR monsters.  If you give him his magic items, he'll be able to function, but not particularly well.

I suppose my overall idea is that I'm going to be handing out artifacts to non-casters in my games.  (I don't mean that as snark, I'd like to see a fighter with a sword that lets him control undead, or a rogue who can summon spirits.)

Any conspiratorial mastermind like the character Littlefinger from Game of Thrones.  He never uses magic, or even fights well, just uses his cunning.  I'm not arguing that Littlefinger is the BBEG in the Game of Thrones but he could possibly be one, and may even be the final "Bad Guy" depending on how the next books go. Btw, I've read all the books.  If you are looking for a villain that doesn't use magic and is not a warrior then an archtype based on Littlefinger is a good idea.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684610I guess this thread has answered my question: powerful fighters need access to magic to function in a game with wizards and clerics.

Eh except that in the kind of high fantasy that Premier outlines (and many similar kinds of stories), the protagonist usually doesn't have any magic powers, except often by the macguffin he's sent to retrieve and wield against The Dark One, in the most stereotypical version of high fantasy. That's right square in the D&D fighter concept (except, often, the protagonist in these stories is far from the best swordsman around).