Quote from: Lunamancer;968768Well, I don't know that anything happens "due to a single die roll." ...

It seems like the real* gripes are:
1) That a single party member can die without taking the entire party with him,

Hold Person, Fear, and Disintegrate come to mind in the single die roll category.

It's not that they die or are incapacitated and no one else is, but that the one character dies or is incapacitated and they have nothing to do for the next couple of hours. Now, I would say that exercising proper teamwork and foresight should address most of these concerns. For a lot of things there are counter-measures. If there aren't, it might be to the DM's advantage to consider what those counter-measures are so that the PCs can pursue them.

Quote from: Baron Opal;968788Hold Person, Fear, and Disintegrate come to mind in the single die roll category.

I'm still not sure why the number of die rolls is the end-all-be-all measuring stick here. In the asp example, it was shown there are a minimum of two additional die rolls involved, one of which would give the character the *chance* to act pre-emptively. The casting times for the above spells are 5, 4, and 6 segments respectively. That virtually guarantees some intervening act is possible IF the player chooses it. If anything that gives more of an opportunity to play the encounter, despite calling for fewer dice rolls, than the asp.

Quotebut that the one character dies or is incapacitated and they have nothing to do for the next couple of hours.

Next couple of hours? If combat is really taking that long, it sounds like the problem is too many dice are being rolled to resolve things, not too few.

Quote from: Lunamancer;968809Next couple of hours? If combat is really taking that long, it sounds like the problem is too many dice are being rolled to resolve things, not too few.

I think that was in reference to dying because of a single roll, and then waiting until the party gets back to civilization such that their character is raised or replaced.

Quote from: Lunamancer;968809I'm still not sure why the number of die rolls is the end-all-be-all measuring stick here. In the asp example, it was shown there are a minimum of two additional die rolls involved, one of which would give the character the *chance* to act pre-emptively.

I think that's the key thing. It is easier to accept a forced, protracted downtime, regardless of what it is, when you had some chance to mitigate the result. I actually find this to be a greater issue at lower levels than higher ones. When you get to high level, those issues can often be addressed within the party so the adventure doesn't have to end there.

The only time I had an issue with save-or-die is when my character, in a level 5-7 party, picked up some treasure with contact poison on it. He failed his save and died. It took 3-4 weeks in a weekly game for there to be an opportunity for me to bring another character in. I didn't wait that long, and found another game. This was also a group I didn't have strong personal ties to, and had only gamed with them 2-3 times before. Still, facing sitting out a real month sucked.

I can handle chilling for a couple hours, as long as it wasn't a regular thing.

Quote from: Haffrung;968691Did you play after Essentials fixed the monster math by substantially increasing monster damage and reducing monster HP?

I never bought Essentials. I ended up cutting all HP (player and monster) by 1/3, but it didn't really fix the issue of players analyzing every turn to death. TBH everyone I know who started with 4e, myself included, has a tendency to overanalyze. You know you're dealing with ex-4e players when they spend 10 minutes arguing over whether it's time for the fighter to use Action Surge or not.

Quote from: OmegaNow I get to innocently ask "What is Essentials"? I assume from various mentions that its something like a Basic set for 4e?

Essentials was an attempt to reboot 4e while pretending it was really a 100% compatible Basic Set. I thought it was a Reader's Digest version of 4e and saw no reason to get it, as I already had most of the 4e material. It was a poorly-timed, badly-advertised, ill-conceived product, but apparently it was a better game than 4e if you understood it really wasn't the same game any more.

Quote from: Baron Opal;968820It took 3-4 weeks in a weekly game for there to be an opportunity for me to bring another character in.

Who the hell runs D&D and doesn't do the classic, "Oh look who's just around the corner! It's some guy with a sword looking for an adventuring party just like yours! Mr Opal, please introduce your new character."

Even if the party has no spearholders to be promoted, and the DM doesn't want to break some conception of believability, in all but the most contrived scenarios, there could be something like the opponents' prisoner cells can house one extra fellow who's fit enough to hold a sword and adventure alongside the heroes. So yeah, there's a level of 'lack of DM helping out' factor in this example.

Yeah, there was a failure of imagination there. The DM was really disappointed that I didn't just come to hang out and watch.

Seriously?

I was a bit surprised the cleric didn't have some kind of slow poison or something. He was a member of a snake cult, and all. Ah, well.

Quote from: Baron Opal;968820It took 3-4 weeks in a weekly game for there to be an opportunity for me to bring another character in.

That's just crazy. What does it take to bring a replacement character in? It's incredibly easy to rationalize.  Tell me there weren't players who showed up for weeks just to watch everybody else play the game while waiting for the party to get somewhere the DM would allow a new PC to join up.

Quote from: Lunamancer;968809Next couple of hours? If combat is really taking that long, it sounds like the problem is too many dice are being rolled to resolve things, not too few.

Last night, in the AL D&D 5e game, I had a character fully die (she was level 2) due to a bad die roll (singular) and the players, being in the middle of a dungeon, took several hours to get out, due to random monsters, a couple of triggered events, which kept the dead player out of the game for about 1 and half, because there was no way to bring them back until they got back into town.

Quote from: Robyo;967721We all know the "sweet spot" in D&D (or retroclones) is 1-6 or so. But what about high level?

S&W:WB and OD&D work fine at 9th-12th. I max campaigns at 10th though.

I'd argue the OD&D "sweet spot" is 4th to 7th.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;968832Who the hell runs D&D and doesn't do the classic, "Oh look who's just around the corner! It's some guy with a sword looking for an adventuring party just like yours! Mr Opal, please introduce your new character."

Agreed.

Back in the day, we usually ran 2 PCs each in AD&D for exactly this reason. It was your damn job to keep one of your clowns alive for the game session, and even then we regularly "found" wandering new heroes in the dungeons as needed. Or you played a monster who allies with  the party.

Not. Rocket. Science.

My comment about levels 1-6 being the sweet spot was mainly because of the popularity of hacks like E6 and E8. And in my experience it has been lower level D&D which seemed most thrilling. At those levels the PCs can still be challenged without too much DM work, and character death is quite possible. Honestly, in 30+ years of my D&D experience I've never caused or been a part of a TPK. I really don't know how those happen, except for blind stupidity on the part of players, or maybe sadistic DMs.

I admit I'm surprised at the love showered for 5e in this thread. Been playing OSR stuff most recently, but I ran a 5e campaign up to 17th level (before the group fell apart) and I admit it was fun. But I would not consider the powers and abilities of the PCs to be particularly epic. I thought 4e had a good grasp on that with Epic Destinies. Players that turn into avatars? Yes please.

However, the party in my 5e game did manage to steamroll most of my encounters, including a one-round kill of Darth Vader (they had wondered into a tech dungeon inside the astral plane). So I had to ratchet up the HP and damage of my encounters, while previously having tailored monsters according to the guidelines in the DMG. I've read elsewhere that those rules really aren't adequate, at any level.

When I run 5e again, it will be a low-magic version utilizing the classes in the the Adventures in Middle Earth Player's Guide. I think that system will add quite a bit of grittiness to the normal D&D tropes.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;968869Last night, in the AL D&D 5e game, I had a character fully die (she was level 2) due to a bad die roll (singular) and the players, being in the middle of a dungeon, took several hours to get out, due to random monsters, a couple of triggered events, which kept the dead player out of the game for about 1 and half, because there was no way to bring them back until they got back into town.

This is usually where as a DM I have the player help me with dice rolls or other stuff on those occasions where there isnt a good excuse to introduce a new PC. Or the player is waiting for the group to drag the body back to someone who can raise them. As a player I've had to do that a few times for others when my character ended up one of the last standing. Ive spent time with my PC down too. Especially in BX and AD&D.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;968869Last night, in the AL D&D 5e game, I had a character fully die (she was level 2) due to a bad die roll (singular) and the players, being in the middle of a dungeon, took several hours to get out, due to random monsters, a couple of triggered events, which kept the dead player out of the game for about 1 and half, because there was no way to bring them back until they got back into town.

If you insist on waiting until they get back so your character can be revived, that's on the player.
If the DM insists on you waiting to introduce a new character in the dungeon, that's on the DM.
If you're all ok with it either way, there isn't an issue.

In the current campaign it was easy for new characters to come in, because BtB in AD&D1e if you're taken below 0HP then you take a week to recover no matter what, so they kept going into the dungeon and then leaving it for a week and a bit (travel time). It was all taking weeks and months, and the guy who sent them there just sent any adventurers who came his way up to them to ask what the fuck they were doing and why it was taking so long.

I just assumed the new character followed their tracks and the trail of dead monsters, blood, viscera and dropped coins.
"Hi guys! Barnacle sent me to... say, what happened to that guy?"

The exception was the PC who appeared in a room where they'd killed owlbears and orcs, he was hogtied, naked but for a gimp mask, smeared in pig fat. Was it to braise him for dinner, or something more disturbing? Nobody wanted to know. They freed him and he charged into the next room and was cut down by orcs.