The issue, for me, when it comes to the high level spells is that by banning them, but not limiting the other caster type (healer) is not fair to the Wizard player.  Thing is, healing/recovery spells are mandatory at that high a level, there are too many monsters that suddenly have abilities that bypass hit points completely.

I've met a few different types of DMs who took issues with the capabilities of higher level magic.  Some simply preferred grittier settings, and some very much disliked that higher level play made it more difficult for a DM to have their arms around the possibilities of what a player did.

I like high level AD&D play - 14+.  I haven't been able to play high level characters developed organically nearly as much as low level play simply by virtue of the time investment.  I also like to DM high level play, but I think it requires an improvisational style.  

The higher level the campaign, the looser the prep must be for a particular session.  Because tremendous changes to the status quo - character, geographical, or otherwise - can happen in a single roll (or be negated just as easily).  That takes a certain personality type to enjoy, on the part of both DM and player.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;968071The issue, for me, when it comes to the high level spells is that by banning them, but not limiting the other caster type (healer) is not fair to the Wizard player.  

I must have missed the part that said you have to only limit the magic-user or else the Ghost of Gygax will drain your levels.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;968071Thing is, healing/recovery spells are mandatory at that high a level, there are too many monsters that suddenly have abilities that bypass hit points completely.

I must have also missed the part that required you to use those monsters or else the Ghost of Arneson will scatter four-sided dice like caltrops across your carpet.

All your comments indicate you are or play with a Dungeon Master who lacks the confidence to make the game his own.

Quote from: Dumarest;968094I must have missed the part that said you have to only limit the magic-user or else the Ghost of Gygax will drain your levels.

Are you for real?  Didn't you say you haven't played D&D in a while?  Why are you even posting something you clearly don't understand.

Quote from: Dumarest;968094I must have also missed the part that required you to use those monsters or else the Ghost of Arneson will scatter four-sided dice like caltrops across your carpet.

All your comments indicate you are or play with a Dungeon Master who lacks the confidence to make the game his own.

Yeah, this tells me you have no clue what you're talking about.  You have less relevance than Gronan and his dick swinging.

Quote from: Dumarest;968094All your comments indicate you are or play with a Dungeon Master who lacks the confidence to make the game his own.

Here's the thing about Brady.   He's never played any version of D&D earlier than 2e, and even then not that much, so he has absolutely no clue how all these 3e problems mean absolutely nothing in earlier editions.  Basically when he talks about older editions, he starts spewing stuff he's heard thirdhand from teh intarwebz all over the forum and people eventually come in to point and laugh at him.

Feel free to use logic, common sense, facts, quotes - it won't matter.  You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, and no opinion Brady has about anything "Old School", games, playstyles, players, etc was reached by reason.

Other than that, he's alright.

BTW had a fight last night in my 5e Wilderlands game where an 18th level Barbarian (& Wizard 8 sidekick) was quite seriously challenged by one CR 5 Shambling Mound. On Sunday in my 5e Varisia game two CR 5 Shambling Mounds likewise put up a strong fight against a Barbarian-13, Wiz-12/Rog-1, Druid-14 and Warlock-11.

I can't imagine that in any earlier edition, and it really brought home how well designed 5e is for ease of GMing at high level. I could challenge high level PCs ca 18th in my Classic D&D game, but that was with multiple high level NPCs or super-powerful monsters like Nightwalkers, Shambling Mounds would be a speed bump. Same in 3e. In 4e a 10+ level disparity makes a monster unusable and I'd have had to use a horde of shambling minions or Super Mound the Level 18 Solo Ultimate Shambler.

I hear that D&D 4e played as well at high levels as it played at low ones, though that didn't help much if you don't like how it plays;).

Quote from: S'mon;968146BTW had a fight last night in my 5e Wilderlands game where an 18th level Barbarian (& Wizard 8 sidekick) was quite seriously challenged by one CR 5 Shambling Mound. On Sunday in my 5e Varisia game two CR 5 Shambling Mounds likewise put up a strong fight against a Barbarian-13, Wiz-12/Rog-1, Druid-14 and Warlock-11.

I can't imagine that in any earlier edition, and it really brought home how well designed 5e is for ease of GMing at high level. I could challenge high level PCs ca 18th in my Classic D&D game, but that was with multiple high level NPCs or super-powerful monsters like Nightwalkers, Shambling Mounds would be a speed bump. Same in 3e. In 4e a 10+ level disparity makes a monster unusable and I'd have had to use a horde of shambling minions or Super Mound the Level 18 Solo Ultimate Shambler.

5e's math definitely makes monsters have a longer time on the shelf as truly dangerous, but original shamblers were bad too.  If they hit twice, bam you're engulfed.  No save, no way out until the Shambler is killed and you die in 2d4 rounds.

Quote from: AsenRG;968160I hear that D&D 4e played as well at high levels as it played at low ones, though that didn't help much if you don't like how it plays;).

It slows down at each Tier. My current level 2 4e game has 30 minute battles. The Epic Tier battles in my last 4e campaign took 2-3 hours.

Quote from: Dumarest;968056There's no reason you can't just decree a Howardesque campaign world where all the PCs will be human. [End of Devil's Advocate role.]

This is exactly what the AD&D Conan module/Settings do. Human only. No clerics. Magic user PCs are rare to none and magic items are few and far between.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;968071The issue, for me, when it comes to the high level spells is that by banning them, but not limiting the other caster type (healer) is not fair to the Wizard player.  Thing is, healing/recovery spells are mandatory at that high a level, there are too many monsters that suddenly have abilities that bypass hit points completely.

But this is the same problem as limiting magic weapons. If the PCs dont have something to counter a monster with then why the hell are you throwing monsters they cant even harm at them? If theres no recovery magic then level draining monsters and instakill effects should be few and far between too. Or at least alternatives on hand. Even if thats just negotiation or running.

Its alot like Gurps in that the things you prune can have an impact on the things you should be tossing at the PCs.

And no. "The Wandering monster table told me to kill them!" is never an excuse.

So again its more a problem of the DM than the system. Enough people have been doing just fine at high levels to show that yes it does work.

Quote from: Dumarest;968094I must have also missed the part that required you to use those monsters or else the Ghost of Arneson will scatter four-sided dice like caltrops across your carpet.

There have been documented cases of this happening... :eek:

Quote from: S'mon;968146BTW had a fight last night in my 5e Wilderlands game where an 18th level Barbarian (& Wizard 8 sidekick) was quite seriously challenged by one CR 5 Shambling Mound. On Sunday in my 5e Varisia game two CR 5 Shambling Mounds likewise put up a strong fight against a Barbarian-13, Wiz-12/Rog-1, Druid-14 and Warlock-11..

The engulf ability of Shambling mounds made them a danger even in AD&D to fairly well off PCs if the things can get in reach. Thats a big if sometimes but oy do those things put the fear into players.

And theres nothing more ignominious than having your 9th level PC eaten by a giant frog.

Very much a situational thing. And it goes the other way round too. Sometimes what should be a threat somehow fails to be.

6th level and higher MU/Wizard spells fundamentally change the style of play. D&D becomes rocket-tag. Some people enjoy that style. Many - especially DMs - don't.

Quote from: Omega;968172But this is the same problem as limiting magic weapons. If the PCs dont have something to counter a monster with then why the hell are you throwing monsters they cant even harm at them? If theres no recovery magic then level draining monsters and instakill effects should be few and far between too. Or at least alternatives on hand. Even if thats just negotiation or running.

Its alot like Gurps in that the things you prune can have an impact on the things you should be tossing at the PCs.

And no. "The Wandering monster table told me to kill them!" is never an excuse.

So again its more a problem of the DM than the system. Enough people have been doing just fine at high levels to show that yes it does work.

A lot of monsters don't have a resistance, but have an insta-'kill' power.