Quote from: Christopher Brady;968234A lot of monsters don't have a resistance, but have an insta-'kill' power.

Which one of those require high level cleric spells? Medusas and stone to flesh (actually that's a wizard spell)? Just general insta-kills and raise dead?

I think that there is something of a an argument behind what you are saying, I just don't think it has emerged (and you're going to go off into the weeds with your usual punching buddies instead of making it). Something along the lines of: If you want to remove the "teleports, raise dead, passwall, big summons etc" of high level wizards, then in all fairness, you remove the high level cleric spells. If you do that, you remove (or modify) the monsters which you need those high-level cleric spells to remedy/revive. If you do that, are you really playing high level D&D, and even if you are, have you really removed the high-level-ness of it, and you're just playing with more hp and a better to-hit chance. Something like that?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;968254Which one of those require high level cleric spells? Medusas and stone to flesh (actually that's a wizard spell)? Just general insta-kills and raise dead?

I think that there is something of a an argument behind what you are saying, I just don't think it has emerged (and you're going to go off into the weeds with your usual punching buddies instead of making it). Something along the lines of: If you want to remove the "teleports, raise dead, passwall, big summons etc" of high level wizards, then in all fairness, you remove the high level cleric spells. If you do that, you remove (or modify) the monsters which you need those high-level cleric spells to remedy/revive. If you do that, are you really playing high level D&D, and even if you are, have you really removed the high-level-ness of it, and you're just playing with more hp and a better to-hit chance. Something like that?

Why are you converting his incoherent, poorly worded rambling into something that actually makes sense?

Quote from: Omega;968172If the PCs dont have something to counter a monster with then why the hell are you throwing monsters they cant even harm at them?



And no. "The Wandering monster table told me to kill them!" is never an excuse.

If those monsters exist in the world, you're bound to encounter them. Possibly even before you're ready for them. Nobody said you had to stand toe-to-toe and fight it out. If you can't hurt it, run.


It seems like people don't understand that monsters with immunity exist so you encounter them when you can't hurt them. Those monsters are far more interesting if you run into them when you can't hurt than when you can.

A monster that can only be hit with +2 weapons (or whatever) is no different than any other if you only introduce them when your group has +2 weapons.

You encounter them when you can't hurt them, you run away, and then you figure out how to overcome them another way.

Those encounters are essentially puzzles, not bigger orcs.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;968267If those monsters exist in the world, you're bound to encounter them. Possibly even before you're ready for them. Nobody said you had to stand toe-to-toe and fight it out. If you can't hurt it, run.


It seems like people don't understand that monsters with immunity exist so you encounter them when you can't hurt them. Those monsters are far more interesting if you run into them when you can't hurt than when you can.

A monster that can only be hit with +2 weapons (or whatever) is no different than any other if you only introduce them when your group has +2 weapons.

You encounter them when you can't hurt them, you run away, and then you figure out how to overcome them another way.

Those encounters are essentially puzzles, not bigger orcs.

There seems to be a type of player and DM group that believes every encounter should be winnable and as a result it never occurs to the players that their PCs should avoid combat or flee. I'm not sure where that started; it may just be different personality types and game preferences. But they just don't seem to understand the "random" part of random encounters means it may be a crippled gnome begging for alms or it may be a level-sucking undead horde and you can't win them all and shouldn't expect to be able to.

Quote from: Dumarest;968266Why are you converting his incoherent, poorly worded rambling into something that actually makes sense?

Because, regardless of what you think of Christopher, he isn't just a troll out to pick a fight. There's some point he's trying to make, and I find it more fruitful find out what that point is and then discuss the merits of said concept, rather than the usual battle royale and calling of names.

Quote from: CRKrueger;967776B/X-BECMI was very playable at the Companion Level 15+, with the Test of the Warlords series of adventures.

AD&D was also very playable in the teens.  It took forever to get there but was worth it.

With all the widgets in WotC D&D, it's much harder to play at highest levels, but like anything else, once you get proficient with the sheer number of options and have internalized the rules, 3.5 was manageable.

Let me be another voice to recommend B/X-BECMI. Good news! The Rules Cyclopedia is still easily available, and the Adventurer Conqueror King System is doing great things with this framework, and specifically goes into cool domain management play if you're figuring that your characters would be leaving the dungeons by the time that they're getting powerful.

Quote from: S'mon;968167It slows down at each Tier. My current level 2 4e game has 30 minute battles. The Epic Tier battles in my last 4e campaign took 2-3 hours.

Yeah 4e was great up to about 10th time wise. We found it slowed down a lot 11th - 20th. didnt get past that

I've played up to the high 20's just fine with AD&D.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;968254Which one of those require high level cleric spells? Medusas and stone to flesh (actually that's a wizard spell)? Just general insta-kills and raise dead?

I was thinking of level drain (Wraiths and Vampires in AD&D), or in later editions, creatures that attack a stat directly (3.x's woefully miscalculated Shadows.)  And apologies, when I speak of insta-kill, I mostly mean abilities that bypass HP, which if unlucky CAN badly hurt PC's.

A lot of those types of abilities hit things that don't scale as fast as HP, or don't scale at all for the most part.  Remove Curse, Regeneration, Lesser and Greater Restoration all these are high level clerical spells.

Quote from: CRKrueger;967776B/X-BECMI was very playable at the Companion Level 15+, with the Test of the Warlords series of adventures.

AD&D was also very playable in the teens.  It took forever to get there but was worth it.

With all the widgets in WotC D&D, it's much harder to play at highest levels, but like anything else, once you get proficient with the sheer number of options and have internalized the rules, 3.5 was manageable.

Agreed In my experience keeping track of every thing that's possible is the big trick with 3.5 if you can do it the game functions fine but it can be hard I fully think limiting some spells can be smart though.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;967954As an interesting thought experiment, I wonder what a D30 based D&D might look like.

It would probably break at about 1.5 to 1.7 ish if you did a good job as big numbers with out any major changes if you make to big a change to the basic formula well we are probably talking a different game.

Quote from: Dumarest;968266Why are you converting his incoherent, poorly worded rambling into something that actually makes sense?

Well my sister once said and I quote "would it kill him to elaborate on any thing" take that for what you will.

Quote from: Dumarest;968281There seems to be a type of player and DM group that believes every encounter should be winnable and as a result it never occurs to the players that their PCs should avoid combat or flee. I'm not sure where that started; it may just be different personality types and game preferences. But they just don't seem to understand the "random" part of random encounters means it may be a crippled gnome begging for alms or it may be a level-sucking undead horde and you can't win them all and shouldn't expect to be able to.

It depends there is a middle ground there just because I can win doesn't mean that I want to fight it if for no other reason because I don't what to expend the resources and leave my self that vulnerable.
Or even if I can win  is fighting this fight practical.

Quote from: S'mon;967920I would say that non-spellcaster high level 5e is a thing of beauty. It does "swords against sorcery" far better than any other edition.
High level spellcasters do present some issues if you're hoping to run 4e-style dramatic cinematic combat, they do have spells like Banishment that can immediately shut down any* individual opponent , and unlike high level 1e-2e those spells usually work.

*except maybe Legendaries, but even there there are some spells that don't allow a save so Legendary Resistance is ineffective. There's a Cleric-5 touch attack 'Contagion' which can inflict 'Slimy Doom', causing a foe who takes damage to be Stunned for 1 turn. With Cleric + combat PC that's an unbeatable lockdown. Even a Legendary will take 3 rounds to blow it off, and then only by spending all their 3 Legendary Resistances on it. Then the Cleric can just do it again.

My next campaign is going to have something akin to DCC magic corruption and (probably) backfire. I want magic to be rarer and scarier. Clerics may be out altogether, as I want a setting without direct interference from Gods.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;968353My next campaign is going to have something akin to DCC magic corruption and (probably) backfire. I want magic to be rarer and scarier. Clerics may be out altogether, as I want a setting without direct interference from Gods.

Maybe something like this... https://lowfantasygaming.com/2016/05/29/dark-dangerous-magic/

Quote from: Psikerlord;968354Maybe something like this... https://lowfantasygaming.com/2016/05/29/dark-dangerous-magic/

Cool. Checking it out now!

Quote from: Willie the Duck;968284Because, regardless of what you think of Christopher, he isn't just a troll out to pick a fight. There's some point he's trying to make, and I find it more fruitful find out what that point is and then discuss the merits of said concept, rather than the usual battle royale and calling of names.

He's not just a troll, and sometimes when anything remotely connected to Old School crosses his path, he might have a point he's trying to make, but don't kid yourself...if it's anything remotely connected to early forms of D&D, he's definitely trying to pick a fight.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;968333(3.x's woefully miscalculated Shadows.)

I think they assumed that you'd have a cleric.  With the cleric they're a bit tough for their CR, without a cleric they're freakin' crazy for their CR.  (you might be okay if you have bunches of holy water)