Quote from: Lunamancer;973767Incidentally, consider an elven mage, having hit max level at level 11. All the years this character has just to devote to building magic items. As we've discussed here a bit, as levels get higher, rounds get fewer, and casting times get longer, devices are the key to a mage's potency. It makes it hard, then, for me to think the elf is at a disadvantage here.

Are you saying that having a level cap of 11 is not a disadvantage?  Can a human mage not just as easily decide to spend time making magic items? Aren't the resources used to adventure not really the same as those used to craft items?

Quote from: Skarg;973818Are you saying that having a level cap of 11 is not a disadvantage?  Can a human mage not just as easily decide to spend time making magic items? Aren't the resources used to adventure not really the same as those used to craft items?

The resource in question is time. An Elf has a lot more of it.

Quote from: Telarus;973817We had so many elements of it that it kinda worked (the Elf Warrior/Scout had his own mountain kingdom of warrior-cult elves, the Human Sky Raider/Elementalist has her own airship and crew, etc, etc.), but I think it would have been even better had I been thinking of the setting as a wargame campaign, not just a series of high-level pre-scripted adventures with some of my own mixed in between them.

Yeah, that certainly fits my experience. High level play works when the PCs each have their own significant power bases, and some reason to work together. But pre-scripted adventures are often not a great model - admittedly my own Runelords of the Shattered Star campaign is mostly pre-scripted adventures, though I'm trying to keep it as open as possible and the PCs have acquired some resources, eg Fort Rannick, and a small army of Gray Maidens. But my sandbox Wilderlands game with PCs as leaders and rulers (who still go down dungeons sometimes too) is probably a better default model.

Quote from: Dumarest;973809So, this time tomorrow?

I'm glad you asked, Eager Young Space Cadet!

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GARY LOSES CONTROL OF HIS GAME
   When one writes a game – pretty much anybody – you form a mental picture of “how the game is played.”  This is natural and logical; you’re writing the damn thing, after all, of course you’re going to have ideas about how it plays.  Dave and Gary had definite ideas on the subject of how Blackmoor, and later D&D, should be played.

   The highest level PC in Greyhawk during the pre-publication era was Rob Kuntz’ fighter, “Lord Robilar.”  Robilar made it to the lofty level of 14!  This was a mind-blowing, earth-shattering level of achievement.  In roughly that same time period I made it to 9th level, and was exceedingly pleased!  Rob played mostly solo and knew how to calculate risks to a nicety, which is how he reached that exalted level.

   (On the other hand, Dave always thought Gary was way too generous with experience!  It was not rare in Blackmoor for characters to take more than a year to reach 5th or 6th level!)

   Some differences in play style are merely matters of taste.  However, when a game designer… of ANY game… presupposes certain elements of play style, there can be mechanical consequences of going outside those suppositions.  For most games this isn’t really a problem; nobody seriously expects somebody to try to use helicopters in a game of chess, for instance.  But the deliberately open-ended nature of the D&D rules made it virtually certain that there would be people playing the game in a way not envisioned, or intended, by its creators.

   What x number of consenting adults do around their own gaming table is their business.  However, as D&D became more and more popular, more and more people wanted “official recognition” of the way they played.  Starting a relatively short time after the original 1974 publication, TSR was bombarded by letters and articles.  A good number of these submissions were things that were just plain outside the parameters of the game Gary and Dave had envisioned.  Level inflation and “too generous” referees occupied a large part of this mail, and in-person contacts at the still-small GenCon.  Gary and Dave had created a game where a 4th level fighter truly was a Hero, and people were complaining that the game didn’t include spell lists for 35th level magic users.

   Tone matters.  An article that begins, “Here are some things we invented that we think are fun” will be received differently from an article that states “This game has stupid limits and we did something better.”  Such is simply human nature, and part of its result was a rather defensive attitude on the part of TSR, rather than, “Well, we designed the game to do such and thus, so if you are doing something else, good luck and let us know how it works.”  Given a defensive posture on the part of the game’s publisher, those who wanted to radically change the game increased the stridency of their tone, which increased the defensiveness of TSR, etc, etc, etc.  This is the background for the 1976 release of D&D “Supplement IV,” Gods, Demi-Gods, and Heroes.(GDGH)

   Part of D&D had always been the fun of incorporating things we loved from literature.  Since virtually all of us read not only SF and fantasy but any myths and legends we could get our hands on, it’s not surprising that we thought the idea of a guidebook for mythologies in D&D was a good idea.  Besides, D&D had the notion of “gods” and “temples” and “clerics,” so it made sense to discuss who they were “temples” and “clerics” OF.
   
There was another purpose as well.  To quote Tim Kask in the Foreword,
      
“This volume is something else, also: our last attempt to reach the “Monty Hall” DM’s.  Perhaps now some of the ‘giveaway’ campaigns will look as foolish as they truly are.  This is our last attempt to delineate the absurdity of 40+ level characters.  When Odin, the All-Father has only (?) 300 hit points, who can take a 44th level Lord seriously?”
   

   As the saying goes, “Nice try.”  The effect was pretty much exactly not this.

   Years later, I was talking with FASA’s Forrest Brown about why their Star Trek starship combat game had turned from “The USS Enterprise is the most powerful ship in space” to “The USS Enterprise is a third rate also-ran.”  Forrest said, “We’re selling games to wargamers.  Guns sell.  Big guns sell more.”  And indeed, this same mentality was already in effect, though I don’t think anybody at TSR really realized it, or realized quite how it would manifest.  When Gods, Demi-Gods, and Heroes was published the vast majority of the D&D audience didn’t look at it as a statement of “this is as high as you can get;” they looked on it as essentially another Monster Manual.  The Iron Law of Player Characters triumphed:  “If you stat it, they will kill it.”

   I can’t say with any certainty how much GDGH influenced the tone of AD&D first edition with its notion that “such campaigns become so strange as to be no longer “AD&D”.”(DMG, p. 7)  What I can say is that it marked a moment when D&D became, in effect, bigger than its creators.  It was no longer part of the “wargaming” community, the Castle and Crusade Society, the International Federation of Wargamers, a venue where a game’s author could say, “This is how you play the game,” and be taken as authoritative.

   The game had exceeded the reach of its creators.

So the question I guess I must ask, and I want to state that I'm asking in earnest:

Do 'you' (as in anyone who reads the Gronan post above) think it's good or bad that Gygax 'lost control' of his game?

Not good, not bad.  Just "is."

It was inevitable if it ever sold more than its original 1000 copies.  I just think it's interesting to be able to put a finger on a spot and say "here (in my opinion) is where it happened."  (or, more likely, here is where we see that it has happened)

And that's a really good question.  Thanks for asking it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;973830So the question I guess I must ask, and I want to state that I'm asking in earnest:

Do 'you' (as in anyone who reads the Gronan post above) think it's good or bad that Gygax 'lost control' of his game?

I think it comes down to this...

"However, as D&D became more and more popular, more and more people wanted 'official recognition' of the way they played."

Gary is often cast as having a "my way or the highway" attitude. But the truth is he wanted people to play however they chose; that the context of his attempt to preserve the integrity of D&D was to defend against those who wanted their own ways to be recognized as official. As to whether I think it was good for Gary to lose control of his game in a general sense, I would say he never intended to control it, nor did he. Do I think it's a good thing that Gary lost control of his game to these narcissists specifically? Absolutely not.

That's just silly. My 45th-level elf magic-user uses helicopters in chess matches all the time.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;973830So the question I guess I must ask, and I want to state that I'm asking in earnest:

Do 'you' (as in anyone who reads the Gronan post above) think it's good or bad that Gygax 'lost control' of his game?

I don't think it's bad at all that people can use RPGs to express their personal creativity.

I think it can be frustratingly counter-productive that they insist on calling their personalized and significantly modified RPG "D&D" (presuming it does have material departures from D&D as-written).  Because then any person who tries "D&D" with them and doesn't like it often goes away from that experience thinking whatever they just did is the sum total of what "D&D" is, and it colors their reaction to later being offered a chance to play "D&D".  Whereas if they were offered a chance to play "Dave's personal fantasy RPGx" and didn't like that, they wouldn't necessarily transfer that negative reaction to "D&D" as a whole.

Quote from: EOTB;973838I don't think it's bad at all that people can use RPGs to express their personal creativity.

I think it can be frustratingly counter-productive that they insist on calling their personalized and significantly modified RPG "D&D" (presuming it does have material departures from D&D as-written).  Because then any person who tries "D&D" with them and doesn't like it often goes away from that experience thinking whatever they just did is the sum total of what "D&D" is, and it colors their reaction to later being offered a chance to play "D&D".  Whereas if they were offered a chance to play "Dave's personal fantasy RPGx" and didn't like that, they wouldn't necessarily transfer that negative reaction to "D&D" as a whole.

If I could go back in time to give advice, and my advice would be taken...

In a perfect world, the original D&D set would be advertised as a "How to Build a Fantasy Wargame Campaign."  The CHAINMAIL combat system would be more thoroughly integrated, the system Dave Arneson used would be included, and the "Alternate Combat System" Gary developed would be used.

Then the book would say "Here are three possible ways to resolve combat.  Or you can use one of your own."

Then you'd have CHAINMAIL magic, and then Dave Arneson's magic system from Blackmoor, and then Gary's adaptation of Vance's system.

Then the book would say "Here are three possible ways to do magic.  Or you can use one of your own."

Et cetera.

Probably not practical, but the best match for the intentions of the creators.

Quote from: Dumarest;973837That's just silly. My 45th-level elf magic-user uses helicopters in jetan matches all the time.

Fixed yer typo.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;973862Fixed yer typo.

You're just showing off your Barsoomian knowledge now.

Deities & Demigods was absolutely Monster Manual 2. We were in high school and I make no apologies. Killing gods with insano-level PCs was lots of fun.

Quote from: Lunamancer;9718542) Can we ditch the 5E magic item assumptions without breaking the system?

What magic item assumptions? Theres no such thing in 5e. They even discourage magic shops. Though do have mechanics for shopping for those that want it. Magic items in 5e are fewer and farer between now.

Quote from: Omega;973910What magic item assumptions? Theres no such thing in 5e. They even discourage magic shops. Though do have mechanics for shopping for those that want it. Magic items in 5e are fewer and farer between now.

The assumption that in 5E they would be fewer and lesser power than 1E. Not my assumption. Others brought that into this thread.