Quote from: Longshadow;966523I think the whole "end game"is an abandoned concept. I think the expectation is to to adventure to 20th then start over. Bye Birthright

I've never had a player make it anywhere near 20th level. Even if their PCs don't die due to suicidal overconfidence and poor planning, they usually get antsy to play a different game long before the "end game" would be an issue. And I, of course, go through phases where I lose interest in a game or setting for a while before I want to come back to it again, and usually it's easier just to start anew with fresh characters in a novel place.

I've never felt a huge desire to play in Middle-Earth, but it has a lot more depth to it than Krynn. It isn't that surprising to me there are more people that want to have their own adventures in it.

Quote from: Dumarest;966536I've never had a player make it anywhere near 20th level. Even if their PCs don't die due to suicidal overconfidence and poor planning, they usually get antsy to play a different game long before the "end game" would be an issue. And I, of course, go through phases where I lose interest in a game or setting for a while before I want to come back to it again, and usually it's easier just to start anew with fresh characters in a novel place.

Also when you were playing D&D, 1-20 wasn't 20 sessions.

Quote from: CRKrueger;966540Also when you were playing D&D, 1-20 wasn't 20 sessions.

Also true. I don't play D&D these days but, back when I did, we dicked around so much and got sidetracked and got ourselves killed so often, 20 levels would've taken years...especially since we usually just left our dead where they fell and "rolled up a  new guy" because oftentimes we wanted to try a different class or personality or backstory. We were never into seeking out resurrections.

Quote from: Dumarest;966531Is that really what the Dragonlance modules were? Wow. :eek:  I only ever saw them on the shelf and had no interest anyway...now I have even less interest.

Actually you could play the modules with you're own PCs, I played the first few modules as a teen with our own party. The later modules open up significantly in terms of PC agency where they can kill major NPCs, die and lose major battles, essentially blowing saving the world.

Take the claims you read about DL online with a grain of salt. Most of those commenting have never read anythimg beyond the first few modules, if that, let alone having played them. It also sounds like a lot of people who orginally played them were obsessed trying to make the modules agree with the novel 'canon' which of course who destroy any game from TOR to Doctor Who.

The 3e releases, contrary to what SteveMitchell claimed earlier overtly try to make the original modules more sandboxy and address the criticisms of lack of PC agency. Not saying anyone should rush out and play the original modules which are definitely flawed but they're flawed because they were experimenting and kept trying different things.

I think Dragonlance Adventures is a good setting hardcover. Does DL offer anything other fantasy settings don't? Beyond the schools of White, Black and Red wizards and the way their magic is effected by the phases of the same-coloured moons, whicn I think is pretty cool, not really but it is more distinctive and textured than a lot of Greyhawk and FR, even though I prefer to set my adventures in Greyhawk. Oh and it does have the continent of Taladas which is pretty awesome with a kingdom of Minotaurs but it is almost its own setting.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;966447The content has been for the GM to tell a novel, instead of run an RPG. .

This is just ignorant beyond compare. Theres nothing in the original Dragonlance Adventures book that shoves forward "play a novel".

Try again please.

Quote from: Dumarest;966531Is that really what the Dragonlance modules were? Wow. :eek:  I only ever saw them on the shelf and had no interest anyway...now I have even less interest.

Quote from: CRKrueger;966535There were a couple that were "between novel" modules, one was a setting supplement, one was a wargame to play the War of the Lance, but yeah, the majority of them were playing the literary characters through the events of the novels.  At least for the DLXX series, there were a few more series later that weren't novel-based.

Ive got DL1 and actually you can start it with non-novel characters. And it reats like about any other module. The main difference is it has some timed events. Things that will happen at certain days. The rest is more reminiscent of Keep on the borderland and similar modules where you can wander about and certain locations have stuff going on and then theres the main adventure locale.

Really its no more a railroad than any other module where the players buy into whatever quest is the main focus.

DL2 is a bit more linear. But again the PCs are free to roam some and they can even totally screw up and crash the campaign. sure the GM is given tools to nudge the players in the desired direction. but they are free to say no or to have on their own gotten themselves very off the track.

Again this is not much different from a standard module which might give some events or whatnod to keep the players on the adventure they signed on for. DL is just a little more heavy handed.

DL11 is indeed a wargame. Reminiscent of SPI or Microgamings hex and counter wargames.

Quote from: Dumarest;966531Is that really what the Dragonlance modules were? Wow. :eek:  I only ever saw them on the shelf and had no interest anyway...now I have even less interest.

The original adventures definitely fall on the rail-roady side of any dividing line. However, their notoriety has grown with every retelling. And, as Voros mentions, they were experiments. Regardless, I am not sure that the totality of the Dragonlance setting is any way inherently more railroad-encouraging than any other setting. The only game books I ever had were DL Adventures, which seems roughly equivalent to Oriental Adventures (some altered rules crunch, some setting material), and the Taladas box set, which is really quite good (but honestly doesn't tell you much about the rest of DL because it's theoretically on the same planet, but is absolutely a completely separate setting). Neither seemed to me to specifically facilitate a certain playstyle.

Quote from: Voros;966614The 3e releases, contrary to what SteveMitchell claimed earlier overtly try to make the original modules more sandboxy and address the criticisms of lack of PC agency. Not saying anyone should rush out and play the original modules which are definitely flawed but they're flawed because they were experimenting and kept trying different things.

Well that's good to hear.  You'll note that what I said earlier is that I had not even read the 3E/d20 version, as by then I had given up entirely on DL.  I was going strictly off of reputation, and said so.

Edit:  And any inclination to see for myself was effectively killed every time Weis or Hickman made any public statements about how to run a game.  It may be my own personal limitation that I can't get past that, but nonetheless it now colors everything they are associated with.

No problem just didn't want to refer to you as 'some guy earlier in the thread.' Didn't intend to call you out or anything and missed that you were reporting hearsay.

I do think Dragonlance is dead. Every attempted reboot just fucked up things worse.

They could maybe save Taladas, but that's a pretty niche setting.

Quote from: RPGPundit;967066I do think Dragonlance is dead. Every attempted reboot just fucked up things worse.

They could maybe save Taladas, but that's a pretty niche setting.

What did you think was the matter with the Weiss 3e books?

Quote from: Voros;967087What did you think was the matter with the Weiss 3e books?

I had a glance at one of the 3e DL books and it came across as kinda... empty? Not as totally void as Saga DL. But it lacked the spark of DL Adventures. There was also something off with the art. But at a glance the tone and writing just didnt feel right.

I would think Dragonlance could succeed with a 5e conversion of the original modules published as a hardback (with original Elmore art & a few new pieces by him), and some GM advice on easing back on the railroading. As others have indicated, the problem with DL is it's essentially a series not a setting.

That's exactly what the Weis 3e hardcovers are but for 3e not 5e obviously. DL Adventures and the 3e boxset are fine settings.