It's kind of a dealbreaker beyond peeking at the rules and giving the starter set a try, so I'd like to know.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;763206It's kind of a dealbreaker beyond peeking at the rules and giving the starter set a try, so I'd like to know.
I don't believe so; certainly the Ogre no longer has it or the pre-gen fighters.
That's good to hear.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;763209That's good to hear.
Why the concern? It was one of three or four possible tracks a fighter could take and it only did STR bonus damage. It wasnt like the Barbarian who could get a second attack if he missed, or the mage who can gain a trick where if a cantrip misses or is saved vs, it still does half damage.
Fighter getting a measly 1-4 damage depending on STR is small time.
Or are you outraged that the fighter is getting short changed? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Omega;763231Why the concern? It was one of three or four possible tracks a fighter could take and it only did STR bonus damage. It wasnt like the Barbarian who could get a second attack if he missed, or the mage who can gain a trick where if a cantrip misses or is saved vs, it still does half damage.
Fighter getting a measly 1-4 damage depending on STR is small time.
Or are you outraged that the fighter is getting short changed? :rolleyes:
I never got the outrage either it's not a general fighter ability like action surge or second wind.
Probably because even though the abstract definition of HPs allows for such a thing, the implementation used was ludicrous.
yay, are we gonna have this argument again?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;763246yay, are we gonna have this argument again?
No need to argue:
Quote from: Sacrosanct;762290I will admit damage on a miss rubs me the wrong way a bit, but I'm not going to get all worked up about it because I can sort of rationalize it thus:
It only applies to great weapons. If you've ever held up a shield and got hit by someone wielding a large weapon, even if they didn't break through your defenses per se, it still hurt your arm.
That doesn't explain compete whiffs though.... If it stayed in (and my understanding is that it's removed), I'd houserule it to where if you missed by 5 or more, you don't apply the damage.
We agree it was implemented poorly, we might quibble as to how poor, but it's out I think so...
oh, I wasn't talking about you and me. The argument in general
I always rationalized that a miss in D&D wasn't always a complete whiff, but an abstraction of things like weapons glancing off armour or shields and parrying. So I can see why, even if a targets armour, shield or sword parry could stop an attack the defender is still reeling back from the impact or effort.
At-will auto-damage at first level (whether it's the Essentials style Slayer or magic missile cantrip seen in the playtests, both thankfully seemingly aborted) put the adwrongfu in badwrongfun.
F that noise.
Quote from: Necrozius;763251I always rationalized that a miss in D&D wasn't always a complete whiff, but an abstraction of things like weapons glancing off armour or shields and parrying. So I can see why, even if a targets armour, shield or sword parry could stop an attack the defender is still reeling back from the impact or effort.
That's my take also, it makes a lot more sense when you split HP into wounds/vitality.
Well on Thursday the character creation rules get released online. You can check whats in that for nothing.
Quote from: Omega;763231Why the concern? It was one of three or four possible tracks a fighter could take and it only did STR bonus damage. It wasnt like the Barbarian who could get a second attack if he missed, or the mage who can gain a trick where if a cantrip misses or is saved vs, it still does half damage.
Fighter getting a measly 1-4 damage depending on STR is small time.
Or are you outraged that the fighter is getting short changed? :rolleyes:
Whoop I needed a 10 to get to free parking I rolled a 9 guess that means I make it because I'm the car
wait what
Damage on misses just seems stupid to me. Even to the point where, I like 13th Age, but am not going to play it because it's literally that fucking stupid.
Quote from: Brad;763269Damage on misses just seems stupid to me. Even to the point where, I like 13th Age, but am not going to play it because it's literally that fucking stupid.
You do know it's not in anymore?
Quote from: Necrozius;763251I always rationalized that a miss in D&D wasn't always a complete whiff, but an abstraction of things like weapons glancing off armour or shields and parrying. So I can see why, even if a targets armour, shield or sword parry could stop an attack the defender is still reeling back from the impact or effort.
But that is what HPs are for.
You spend HPs to mitigate a wound by making it glance off armour or a sheild so you get a bit fatigued as a result.
If I stand dead still and you miss me why am I fatigued?
Quote from: Brad;763269Damage on misses just seems stupid to me. Even to the point where, I like 13th Age, but am not going to play it because it's literally that fucking stupid.
I'll use small words: there is no such thing as "damage on a miss."
If you did damage, it's not a miss.
Attacks with auto damage do not miss.
If you make the attack roll, you do normal damage.
If you don't make the attack roll, you do the auto damage.
Anyone who isn't a complete drooling moron can figure this out.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;763297I'll use small words: there is no such thing as "damage on a miss."
If you did damage, it's not a miss.
Attacks with auto damage do not miss.
If you make the attack roll, you do normal damage.
If you don't make the attack roll, you do the auto damage.
Anyone who isn't a complete drooling moron can figure this out.
So how does in work. Are you saying that Dave the 2 handed sword guy simply can't miss. If he tries to hit he will always do so even if its a glancing blow.
How do you reconcile that with Frank the guy that is really good at dodging blows?
Quote from: jibbajibba;763305So how does in work. Are you saying that Dave the 2 handed sword guy simply can't miss. If he tries to hit he will always do so even if its a glancing blow.
How do you reconcile that with Frank the guy that is really good at dodging blows?
I love it. How about a rogue ability that allows them to automatically negate opponent strength bonuses to damage? How would that work?
,
Quote from: JasperAK;763311I love it. How about a rogue ability that allows them to automatically negate opponent strength bonuses to damage? How would that work?
They somewhat already do. Like I said rogues are pretty much right behind fighters in a pure combat situation. It's why I find the cantrip discussion ridiculous.
On the one hand say I'm running an Evoker the combat mage.....so I'm basically playing tag so anybody gives me an opening to drop the hammer. Meanwhile the fighter is daring anybody to actually fight and the cleric is just making everyone else better Then you have the Rogue..moving and sneak attacking and moving and sneak attacking while making your hits half damage ON A HIT.
It's actually very fun if you think about it.:)
Quote from: Marleycat;763319They somewhat already do. Like I said rogues are pretty much right behind fighters in a pure combat situation. It's why I find the cantrip discussion ridiculous.
Why does the consistency of the rules that make magic work in the setting have any relationship to fighters being able to hit stuff or rogues being able to dodge?
Quote from: jibbajibba;763320Why does the consistency of the rules that make magic work in the setting have any relationship to fighters being able to hit stuff or rogues being able to dodge?
Maybe so there might be pure magic users? Why not multi-class then? And consistency is such a loaded and personal term sir especially when talking about Dnd.:)
I can understand folks having problems with a system built around damage on a missed roll, like 4e. I can get, I guess, 3e players having issues with the great weapon fighter ability because that edition of the game really had a paradigm of fighters = mundane, casters = Masters of the Universe, as well as a 1 roll = 1 swing.
But I've never quite understood why folks who play TSR D&D would have a problem with the one ability. One would assume that they'd be less given to the HP = Meat idea (and ergo, 1 successful attack = application of physical damage). As Old Geezer has often put it, HP = HP. Nor would they be married to the idea of 1 roll = 1 swing of the sword and especially not beholden to the idea that missed attack roll = complete and utter whiff, no contact made.
So, big strong guy wielding big two-handed weapon: if you're within 5 feet when he attacks, you're going to lose some HP. It's a glancing blow, or avoiding the attack took something out of you, or at the least, you've lost a bit of luck and fortune. Whatever -- there are any number of ways to describe what the loss of HP represents (including the old stand-by, "You've lost X hp").
Personally, whenever I hear newer players bitch about how boring or unrealistic the old combat rules were, I tell them, "In old school D&D, combat is resolved to quickly get on with the game, not simulated for your amusement."
I dunno. I grew up on B/X, BECMI, and 1e, so that's just how I've always viewed things, and why the GWF ability and Second Wind don't bug me. I've never been able to wrap my head around why my fellow TSR D&D players have such a problem with it.
It's not the "damage on a miss" that's the problem, it's the implementation that's stupid. Having it always work based on type of weapon is silly.
Quote from: CRKrueger;763332It's not the "damage on a miss" that's the problem, it's the implementation that's stupid. Having it always work based on type of weapon is silly.
That I can understand. Do you have a good solution beyond just banning it? Because it makes sense to me in relation to how I view HP in Dnd without using an alternate system.
Simplest way would be doing something like Sac said, you have to "miss" by 5 or less to get a "fatigue hit". If you wanted something more complex you could do 5-Dex bonus for the range, so really Dextrous people dodged more and got less "fatigue hits" on them. Even more complex would be to base it on AC you get from armor, as "misses" on armor would be more likely to fatigue you. At that point though, you're on your way to a full-blown fatigue system and Wounds/Vitality.
So miss by 5 or less, or 5-Dex bonus or less seems easiest.
Quote from: CRKrueger;763332It's not the "damage on a miss" that's the problem, it's the implementation that's stupid. Having it always work based on type of weapon is silly.
No it's not it's damage on a miss.
you spend HPs to mitigate wounds. When you loose HPs you are taking fatigue etc etc just like when you take he great sword blow on your shield.
So the fact of HPs means that you don't take damage on a miss because of the force of the blow etc because that is what HPs are already doing.
If you are saying that the great blow always connects but for a low range of those hits it is really just buffettign damge then in D&D terms you shoudl say " A great Blow gets +8 to hit, but only deals Str bonus damage if it doesn't exceed the target to hit bonus my more than 8"
Now when you write it out like that it becomes obvious that the great blow shouldn;t have that effect cos a +8 to hit is really silly :)
Quote from: CRKrueger;763336Simplest way would be doing something like Sac said, you have to "miss" by 5 or less to get a "fatigue hit". If you wanted something more complex you could do 5-Dex bonus for the range, so really Dextrous people dodged more and got less "fatigue hits" on them. Even more complex would be to base it on AC you get from armor, as "misses" on armor would be more likely to fatigue you. At that point though, you're on your way to a full-blown fatigue system and Wounds/Vitality.
So miss by 5 or less, or 5-Dex bonus or less seems easiest.
I was thinking a W/V system but up the wounds because armour isn't DR in 5e. So say you have a fighter with D10 HP + CON.....you set your base CON + plus ability adder and half or third your random HP as wounds and the rest is vitality. Meh, it won't work at low levels. Somehow if you can set your wounds to 25% of your vitality is what I mean. But something more like 40% is better for a typical baseline.
Your typical fighter with 100 HP would have 40/60 for wounds/vitality.
To me... whether or not DoaM is a "big deal" or not depends on how what a roll of the dice represents.
If there is a stated correspondence of 1 attack roll = 1 swing of the sword, then yes, "damage on a miss" is a big conceptual problem and makes no sense.
If, however, 1 attack roll = the best of a number of opportunities, then I'd argue that DoaM is pretty sensible, though I'd prefer if only the fighter got it. In my mind, this represents the notion that getting into a hand-to-hand fight with a fighter is a super bad idea: he is the guy whose specialty is stabbing you, and even if he can't stab you super well (makes a hit and rolls full damage), he is still going to be able to fuck you up a little bit at a time (misses and deals some, significantly smaller, amount of damage anyway), just by virtue of being that good at it.
For rogues and such archetypes that need to be established as being really good at dodging, I would give them some kind of "if an attack that missed you would deal damage, it deals no damage instead" ability. Similar to evasion from 3e, but more broad. And this ability I would give only to rogue-type characters, to help establish that they are the sneaky-dodgy types that get away with pissing off fighter-types and can get away unscathed.
Quote from: GnomeWorks;763341To me... whether or not DoaM is a "big deal" or not depends on how what a roll of the dice represents.
If there is a stated correspondence of 1 attack roll = 1 swing of the sword, then yes, "damage on a miss" is a big conceptual problem and makes no sense.
If, however, 1 attack roll = the best of a number of opportunities, then I'd argue that DoaM is pretty sensible, though I'd prefer if only the fighter got it. In my mind, this represents the notion that getting into a hand-to-hand fight with a fighter is a super bad idea: he is the guy whose specialty is stabbing you, and even if he can't stab you super well (makes a hit and rolls full damage), he is still going to be able to fuck you up a little bit at a time (misses and deals some, significantly smaller, amount of damage anyway), just by virtue of being that good at it.
For rogues and such archetypes that need to be established as being really good at dodging, I would give them some kind of "if an attack that missed you would deal damage, it deals no damage instead" ability. Similar to evasion from 3e, but more broad. And this ability I would give only to rogue-type characters, to help establish that they are the sneaky-dodgy types that get away with pissing off fighter-types and can get away unscathed.
Correct and it's only for a singular fighting path no less. No Dex builds could ever use it in a realistic game.
Quote from: GnomeWorks;763341If there is a stated correspondence of 1 attack roll = 1 swing of the sword, then yes, "damage on a miss" is a big conceptual problem and makes no sense.
If, however, 1 attack roll = the best of a number of opportunities, then I'd argue that DoaM is pretty sensible, though I'd prefer if only the fighter got it.
Also this is the sort of thing that makes more sense with long rounds (like the very, very long AD&D round) and less sense with short rounds (like the very short 3e round).
Additionally you get weird shit like "oh no a wasp, kill it, send in Bulmir, he's sure to kill it with his greataxe" or perhaps more commonly people using their THF fighters to finish off badly wounded enemies instead of trying to turn the guys still standing into meat chunks.
Anyway I'm pretty sure there are other bonuses to give and I would not want to use damage on a miss except, perhaps, for strange cases like flaming weapons or something like that.
Quote from: Imp;763346Also this is the sort of thing that makes more sense with long rounds (like the very, very long AD&D round) and less sense with short rounds (like the very short 3e round).
Additionally you get weird shit like "oh no a wasp, kill it, send in Bulmir, he's sure to kill it with his greataxe" or perhaps more commonly people using their THF fighters to finish off badly wounded enemies instead of trying to turn the guys still standing into meat chunks.
Anyway I'm pretty sure there are other bonuses to give and I would not want to use damage on a miss except, perhaps, for strange cases like flaming weapons or something like that.
But with long AD&D rounds the guy weilding the 2h Sword should be taking fatigue damage cos those things are bloody heavy :)
What is supposed to be the point or purpose of the mechanism, game-design-wise?
Why introduce as basic something so different from the game as known from 1974-2007? Wasn't 4e lesson enough?
On the other hand, is it modular enough to ignore without screwing up things any more than, say, ignoring weapon vs. armor type mods in Greyhawk and 1st PHB?
In the playtest, "Str damage on miss with two-handed weapon" was the effect of choosing Great Weapon as a Fighting Style. That is a class feature of Fighters, Paladins and Rangers. You could choose Archery, Defense, Shield Block or Two Weapon Fighting instead.
So yes, you can just choose Defense and take that +1 AC.
Quote from: jibbajibba;763339No it's not it's damage on a miss.
you spend HPs to mitigate wounds. When you loose HPs you are taking fatigue etc etc just like when you take he great sword blow on your shield.
So the fact of HPs means that you don't take damage on a miss because of the force of the blow etc because that is what HPs are already doing.
If you are saying that the great blow always connects but for a low range of those hits it is really just buffettign damge then in D&D terms you shoudl say " A great Blow gets +8 to hit, but only deals Str bonus damage if it doesn't exceed the target to hit bonus my more than 8"
Now when you write it out like that it becomes obvious that the great blow shouldn;t have that effect cos a +8 to hit is really silly :)
I don't quite get what you're trying to say here. I can say, though, that the classic D&D rules do not, except in special cases, tell whether a given blow hit or missed. "Miss" is just a colloqial term for a dice-roll that - from one perspective - "fails" to give a desired result.
Thus, a "miss" on a saving throw might give double damage or otherwise worse consequences from the victim's point of view.
The rules produce outcomes with very, very little concern for intermediary process details. They are for people who find T&T too much number-crunching. If you want bloody
RuneQuest, do yourself a favor and get the real thing!
Quote from: CRKrueger;763245Probably because even though the abstract definition of HPs allows for such a thing, the implementation used was ludicrous.
This I can at least understand and I am guessing it is the OPs reason.
My point is its small time compared to what some of the other classes are getting.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;763266Whoop I needed a 10 to get to free parking I rolled a 9 guess that means I make it because I'm the car
wait what
Monopoly. GTA edition.
Quote from: jibbajibba;763305So how does in work. Are you saying that Dave the 2 handed sword guy simply can't miss. If he tries to hit he will always do so even if its a glancing blow.
How do you reconcile that with Frank the guy that is really good at dodging blows?
Apply the Lealaps vs the Teumessian Fox solution.
Quote from: Phillip;763356What is supposed to be the point or purpose of the mechanism, game-design-wise?
Why introduce as basic something so different from the game as known from 1974-2007? Wasn't 4e lesson enough?
On the other hand, is it modular enough to ignore without screwing up things any more than, say, ignoring weapon vs. armor type mods in Greyhawk and 1st PHB?
I always thought it was a concession to those who felt that felt any sort of character failure wasn't "fun". It was a participant ribbon of the mechanics. You miss, starting sniffling, and then one of the [strike]soccer[/strike] dungeon moms announces it's ok, you still did damage, are awesome, and they're taking everyone out for orange slices and pizza after the session.
Probably not. But that's how it felt.
Quote from: Zachary The First;763382I always thought it was a concession to those who felt that felt any sort of character failure wasn't "fun". It was a participant ribbon of the mechanics. You miss, starting sniffling, and then one of the [strike]soccer[/strike] dungeon moms announces it's ok, you still did damage, are awesome, and they're taking everyone out for orange slices and pizza after the session.
Probably not. But that's how it felt.
Then the 5th level Evocer does 1d8 to the 16STR 2h fighters 3 damage... Resume weeping because the mage might do more than 3 damage. (well average 4. but whos counting?)
But it is, far as we know. Removed.
Wonder if the evocer got theirs yanked too?
Quote from: Phillip;763361I don't quite get what you're trying to say here. I can say, though, that the classic D&D rules do not, except in special cases, tell whether a given blow hit or missed. "Miss" is just a colloqial term for a dice-roll that - from one perspective - "fails" to give a desired result.
Thus, a "miss" on a saving throw might give double damage or otherwise worse consequences from the victim's point of view.
The rules produce outcomes with very, very little concern for intermediary process details. They are for people who find T&T too much number-crunching. If you want bloody RuneQuest, do yourself a favor and get the real thing!
Its not complicated.
HPs are a mix of skill fatigue luck etc.
Agree so far ?
When the 10th level fighter gets hit with a Double headed war axe for 16 damage he doesn't take a blow full to the face and just shrug it off. He deflects the blow takes most of it on his armour etc etc so in effect he is spending HPs to avoid taking an axe to the face.
Agree so far?
So if the blow hits the PC looses some fatigue, stamina expends some of those HPs but is still on his feet. So if the blow "misses" and he still takes HP damage and we assume that this is the same sort of thing he dodges expending energy or he takes the blow on his shield or armour. So a miss is exactly the same mechanically as a hit except the "damage" or HP loss is less.
Agree so Far?
So really what you are saying here is a great blow mightly swing is in effect getting a +8 to hit but if he doesn't succeed by 8 more than the target's AC its just a glancing blow dealing Str damage bonus.
So the rule is really saying 2 handed weapons get +8 to hit but often hit for a feeble blow.
Now that sounds a bit daft to me. Especially if we replace the armoured fighter with an unarmoured wizard say.
That was my point nothing more complex.
Agree so far? No.
Hit points indicate whether a figure is (barring other indications) not yet hors de combat.
Full stop.
Quote from: Phillip;763389Agree so far? No.
Hit points indicate whether a figure is (barring other indications) not yet hors de combat.
Full stop.
That's a good definition.
I have often described HP as "A representation of how hard you are to kill"
I like your version better.
Quote from: jibbajibba;763388Its not complicated.
HPs are a mix of skill fatigue luck etc.
Agree so far ?
When the 10th level fighter gets hit with a Double headed war axe for 16 damage he doesn't take a blow full to the face and just shrug it off. He deflects the blow takes most of it on his armour etc etc so in effect he is spending HPs to avoid taking an axe to the face.
Agree so far?
So if the blow hits the PC looses some fatigue, stamina expends some of those HPs but is still on his feet. So if the blow "misses" and he still takes HP damage and we assume that this is the same sort of thing he dodges expending energy or he takes the blow on his shield or armour. So a miss is exactly the same mechanically as a hit except the "damage" or HP loss is less.
Agree so Far?
So really what you are saying here is a great blow mightly swing is in effect getting a +8 to hit but if he doesn't succeed by 8 more than the target's AC its just a glancing blow dealing Str damage bonus.
So the rule is really saying 2 handed weapons get +8 to hit but often hit for a feeble blow.
Now that sounds a bit daft to me. Especially if we replace the armoured fighter with an unarmoured wizard say.
That was my point nothing more complex.
The problem with damage on a miss -- outside the fact that a miss is still a hit -- is that it opens up the whole can of worms regarding hit points. If HP's aren't meat, as many people believe they are not, then HITS represent exactly what you described, above -- narrow misses, fatigue from parrying, a shivering blow to the shield arm, etc. All this until fatigue, luck, stamina, whatever HP's is is so low, that a "true" hit brings down a target.
Now, if your attack hits no matter what, then that damage that used to be expressed in that manner become the domain of the miss, and the hit must be something else entirely. A miss is "a mild hit," and a hit is a "big hit." Bear in mind it's ALWAYS a hit, unless you're going to rule that a '1' is an actual, actual miss. You just have various levels of "hittage." The player NEVER misses with that great weapon. Worse, there is no tradeoff for the ability. None. Your great weapon doesn't slow you down. It doesn't lessen the number of attacks you make. There's no STR minimum to wield it. You just need the proficiency. The only downside is you can't use a shield. That's 2 points of AC in 5E. But no problem. Wear heavy armor, where DEX doesn't matter at all. That will give you a -5' speed penalty, but that's pretty much it (oh, and you can overcome speed penalties in Heavy Armor with a Feat).
So, DoaM is a win-win-win-win for fighters. Moar damage due to the big weapon. ALWAYS a small "plink" of damage, no matter what. Don't worry about close quarters because PLINK! Don't worry about whiffing, ever, because PLINK! Your big, scary weapon is so incredibly imposing, you need only wave it near the target and PLINK! You'll ALWAYS do something to the target, regardless of how resourceful, well-trained, armored, steely-eyed, tough, etc., said target is, YOU, with your penis-substitute, will smack it.
I understand the explanation for how it works, but from a game standpoint, it's just a shitty thing conceptually for me. Rather than ban it, of course, I intend to use it. How about a little DoaM on the spellcaster trying to concentrate when he casts? "I cast--" PLINK! "No you don't. Make a saving throw first." (saves) "Okay, now I cast-" PLINK! "Sorry--the second minion smacked you." "But he rolled a '1'." "DoaM, sorry. Save again, please." (blank stare).
Can't wait for my goblins who are sooooo good with their bows that just raising your shield to block the arrows shivers your spine for 2 points of damage (Did I mention there's 24 arrows on their way toward you, RIGHT NOW? PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK...take 48 dmg)
[sigh...I love playing, but honestly, modern D&D is the soccer version of the game. Getting in the player's way while they're trying to be awesome nets you a red card.]
Bill, I'm sure you know that the point tally has been used quite a bit to put figures out of action without killing them.
DM: Bob the Bold, you are surrounded in an ally by a rival adventuring party. All 6 of them swing their swords at you." *Rolls Dice* 1,2,3,4,5,6. "They all miss."
Bob: "Whew!"
DM: "Take 30 points of damage."
Bob: "WTF?"
Quote from: JRR;763403DM: Bob the Bold, you are surrounded in an ally by a rival adventuring party. All 6 of them swing their swords at you." *Rolls Dice* 1,2,3,4,5,6. "They all miss."
Bob: "Whew!"
DM: "Take 30 points of damage."
Bob: "WTF?"
Well, that's just arbitrarily reading information the system is not producing - and damned lazy in terms of meeting the actual expectation that you'll use imagination.
If the D&D concept does not suit you, it certainly can be tarted up (e.g., Arneson's hit locations and critical hits) - but I'll say again that folks inclined that way might want to look into something designed from the start for that kind of simulation. RuneQuest, The Fantasy Trip, HarnMaster and GURPS are a few examples that come to mind.
Quote from: JRR;763403DM: Bob the Bold, you are surrounded in an ally by a rival adventuring party. All 6 of them swing their swords at you." *Rolls Dice* 1,2,3,4,5,6. "They all miss."
Bob: "Whew!"
DM: "Take 30 points of damage."
Bob: "WTF?"
Well, that's just arbitrarily reading information the system is not producing - and damned lazy in terms of meeting the actual expectation that you'll use imagination.
If the D&D concept does not suit you, it certainly can be tarted up (e.g., Arneson's hit locations and critical hits) - but I'll say again that folks inclined that way might want to look into something designed from the start for that kind of simulation. RuneQuest, The Fantasy Trip, HarnMaster and GURPS are a few examples that come to mind.
(Aside: Is not 5 pts./fig. rather higher than the actual rule? And if I understand correctly that it's limited to two-handed swords and axes and such, how are 6 fellows getting the chance to inconvenience Bob so much more than each other?)
Quote from: JRR;763403DM: Bob the Bold, you are surrounded in an ally by a rival adventuring party. All 6 of them swing their swords at you." *Rolls Dice* 1,2,3,4,5,6. "They all miss."
Bob: "Whew!"
DM: "Take 30 points of damage."
Bob: "WTF?"
Yeah, something similar o this happened in one of my play-test games with some Ogres. It did not go down well.
Quote from: jibbajibba;763339No it's not it's damage on a miss.
you spend HPs to mitigate wounds. When you loose HPs you are taking fatigue etc etc just like when you take he great sword blow on your shield.
So the fact of HPs means that you don't take damage on a miss because of the force of the blow etc because that is what HPs are already doing.
Yes and after X number of rounds someone will just drop from blocking no matter how tough they are, how well they defend, or anything else even if a solid hit is never landed. The reason:
because great weapon.:rolleyes:
Well I gotta say the name don't lie. A weapon that can steadily kill someone without scoring an actual hit is pretty great compared to everything else.
It isn't about hp being meat vs other stuff, and no D&D round has ever been short enough to try and map a hit roll to a single swing. The simple abstraction of D&D combat is simply that a success indicates the effort for the round scored damage sufficient to cause HP loss and a failed roll doesn't. That damage can be from a hit, glancing blow, or whatever.
Followed through to a logical conclusion, if we start saying that the effort of blocking a single blow from a strong fighter can still cause 1-3 points of fatigue damage, how do all those 1-2 HP peasants work in the fields all day without keeling over? When there are such people in the world then something that causes actual HP damage needs to be significant.
Quote from: jibbajibba;763348But with long AD&D rounds the guy weilding the 2h Sword should be taking fatigue damage cos those things are bloody heavy :)
Not as heavy as D&D makes them out to be. If you are talking manga swords then sure. Historical 2 handers were often in the 5-7 pound range. Anyone in decent shape and trained with such a weapon wouldn't fatigue all that quickly.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;763246yay, are we gonna have this argument again?
Guess so...
Quote from: Phillip;763400Bill, I'm sure you know that the point tally has been used quite a bit to put figures out of action without killing them.
True; I was using the word 'Kill' improperly. I should have said 'defeat'
Quote from: JRR;763403DM: Bob the Bold, you are surrounded in an ally by a rival adventuring party. All 6 of them swing their swords at you." *Rolls Dice* 1,2,3,4,5,6. "They all miss."
Bob: "Whew!"
DM: "Take 30 points of damage."
Bob: "WTF?"
Disclaimer: I am not fond of automatic damage.
But, I don't think its the end of the world that a person surrounded by six enemies might get murderstomped.
But I would favor giving all the six attackers a +6 to hit over auto damage.
Quote from: Zachary The First;763382It was a participant ribbon of the mechanics.
That's honestly how I feel too, and it's good to know that RQ is around to hand out a gold medal to the victor and send everyone else packing.
And I'd say some of the other mechanics being argued in other threads also stem from the Participant Ribbon mechanic philosophy. I think this philosophy also limits (or at least discourages) the kind of tactical creativity I enjoy in D&D combat. I like the panic when dice rolls go wrong and PCs run out of ammo/spell resources. So all these little rules may add up to a personally dispreferred combat experience.
To be a touch more generous, though, the Ribbon mechanics could also come from combat rounds taking too long. In our AD&D, a combat round is usually less than a minute or two of table-time, especially once we're a few rounds into combat when tactics have been established. So if I roll my d20 and miss, or I run out of offensive spells, or miss my backstab, it sucks for now, but I get to try something again really soon. If the combat round is 10 minutes or more, and I miss once or twice, it could be a half-hour until I get to do damage. So Damage On A Miss is a way for me to not completely waste time. There's still a good bit of "waah, I'm bored" here but it makes a bit of sense at least.
So perhaps the TSRD&D guys (like me) don't like or need all this extra stuff because the rounds are quick enough that a miss ain't a wasted evening.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;763297I'll use small words: there is no such thing as "damage on a miss."
If you did damage, it's not a miss.
Attacks with auto damage do not miss.
If you make the attack roll, you do normal damage.
If you don't make the attack roll, you do the auto damage.
Anyone who isn't a complete drooling moron can figure this out.
How about I use even smaller words so you can understand: IF I ROLL A DIE TO ATTACK BUT I DO DAMAGE REGARDLESS OF THE ROLL, IT IS NOT AN ATTACK ROLL BUT A ROLL TO DETERMINE DAMAGE.
It's a fucking simple concept. It's NOT a fucking attack roll if you cannot possibly do less than 1 point of damage. You're simply determining how much damage you are doing. Also, mister dumbfuck, why does 13th Age State it thusly, if IN FACT it isn't a miss?
Attack: Strength + Level vs. AC
Hit: WEAPON _ Strength damage
Miss: Damage equal to your level
HEY, LOOKS LIKE IT'S CALLED A MISS IN THE FUCKING RULES.
Christ, don't call me a moron for using the fucking language in the goddamn rules.
Quote from: JRR;763403DM: Bob the Bold, you are surrounded in an ally by a rival adventuring party. All 6 of them swing their swords at you." *Rolls Dice* 1,2,3,4,5,6. "They all miss."
Bob: "Whew!"
DM: "Take 30 points of damage."
Bob: "WTF?"
Not to nit pick overly but in Next at best the fighters would with 18 STR have a +4. So that would be "only" 24 damage. aheh...
See my previous posts elsewhere on the potential of getting a cursed magic sword that makes you allways miss.
I am sure monsters everywhere are relieved that they can no longer be annhialated by roving bands of keystone cops.
Heh. I just thought of an interesting take on great weapon fighting. If you miss by 5 or less, you inflict ability modifier damage (like the rules). If you miss by 6 or more, you inflict ability modifier damage to every target within melee range, including allies. I call it the "Groo Effect" ;)
Quote from: languagegeek;763442That's honestly how I feel too, and it's good to know that RQ is around to hand out a gold medal to the victor and send everyone else packing.
Paraphrasing Sean Connery in the Rock: D&D is always whining about it's best, RuneQuest goes home and fucks the Prom Queen.