Quote from: GnomeWorks;763341If there is a stated correspondence of 1 attack roll = 1 swing of the sword, then yes, "damage on a miss" is a big conceptual problem and makes no sense.

If, however, 1 attack roll = the best of a number of opportunities, then I'd argue that DoaM is pretty sensible, though I'd prefer if only the fighter got it.

Also this is the sort of thing that makes more sense with long rounds (like the very, very long AD&D round) and less sense with short rounds (like the very short 3e round).

Additionally you get weird shit like "oh no a wasp, kill it, send in Bulmir, he's sure to kill it with his greataxe" or perhaps more commonly people using their THF fighters to finish off badly wounded enemies instead of trying to turn the guys still standing into meat chunks.

Anyway I'm pretty sure there are other bonuses to give and I would not want to use damage on a miss except, perhaps, for strange cases like flaming weapons or something like that.

Quote from: Imp;763346Also this is the sort of thing that makes more sense with long rounds (like the very, very long AD&D round) and less sense with short rounds (like the very short 3e round).

Additionally you get weird shit like "oh no a wasp, kill it, send in Bulmir, he's sure to kill it with his greataxe" or perhaps more commonly people using their THF fighters to finish off badly wounded enemies instead of trying to turn the guys still standing into meat chunks.

Anyway I'm pretty sure there are other bonuses to give and I would not want to use damage on a miss except, perhaps, for strange cases like flaming weapons or something like that.

But with long AD&D rounds the guy weilding the 2h Sword should be taking fatigue damage cos those things are bloody heavy

What is supposed to be the point or purpose of the mechanism, game-design-wise?

Why introduce as basic something so different from the game as known from 1974-2007? Wasn't 4e lesson enough?

On the other hand, is it modular enough to ignore without screwing up things any more than, say, ignoring weapon vs. armor type mods in Greyhawk and 1st PHB?

In the playtest, "Str damage on miss with two-handed weapon" was the effect of choosing Great Weapon as a Fighting Style. That is a class feature of Fighters, Paladins and Rangers. You could choose Archery, Defense, Shield Block or Two Weapon Fighting instead.

So yes, you can just choose Defense and take that +1 AC.

Quote from: jibbajibba;763339No it's not it's damage on a miss.

you spend HPs to mitigate wounds. When you loose HPs you are taking fatigue etc etc just like when you take he great sword blow on your shield.

So the fact of HPs means that you don't take damage on a miss because of the force of the blow etc because that is what HPs are already doing.

If you are saying that the great blow always connects but for a low range of those hits it is really just buffettign damge then in D&D terms you shoudl say " A great Blow gets +8 to hit, but only deals Str bonus damage if it doesn't exceed the target to hit bonus my more than 8"

Now when you write it out like that it becomes obvious that the great blow shouldn;t have that effect cos a +8 to hit is really silly

I don't quite get what you're trying to say here. I can say, though, that the classic D&D rules do not, except in special cases, tell whether a given blow hit or missed. "Miss" is just a colloqial term for a dice-roll that - from one perspective - "fails" to give a desired result.

Thus, a "miss" on a saving throw might give double damage or otherwise worse consequences from the victim's point of view.

The rules produce outcomes with very, very little concern for intermediary process details. They are for people who find T&T too much number-crunching. If you want bloody RuneQuest, do yourself a favor and get the real thing!

Quote from: CRKrueger;763245Probably because even though the abstract definition of HPs allows for such a thing, the implementation used was ludicrous.

This I can at least understand and I am guessing it is the OPs reason.

My point is its small time compared to what some of the other classes are getting.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;763266Whoop I needed a 10 to get to free parking I rolled a 9 guess that means I make it because I'm the car

wait what

Monopoly. GTA edition.

Quote from: jibbajibba;763305So how does in work. Are you saying that Dave the 2 handed sword guy simply can't miss. If he tries to hit he will always do so even if its a glancing blow.

How do you reconcile that with Frank the guy that is really good at dodging blows?

Apply the Lealaps vs the Teumessian Fox solution.

Quote from: Phillip;763356What is supposed to be the point or purpose of the mechanism, game-design-wise?

Why introduce as basic something so different from the game as known from 1974-2007? Wasn't 4e lesson enough?

On the other hand, is it modular enough to ignore without screwing up things any more than, say, ignoring weapon vs. armor type mods in Greyhawk and 1st PHB?

I always thought it was a concession to those who felt that felt any sort of character failure wasn't "fun". It was a participant ribbon of the mechanics. You miss, starting sniffling, and then one of the [strike]soccer[/strike] dungeon moms announces it's ok, you still did damage, are awesome, and they're taking everyone out for orange slices and pizza after the session.

Probably not. But that's how it felt.

Quote from: Zachary The First;763382I always thought it was a concession to those who felt that felt any sort of character failure wasn't "fun". It was a participant ribbon of the mechanics. You miss, starting sniffling, and then one of the [strike]soccer[/strike] dungeon moms announces it's ok, you still did damage, are awesome, and they're taking everyone out for orange slices and pizza after the session.

Probably not. But that's how it felt.

Then the 5th level Evocer does 1d8 to the 16STR 2h fighters 3 damage... Resume weeping because the mage might do more than 3 damage. (well average 4. but whos counting?)

But it is, far as we know. Removed.

Wonder if the evocer got theirs yanked too?

Quote from: Phillip;763361I don't quite get what you're trying to say here. I can say, though, that the classic D&D rules do not, except in special cases, tell whether a given blow hit or missed. "Miss" is just a colloqial term for a dice-roll that - from one perspective - "fails" to give a desired result.

Thus, a "miss" on a saving throw might give double damage or otherwise worse consequences from the victim's point of view.

The rules produce outcomes with very, very little concern for intermediary process details. They are for people who find T&T too much number-crunching. If you want bloody RuneQuest, do yourself a favor and get the real thing!

Its not complicated.

HPs are a mix of skill fatigue luck etc.

Agree so far ?

When the 10th level fighter gets hit with a Double headed war axe for 16 damage he doesn't take a blow full to the face and just shrug it off. He deflects the blow takes most of it on his armour etc etc so in effect he is spending HPs to avoid taking an axe to the face.

Agree so far?

So if the blow hits the PC looses some fatigue, stamina  expends some of those HPs but is still on his feet. So if the blow "misses" and he still takes HP damage and we assume that this is the same sort of thing he dodges expending energy or he takes the blow on his shield or armour. So a miss is exactly the same mechanically as a hit except the "damage" or HP loss is less.

Agree so Far?

So really what you are saying here is a great blow mightly swing is in effect getting a +8 to hit but if he doesn't succeed by 8 more than the target's AC its just a glancing blow dealing Str damage bonus.
So the rule is really saying 2 handed weapons get +8 to hit but often hit for a feeble blow.

Now that sounds a bit daft to me. Especially if we replace the armoured fighter with an unarmoured wizard say.

That was my point nothing more complex.

Agree so far? No.

Hit points indicate whether a figure is (barring other indications) not yet hors de combat.

Full stop.

Quote from: Phillip;763389Agree so far? No.

Hit points indicate whether a figure is (barring other indications) not yet hors de combat.

Full stop.

That's a good definition.

I have often described HP as "A representation of how hard you are to kill"

I like your version better.

Quote from: jibbajibba;763388Its not complicated.

HPs are a mix of skill fatigue luck etc.

Agree so far ?

When the 10th level fighter gets hit with a Double headed war axe for 16 damage he doesn't take a blow full to the face and just shrug it off. He deflects the blow takes most of it on his armour etc etc so in effect he is spending HPs to avoid taking an axe to the face.

Agree so far?

So if the blow hits the PC looses some fatigue, stamina  expends some of those HPs but is still on his feet. So if the blow "misses" and he still takes HP damage and we assume that this is the same sort of thing he dodges expending energy or he takes the blow on his shield or armour. So a miss is exactly the same mechanically as a hit except the "damage" or HP loss is less.

Agree so Far?

So really what you are saying here is a great blow mightly swing is in effect getting a +8 to hit but if he doesn't succeed by 8 more than the target's AC its just a glancing blow dealing Str damage bonus.
So the rule is really saying 2 handed weapons get +8 to hit but often hit for a feeble blow.

Now that sounds a bit daft to me. Especially if we replace the armoured fighter with an unarmoured wizard say.

That was my point nothing more complex.

The problem with damage on a miss -- outside the fact that a miss is still a hit -- is that it opens up the whole can of worms regarding hit points. If HP's aren't meat, as many people believe they are not, then HITS represent exactly what you described, above -- narrow misses, fatigue from parrying, a shivering blow to the shield arm, etc. All this until fatigue, luck, stamina, whatever HP's is is so low, that a "true" hit brings down a target.

Now, if your attack hits no matter what, then that damage that used to be expressed in that manner become the domain of the miss, and the hit must be something else entirely. A miss is "a mild hit," and a hit is a "big hit." Bear in mind it's ALWAYS a hit, unless you're going to rule that a '1' is an actual, actual miss. You just have various levels of "hittage." The player NEVER misses with that great weapon. Worse, there is no tradeoff for the ability. None. Your great weapon doesn't slow you down. It doesn't lessen the number of attacks you make. There's no STR minimum to wield it. You just need the proficiency. The only downside is you can't use a shield. That's 2 points of AC in  5E. But no problem. Wear heavy armor, where DEX doesn't matter at all. That will give you a -5' speed penalty, but that's pretty much it (oh, and you can overcome speed penalties in Heavy Armor with a Feat).

So, DoaM is a win-win-win-win for fighters. Moar damage due to the big weapon. ALWAYS a small "plink" of damage, no matter what. Don't worry about close quarters because PLINK! Don't worry about whiffing, ever, because PLINK! Your big, scary weapon is so incredibly imposing, you need only wave it near the target and PLINK! You'll ALWAYS do something to the target, regardless of how resourceful, well-trained, armored, steely-eyed, tough, etc., said target is, YOU, with your penis-substitute, will smack it.

I understand the explanation for how it works, but from a game standpoint, it's just a shitty thing conceptually for me. Rather than ban it, of course, I intend to use it. How about a little DoaM on the spellcaster trying to concentrate when he casts? "I cast--" PLINK! "No you don't. Make a saving throw first." (saves) "Okay, now I cast-" PLINK! "Sorry--the second minion smacked you." "But he rolled a '1'." "DoaM, sorry. Save again, please." (blank stare).

Can't wait for my goblins who are sooooo good with their bows that just raising your shield to block the arrows shivers your spine for 2 points of damage (Did I mention there's 24 arrows on their way toward you, RIGHT NOW?  PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK PLINK...take 48 dmg)


[sigh...I love playing, but honestly, modern D&D is the soccer version of the game. Getting in the player's way while they're trying to be awesome nets you a red card.]

Bill, I'm sure you know that the point tally has been used quite a bit to put figures out of action without killing them.