Quote from: RPGPundit;294497I think you fail to really comprehend most gamers.  A certain group of gamers will immediately understand that the PHBII is not an essential product.  Another group will insist that it must be incorporated into the game, but they're the same people that think EVERYTHING should be considered an essential part of the rules; those annoying shitheads who try to force the GM to let them have Obscure Feat #876213 from the Book of Exalted Munchkinism just because it exists.
In either scenario, the idea that the name of the book itself somehow affects things directly seems wrongheaded to me.  I suppose that, at best, you could argue that calling it a PHB means that the shiteheads will be able to bulwark their argument that the GM "must" accept it.

RPGPundit

I think that the idea that the name of the book itself somehow affects things directly seems wrongheaded as well, but then again I'm a gamer who thinks for himself and has been gaming for 28 years. What I think does not matter.

What a Marketting and Sales department thinks does matter. If they believe it will improve sales, that department may try all sorts of tricks - like proclaiming Worldwide D&D Game Day Events whenever a new PHB, DMG, or MM comes out in order to boost sales.

If you are concerned about products being marketted towards munchkins, then you need to understand that those consumers are probably the ones whose purchasing power is directing the Sales and Marketting department. Why? Because they are the ones who are buying the most products.

Let's say that I like D&D 4E. Lets say that I like Bards and Half-Orcs. I would have to use the PHB2 in order to play that class or race. OK, that isn't too bad of a buy-in (let's also assume I'm rich and can afford this).

Now let's travel forward in time to the release of Eberron 4E. I want to play a shifter. So now do I have to buy the 4E PHB2 to get the race stats because they aren't in the Eberron 4E book? How about the Spelljammer 4E setting or Planescape 4E setting, will I have to buy the Manual of the Planes 4E in order to get important information needed to play in that setting?

Abyssal Maw, who I believed was an expert on 4E, has proclaimed that all the books released for 4E are Core Rulebooks. Even if that is wrong and only the PHBs, DMGs, and MMs are Core Rulebooks, then it still changes the landscape of the game considerably. Now while individual DMs can declare some books to be optional for his campaign, that isn't the official word anymore. This is the first game book line in which the splatbooks that in all other game lines were optional are now considered Core Rulebooks. That creates a large and expensive buy-in for the 4E game. It takes the supplement mill and cranks the volume up to 11.

Well, I think it can certainly be tied into an effort to try to make you, if not to buy other books, to have to subscribe to the DDI thing.

But again, none of this is anything new, the whole "You get almost everything in this book except this ONE THING that you'll have to wait for our next book to get" business is something pretty old (and I agree, crappy) in our hobby, though I'd hoped we'd more or less seen the last of it for D&D. I guess not.

Even so, however, as far as I understand it, you can still choose the "Minimalist" option.  Use the 3 basic corebooks and nothing else, and its still a fully playable game.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;294525Well, I think it can certainly be tied into an effort to try to make you, if not to buy other books, to have to subscribe to the DDI thing.

But again, none of this is anything new, the whole "You get almost everything in this book except this ONE THING that you'll have to wait for our next book to get" business is something pretty old (and I agree, crappy) in our hobby, though I'd hoped we'd more or less seen the last of it for D&D. I guess not.

Agreed. Although I have some hope with the rising tide of fan-produced material that may be able to compete with "professional" game material.

Quote from: RPGPundit;294525Even so, however, as far as I understand it, you can still choose the "Minimalist" option.  Use the 3 basic corebooks and nothing else, and its still a fully playable game.

RPGPundit

Which may be what is done by many. I can easily see people gaming to the level that they can afford and no further. They would still have fun, but fewer options.

I don't get mad about material being "left out" and published later, I get irritated when they deliberately tell me to expect specific new material at a later date.  Often this feels like if I try to fill in the canon plot with my own ideas that I'll be undermining the usefullness of future products.

If you introduce a plot point don't give me one bare paragraph and say more on that later.  Give me a good idea where this plot point starts and where it ends.  You can feel free to flesh out the setting as you go but the core book should do a good job of letting people know what the entire skeleton looks like.

Well, I think that one must consider the design behind the classes and their sources of power.  Each class in 4e D&D has a power source.  In the first Player's Handbook (p. 54), it discusses these power sources and which classes they power.  In that section, they outline several Player's Handbook volumes, each fleshing out a power source, and their associated classes.  

The PH1 covers the Martial, Arcane, and Divine power sources, and the associated classes:

Martial: Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and Warlord.
Arcane: Warlock and Wizard.
Divine: Cleric and Paladin.

The PH2 covers the Primal, Arcane, and Divine power sources, and the associated classes:

Primal: Barbarian, Druid, Shaman, and Warden.
Arcane: Bard and Sorcerer.
Divine: Avenger and Invoker.

So, the pattern looks like 4 classes to a power source.  In the section in the PH1 on power sources, it states that there are several other power sources.  These are: Elemental, Ki, Psionic, and Shadow.  The Monk class will be based off the Ki power source, and psionic classes based off the Psionic power source.

So, realistically we're probably looking at four official Player's Handbooks for 4e D&D.  

Also, that doesn't include other books like Martial Power which outlines two new builds for each of the martial power source classes.  More than likely, there will be one associated book with each PH volume to provide two new builds for those classes, if it follows the same pattern.

What about the children??!!??

Quote from: Aos;294534What about the children??!!??

Naturally, they'll have their own official source book.

Quote from: Aos;294534What about the children??!!??

Power Sources shall include Infant, Prepubescant, and Pubescant.

Quote from: jeff37923;294401I think that there is a common misconception about how AD&D2 ended along with TSR that has more to do with Lorraine Williams and piss-poor business decisions and looting the company than it does with a gamer fanbase divided by settings.

Hrm, fair enough. But I have to ask - is it a misconception? Do we, as a community, know enough about what was going on at the time to say definitively that 2e's downfall was Williams, and not trying to support a bunch of disparate settings?

QuoteAnd is [magazines serving as smaller sources of splat and adventures] necessarily a bad thing?

Hmm, I guess I'm not sure. It would seem to lead to the same problem as supplements, eventually.

QuoteNo. GMs who are too permissive about what they allow in their campaigns. I've never heard of the "division of labor" arguement but I don't think that is quite it.

Fair enough, I'm just throwing ideas out there.

But you have to ask - why does GM permissiveness lead to powercreep? Clearly that must be due to how the splats are written, would it not?

QuoteBy providing material that may or may not fit into the campaign playstyle of the game being run, but the GM should have to read and figure out where that will fit, if at all, out of consideration for his players. It is extra homework for the GM to do. The less extra added work for the GM that may not be beneficial to a campaign in progress is good.

Hypothetical: say a game's designers had conceptually divided the game into several parts, and made game additions - whether in the form of splats or magazines - readily identifiable as to what part of the game they served; ie, this additional book serves the combat portion of the game, while this one serves the skill system, while another serves world generation and setting development. Would perhaps an easing of the integration process by means of easy identifiers help this at all?

QuoteSometimes it is the size of the bite that determines whether or not you choke on the food.

Fair enough, but I hear it's possible to choke on a pretzel...

I think a better reflection of the real impact of the supplement issue could best be elucidated by asking oneself the following questions. Will I buy supplements for my preferred system? If so, will I buy them all? If I will not buy them all, under what conditions will I buy them? and:  J. Edgar Hoover, what the fuck was up with that?

Quote from: GnomeWorks;294556Hrm, fair enough. But I have to ask - is it a misconception? Do we, as a community, know enough about what was going on at the time to say definitively that 2e's downfall was Williams, and not trying to support a bunch of disparate settings?

From everything I've read, that was the case. Lorraine Williams killed TSR and D&D along with it.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;294556But you have to ask - why does GM permissiveness lead to powercreep? Clearly that must be due to how the splats are written, would it not?

Not how the splatbooks are written I think (although I've found more game balance destroying munchkin shit in splatbooks than anywhere else). The power creep problem with GM permissiveness comes in because a lot of times, the GM wants to let the player have his new toy in the campaign because he is afraid of saying "no" and offending the player. Put that becomes a problem because most splatbooks are without regard to the home campaign which may be running. If the GM starts changing the parameters of what is and is not allowable in the campaign, pretty soon you have something which is the RPG equivalent of playing tennis without a net. It becomes a mashup instead.

Quote from: jeff37923;294517Abyssal Maw, who I believed was an expert on 4E, has proclaimed that all the books released for 4E are Core Rulebooks. Even if that is wrong and only the PHBs, DMGs, and MMs are Core Rulebooks, then it still changes the landscape of the game considerably. Now while individual DMs can declare some books to be optional for his campaign, that isn't the official word anymore. This is the first game book line in which the splatbooks that in all other game lines were optional are now considered Core Rulebooks. That creates a large and expensive buy-in for the 4E game. It takes the supplement mill and cranks the volume up to 11.

All the books are core in the same that all Magic the Gathering cards are core. Theyre all official rules. But do you need a complete set of every magic card in order to play?

Heck, there's a new guy at the Thursday LFR game who doesn't own a single book. He just downloaded the free  version of the character builder and thats it.

Quote from: jeff37923;294563From everything I've read, that was the case. Lorraine Williams killed TSR and D&D along with it.

Fair enough, then.

QuoteNot how the splatbooks are written I think (although I've found more game balance destroying munchkin shit in splatbooks than anywhere else).

Which would be a concern...

QuotePut that becomes a problem because most splatbooks are without regard to the home campaign which may be running. If the GM starts changing the parameters of what is and is not allowable in the campaign, pretty soon you have something which is the RPG equivalent of playing tennis without a net. It becomes a mashup instead.

I don't know if I follow as to how supplements cause powercreep by GMs being too permissive.

...though I can't readily think of a supplement that lacked at least one element that contributed to powercreep. Mind you I only have serious experience with d20, so that may just be my limited exposure to other games and not something that is endemic to the nature of supplements.

If all of the options presented in a splat are power-neutral - that is, not contributing to powercreep - how would it contribute to powercreep if a given GM allows it in-game?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;294564All the books are core in the same that all Magic the Gathering cards are core. Theyre all official rules. But do you need a complete set of every magic card in order to play?

No, but present me with two options for a deck, one made of cards from Ice Age and one from Ravnica block, and I would be a fool to take the Ice Age deck.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;294572I don't know if I follow as to how supplements cause powercreep by GMs being too permissive.

...though I can't readily think of a supplement that lacked at least one element that contributed to powercreep. Mind you I only have serious experience with d20, so that may just be my limited exposure to other games and not something that is endemic to the nature of supplements.

I'm probably not explaining my point well.

Here's an example. Last 3.x Forgotten Realms game I was in we had a Paladin. The player of this Paladin had found a spell in one of the FR WotC splatbooks that allowed him to sacrifice hit points in order to do more damage with each strike. The only problem was that consequently the Paladin was doing over a hundred points of damage to opponents with each strike when this was done, at 7th level. The DM had never heard of the splatbook or the spell, but decided it couldn't be unbalancing since it came from WotC. He decided to say that the spell wasn't allowed after one session and the Paladin player had a shit-fit over that, which got bad because he was also the DM's roommate. That is one example, there are more.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;294572If all of the options presented in a splat are power-neutral - that is, not contributing to powercreep - how would it contribute to powercreep if a given GM allows it in-game?

It may not be a problem with powercreep in that case. It may just not fit the campaign setting. Psionics may not really fit into the Bog Standard Fantasy campaign you are running.