The question is really, does the mere act of calling something a "core rulebook" make it a Core Rulebook? Even if it has nothing in it that will actually be obligatory to play the game with?  I mean, I haven't seen the PHBII, but as far as I know there is absolutely NOTHING there that you MUST have or 4e is unplayable.  So by default, its a book full of optional stuff.

Isn't it?

RPGPundit

I agree with that. Core is anything you cannot play the game without.

Quote from: RPGPundit;294337The question is really, does the mere act of calling something a "core rulebook" make it a Core Rulebook?

That is a question for the Marketting and Sales department of the publisher. If a book is branded a Core Rulebook, then most player consumers will accept that it is indeed a Core Rulebook required for play.

But what's the alternative?

If a company is going to continue to support a game, it has to continue to pump out books, right? I'm not sure how well or how long a game can survive on its core books (actual core, none of this 4e crap). Even 1e and 2e had their splats.

How would a company embrace moving away from the supplement mill? What do you replace it with? Modules and such would seem a reasonable way to go, but that's only going to be sales towards DMs, which - regardless of system - is going to be a guaranteed smaller market than the entirety of the player base of a system. So how do you keep making money once you have an established player base, aside from hopping on the supplement mill?

Quote from: jeff37923;294361That is a question for the Marketing and Sales department of the publisher. If a book is branded a Core Rulebook, then most player consumers will accept that it is indeed a Core Rulebook required for play.

Totally untrue. In my campaign there are several players who don't own the PHB2.. it has no effect on them whatsoever, because they aren't playing one of the new races or classes in that particular book. If you aren't specifically playing a Shaman or an Avenger or whatever, you don't need it.

That said, DDI has really changed the game on what core means. Now Core means "this is official content". This includes everything from every single book, as well as Dragon and Dungeon magazine AND published adventures (including the 52 or so Living Realms adventures). So nearly everything is core in that way. Everything that isn't specifically marked as playtest material, in fact is designated as core. At some point we can even stop talking about books, because if you have a DDI subscription, you have everything (via compendium and the character builder) whether you own the book or not.

(...So if something comes out in Dragon, or comes out in the Ocean Adventure book (fictional example), or comes out in the Complete Guide to Polearms.. it's all considered "core" as far as official rules go.)

Back to my half orc bravura warlord I've been playing lately:

He's using options from Martial Power (the Bravura Presence feature), PHB2 (half orc), and Dragon (Vampiric bloodline feat and soon, the Net feat from the gladiators article on Dragon).

1. I never even cracked a single book to build him, because all of that material was in the builder.
2. I can use him for LFR because he's considered "all core." Despite having features from 2 other books and 2 issues of Dragon Magazine.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;294367Totally untrue. In my campaign there are several players who don't own the PHB2.. it has no effect on them whatsoever, because they aren't playing one of the new races or classes in that particular book. If you aren't specifically playing a Shaman or an Avenger or whatever, you don't need it.

So then why has WotC branded the 4E PHB2 a Core Rulebook if not for Sales and Marketting purposes?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;294367That said, DDI has really changed the game on what core means. Now Core means "this is official content". This includes everything from every single book, as well as Dragon and Dungeon magazine AND published adventures (including the 52 or so Living Realms adventures). So nearly everything is core in that way. Everything that isn't specifically marked as playtest material, in fact is designated as core. At some point we can even stop talking about books, because if you have a DDI subscription, you have everything (via compendium and the character builder) whether you own the book or not.

(...So if something comes out in Dragon, or comes out in the Ocean Adventure book (fictional example), or comes out in the Complete Guide to Polearms.. it's all considered "core" as far as official rules go.)

Back to my half orc bravura warlord I've been playing lately:

He's using options from Martial Power (the Bravura Presence feature), PHB2 (half orc), and Dragon (Vampiric bloodline feat and soon, the Net feat from the gladiators article on Dragon).

1. I never even cracked a single book to build him, because all of that material was in the builder.
2. I can use him for LFR because he's considered "all core." Despite having features from 2 other books and 2 issues of Dragon Magazine.

So you are saying that to have all the Core materials for D&D 4E you must also subscribe to DDI or else you will be missing something.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;294362But what's the alternative?

Now that is the million dollar question. I wish I could say I had the answer.

Welcome aboard GnomeWorks!

Quote from: GnomeWorks;294362If a company is going to continue to support a game, it has to continue to pump out books, right? I'm not sure how well or how long a game can survive on its core books (actual core, none of this 4e crap). Even 1e and 2e had their splats.

How would a company embrace moving away from the supplement mill? What do you replace it with? Modules and such would seem a reasonable way to go, but that's only going to be sales towards DMs, which - regardless of system - is going to be a guaranteed smaller market than the entirety of the player base of a system. So how do you keep making money once you have an established player base, aside from hopping on the supplement mill?

New settings and their associated specific books and modules is one way I can think of. Miniatures would be another good one, the pre-painted plastic D&D miniatures were fantastic for all of us who hate painting. A magazine which supports the game with a diverse selection of articles would be good as well.

See, the down side of splatbooks is that while they might be chock full of cool ideas for players, they are a giant pain in the ass for GMs. For each spaltbook that the GM lets in his game, he has to determine the impact of the content on his game. If he just lets anything in, then the game can quickly become broken as an unintended consequence. The GMs workload is always increased by allowing splatbooks, which can contribute to GM burnout. If the GM just says no to splatbooks, then the player who bought it is likely to become disgruntled because he just spent $20 or so on something he can't use in the game.

Smaller additions, like those from module appendices and magazine articles, are shorter and easier to fit into an evolving campaign without drasticly increasing GM workload. So that may be a better way to go than splatbooks.

Quote from: jeff37923;294369So then why has WotC branded the 4E PHB2 a Core Rulebook if not for Sales and Marketting purposes?

Well, in a way it is marketing: over the last decade people got the idea that everything optional should be disallowed by default. Even now, over at Enworld they have a "Living Enworld" persistent play by post campaign and they disallow everything but the main rulebooks (they disallow the PHB2 too, even though it says core, by the way).

By saying "this is official content" they hope to convince DMs who are prone to disallowing new player options into accepting new stuff. By saying 'everything is official content' it's one more reason to check out Dragon.

Dragon, by the way, has been especially great lately.

Quote from: JeffSo you are saying that to have all the Core materials for D&D 4E you must also subscribe to DDI or else you will be missing something.

Everything is core.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;294371Well, in a way it is marketing: over the last decade people got the idea that everything optional should be disallowed by default. Even now, over at Enworld they have a "Living Enworld" persistent play by post campaign and they disallow everything but the main rulebooks (they disallow the PHB2 too, even though it says core, by the way).

By saying "this is official content" they hope to convince DMs who are prone to disallowing new player options into accepting new stuff. By saying 'everything is official content' it's one more reason to check out Dragon.

Dragon, by the way, has been especially great lately.

So, you agree it is just a marketting decision by WotC.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;294371Everything is core.

So therefore in order to have all the official content Core Gaming Material for 4E, the 4E gamer is expected to purchase everything.

Quote from: jeff37923;294370New settings and their associated specific books and modules is one way I can think of.

This splits the fanbase into competing segements, though. They foudn this out the hard way.

Quote from: JeffA magazine which supports the game with a diverse selection of articles would be good as well.

Hey, that's what DDI does! And it's all as core as core can be.

Quote from: JeffSee, the down side of splatbooks is that while they might be chock full of cool ideas for players, they are a giant pain in the ass for GMs. For each splatbook that the GM lets in his game, he has to determine the impact of the content on his game. If he just lets anything in, then the game can quickly become broken as an unintended consequence.

...Unless the entire system itself is simplified and carefully rebalanced, a philosophy of 'everything is allowed' is embraced from the origin of design, and there's some kind of method for updating electronically when errata does occur.

Can you see that they have thought this through already?

Quote from: jeff37923;294372So, you agree it is just a marketting decision by WotC.

The decision to publish any book, anywhere, at any time, is itself a marketing decision.

QuoteSo therefore in order to have all the official content Core Gaming Material for 4E, the 4E gamer is expected to purchase everything.

For ~$4.95 a month, ($7.95 if you only want a single month worth) you can get a DDI subscription that will have everything, yes. Thank you for pointing that out.

Quote from: jeff37923;294370Welcome aboard GnomeWorks!

Danke.

QuoteI wish I could say I had the answer.

I'm sure there is one. It is simply waiting to be found.

QuoteNew settings and their associated specific books and modules is one way I can think of.

Ah, but this inevitably would lead to something akin to how 2e ended, would it not, what with attempting to support dozens of settings? It may not begin that way, but wouldn't it probably go that route?

Or would something more akin to how White Wolf is handling the various World of Darkness lines work - one setting a year? I don't know personally if that approach is working or not, but would it be something worth exploring? Even if it is working, is there still a better way to go about it?

QuoteMiniatures would be another good one, the pre-painted plastic D&D miniatures were fantastic for all of us who hate painting.

Which is a wholly different market than printing and writing gaming material; it requires a whole lot more people to manage this sort of thing, and there wouldn't be much departmental crossover. This would probably be prohibitively expensive, at least at first, for a hypothetical start-up.

The human resources aspect would seem to nip this one in the bud, though I could be wrong.

QuoteA magazine which supports the game with a diverse selection of articles would be good as well.

But look at what Dragon became, after time - just another splat, essentially, just smaller and periodical. Sure, there is usually some non-mechanical content, but in my experience, most of it is crunch.

Dungeon is basically the same thing, just replacing "splat" with "module."

QuoteIf he just lets anything in, then the game can quickly become broken as an unintended consequence.

Does it have to be this way? What causes powercreep? Is it due to division of labor, as - after the core of a system is released - the original design team separates to work on different and varying projects, or - perhaps worse - is set into a management-esque position, simply acting as oversight above less-talented and knowledgeable designers, which causes powercreep to sneak in through the bureaucratic cracks?

QuoteThe GMs workload is always increased by allowing splatbooks, which can contribute to GM burnout. If the GM just says no to splatbooks, then the player who bought it is likely to become disgruntled because he just spent $20 or so on something he can't use in the game.

Disgruntled players is something we'd want to avoid, so I guess the question then is - why do splats contribute to GM burnout? Is it due to the nature of how splats are written, what with usually being of rather significant size and focused nature? Is it because of the notion that splats tend to be mechanically questionable, and so GMs feel it necessary to hunt for broken mechanics?

QuoteSmaller additions, like those from module appendices and magazine articles, are shorter and easier to fit into an evolving campaign without drasticly increasing GM workload. So that may be a better way to go than splatbooks.

I'm still not convinced that periodicals would be better than splats or modules. They're smaller and more easily-digested, yes, but I'm not sure that that is sufficient to overcome the fact that they're simply splats and modules in convincing bite-sized disguises.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;294362But what's the alternative?

Welcome GnomeWorks!

I think that White Wolf with its five-supplements games/one game a year publishing scheme represents a middle ground between "supplement mill" and "tons of games produced" (which wouldn't work, see TSR campaign settings in the 1990's for that).

They have an overarching brand, "World of Darkness", and produce one game a year under that label. Very productive IP under this label, like Vampires, will get a game for which supplements keep being produced as long as they sell, while other, fringe games, like Promethean, only got 5 supplements and that's it (it all started with Orpheus, and it was a resounding success).

The magazine solution is another one, but frankly, so far in the hobby, only a very few have been viable enterprises for more than a few years (Dragon of course, White Dwarf...).

I don't know if there is any other way to create wealth on a large scale than the supplement mill and reboot of the line through new editions, honestly.

Quote from: Benoist;294377Welcome GnomeWorks!

Danke.

QuoteI think that White Wolf with its five-supplements games/one game a year publishing scheme represents a middle ground between "supplement mill" and "tons of games produced" (which wouldn't work, see TSR campaign settings in the 1990's for that).

This seems to function off the premise, though, that each WoD game is different. Changeling has a very different feel from Promethean, has a very different feel from Werewolf. The underlying mechanics are largely the same, but the whole point of the game is different.

Is setting enough? Is Al-Qadim sufficiently different enough from, say, Dark Sun, to warrant doing this? Or would you have to start bringing in weird new mechanics, a la Birthright (if I recall correctly), that start changing the nature of the game?

QuoteThe magazine solution is another one, but frankly, so far in the hobby, only a very few have been viable enterprises for more than a few years (Dragon of course, White Dwarf...).

As I pointed out a bit upthread, periodicals seem - at least to me - to just be smaller splats and/or collections of small modules. So I don't see that as avoiding the inherent problem of splats; it's just putting it onto a larger timescale.

QuoteI don't know if there is any other way to create wealth on a large scale than the supplement mill and reboot of the line through new editions, honestly.

I don't think anybody would get into the industry with any thoughts of making mad cash. However, making enough money to stay afloat, pay employees, and perhaps turn a touch of profit... that would be ideal, and would hopefully be a reasonably attainable goal. Can that be reasonably accomplished without resorting to the supplement treadmill?

Quote from: GnomeWorks;294378However, making enough money to stay afloat, pay employees, and perhaps turn a touch of profit... that would be ideal, and would hopefully be a reasonably attainable goal. Can that be reasonably accomplished without resorting to the supplement treadmill?

On a small scale, it is possible. There are new experiments on this front, like patron system of Wolfgang Baur, or Monte Cook's DungeonADay.com, which are basically services that provide maximum returns from few clients with minimal production costs. These are interesting venues in this regard.

If anything, Fight On! and Knockspell are another experiment occuring right now on the "old school" side of things. If these mags are viable over the long term, and if the whole retroclone thing doesn't turn into a supplement mill meanwhile, we might have winners on our hands, but it's impossible to say right now.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;294378This seems to function off the premise, though, that each WoD game is different. Changeling has a very different feel from Promethean, has a very different feel from Werewolf. The underlying mechanics are largely the same, but the whole point of the game is different.

Is setting enough? Is Al-Qadim sufficiently different enough from, say, Dark Sun, to warrant doing this? Or would you have to start bringing in weird new mechanics, a la Birthright (if I recall correctly), that start changing the nature of the game?

It's a middle ground, yes. As for whether it's enough, I'd have the tendency to answer "if it makes profit enough to make decent returns for the company, then yes, it is enough". As far as I know, new WoD games are selling, though I don't have any inside information or data on this. Maybe someone can pitch in and tell us what's going on with WW lately.