Quote from: flyingmiceI thought I killed this thread!

DOESN'T ANYONE RESPECT DEATH ANYMORE?

The thread is like the hobby, the hobby is like the thread. It may wax and wane, but as long as there are people with vivid imaginations and way too much time on their hands it can never truly die.

Quote from: VadrusOn many threads, both here and on other forums, people have stated that they believe the hobby as a whole is dying, but is this actually true?

No.

Quoteblahblahblah too many games

No. Also, no.

Quote from: joewolzI'm one of those punks, and I can't fucking WAIT for that day.  Those nursing home people are gonna be in for a lot of fun...

How old are you and how much time have you spent in a nursing home?

I have a +5 Adult Diaper of Infirmity.

Is the RPG hobby dying? Depends on how you define dying.

I mean, is the hex and counter wargame hobby dying? Still dozens of games being produced every year. Still conventions being held and awards being given out. But take a look at the people attending those conventions - lots of receding hairlines and grey hair. Very, very few regular wargamers under 40 years old. Anyone posting on Consimworld who is under 35 is regarded as a sort of prodigal adolescent.

I believe pen and paper RPGs are following the trajectory of wargames. How many GMs out there under 25 compared to how many are over 30? How many high schools and colleges have active RPG clubs compared to 15 or 20 years ago?

Some famous captain of industry once remarked that if you aren't growing, you're shrinking. Other forms of entertainment are supplanting RPGs for the young gamer demographic. Nothing lasts forever.

That doesn't mean we won't continue to see fine gaming products published for years to come. The wargame hobby continues to publish many excellent games, despite print runs of under 2,000. And many older gamers will continue to play games with their buddies regardless of the state of the industry. But natural attrition will erode the numbers of RPGers without a steady influx of younger gamers. And stories of people playing with their kids aside, I just don't see that influx of younger gamers.

In short, there's no reason to believe RPGs are immune to the same fate that eventually befalls most hobbies.

Quote from: John MorrowHow old are you and how much time have you spent in a nursing home?

I'm not very old, but I used to volunteer at the VA hospital.  You have no idea what some of those guys were like.  I've never been in a more lively place...and then sometimes it wasn't.  I'd prefer to be one of them guys pinching nurses and being loud and obnoxious.  If I'm stuck in a place like that, goddammit I'm gonna smile every day, just like I do now.

Nice handle, Helleyes. I hope you're wrong, not that I lack any love for the hex and counter crowd.

Oh Rubbish!!

 Itsa not dying !! You guys are hanging out with too many pessimists.

 That redheaded 19 year old I referred to a few weeks ago - she is a brand new DM, got inspired and she wrote up first adventure idea all on her own. Though she did stop by the store and ask my co-worker for Dm-ing and story advice.
 She is bright, energetic, joining the Marine Corps ...and she loves RPGs.

 I don't see any "Dying" going on.  I DO see people that maybe need to try and meet more gamers - I know they're out there...y'all just gotta say hi to each other and relax a little.

 Hell if the hobby was "dying" - the store I work at would have closed a year ago and I'd be unemployed right now - but that didn't happen. So, something must be going right with the hobby.

- Ed C.

I think what's happening is/was

If you were into the hobby because you like to collect books, write erotic fan-fiction or otherwise be part of the "fandom" that is usually associated with roleplaying--especially the hobby as it was in the 90s--, then there are certain networks that are obviously dying out (people who want to dress up like vampires, etc), and there are better ways for you to connect to that network of people (fan fiction communtiies, etc). I think some of those people were indeed buying lots of roleplaying books and even showing up at conventions and not really part of anything.

But the actual network of people involved in gaming has remained the same size or possibly grown.

Annoyingly I increasingly think it isn't.

Why annoyingly given I love the hobby?  Because I've argued with Jim-Bob on this topic many times, enough times that I stopped posting to threads where it came up so as to avoid having the discussion again.

And it seems he may have been right all along when he said it was going to survive just fine.

Irksome, but there you go, the rumours of the hobby's demise seem currently to me to be rather exaggerated.

The industry, that's another matter, that's fucked.  Except for WotC and a few other companies which aim squarely at producing fun games for profit and nothing else.

Quote from: HaffrungIs the RPG hobby dying? Depends on how you define dying.

I mean, is the hex and counter wargame hobby dying? Still dozens of games being produced every year. Still conventions being held and awards being given out. But take a look at the people attending those conventions - lots of receding hairlines and grey hair. Very, very few regular wargamers under 40 years old. Anyone posting on Consimworld who is under 35 is regarded as a sort of prodigal adolescent.

I believe pen and paper RPGs are following the trajectory of wargames. How many GMs out there under 25 compared to how many are over 30? How many high schools and colleges have active RPG clubs compared to 15 or 20 years ago?

Some famous captain of industry once remarked that if you aren't growing, you're shrinking. Other forms of entertainment are supplanting RPGs for the young gamer demographic. Nothing lasts forever.

That doesn't mean we won't continue to see fine gaming products published for years to come. The wargame hobby continues to publish many excellent games, despite print runs of under 2,000. And many older gamers will continue to play games with their buddies regardless of the state of the industry. But natural attrition will erode the numbers of RPGers without a steady influx of younger gamers. And stories of people playing with their kids aside, I just don't see that influx of younger gamers.

In short, there's no reason to believe RPGs are immune to the same fate that eventually befalls most hobbies.

I think the wargaming analogy is spot on, wargaming is still alive and well but now it's a more niche hobby than it once was.  That's our fate too IMO.

Whether another hobby, story games or whatever, will bud off from us as we did from wargames I don't know and don't much care to be honest.

Quote from: BalbinusI think the wargaming analogy is spot on, wargaming is still alive and well but now it's a more niche hobby than it once was.  That's our fate too IMO.

Whether another hobby, story games or whatever, will bud off from us as we did from wargames I don't know and don't much care to be honest.

Wargaming's nichetastic position is largely deliberate however, and I don't really see the same effect occuring in RPGs, except maybe with GURPS 4.

Wargames got more and more complicated until eventually they drove out all but the hardest of the hardcore, but contrary to the whining of a lot of people about how "complicated" D&D3 is, that hasn't really happened with the game.  And if the Internet pundits are right, SAGA is the wave of the future for WotC games, and thus future editions will likely be more dumbed down and simplified than the current edition.  White Wolf, with the exception of Exalted, has actually simplified on some level with their newer games.  

GURPS 4 is the closest analog I can see right now, in that they took what was a game with a much wider appeal in regards to the variable complexity of the rules, and instead homed in straight for the hardcore set who just wanted more and more complexity, ultimately resulting in a game that more strongly resembles HERO than it does the previosu edition of GURPS.

Quote from: J ArcaneWargaming's nichetastic position is largely deliberate however, and I don't really see the same effect occuring in RPGs, except maybe with GURPS 4.

Wargames got more and more complicated until eventually they drove out all but the hardest of the hardcore, but contrary to the whining of a lot of people about how "complicated" D&D3 is, that hasn't really happened with the game.  And if the Internet pundits are right, SAGA is the wave of the future for WotC games, and thus future editions will likely be more dumbed down and simplified than the current edition.  White Wolf, with the exception of Exalted, has actually simplified on some level with their newer games.  

GURPS 4 is the closest analog I can see right now, in that they took what was a game with a much wider appeal in regards to the variable complexity of the rules, and instead homed in straight for the hardcore set who just wanted more and more complexity, ultimately resulting in a game that more strongly resembles HERO than it does the previosu edition of GURPS.

You may well be right, I do find 3e complex but as you rightly note if it is it hasn't harmed it any.  And if Saga is the way forward then it will get simpler anyway.

I'm genuinely not sure, I think the wargaming route is a tenable one for us, but I just plain don't know for sure, your scenario seems credible to me also.

I an't seen no Fat Lady singing.

 ...yeah I did a double negative  - so what ?

 Its not dying.

 Zheesh

re: GURPS

It was, and remains, the system of choice for my gaming group, since at least 1988. We've had and used 3e for years and years, and have tons of supplements, etc.

To date, I'm the only one who has bought the core 4e books, and have no plans to buy any supplements (as they call their very pretty and very expensive hardbacks). With 3e, just about any new supplement was a must-have for the massive and growing completist collection our group possesses. No longer.

In effect, SJG got all the GURPS money out of at least 5 players that they're ever going to get. From what I've heard, Munchkin and other games seem to be the cash cow right now anyway, but we all remember how that worked out for some in the 90's. Lots of eggs in one basket.

I think, therefore, that 4e will be a mistake in the long run, simply because they had a good thing going for 15 years with 3e, and I highly doubt the shift to fancy and expensive 4e books with chrunchier rules for the gearheads will attract any new players. They should've just kept putting out good supplements for <=$25 bucks.

But that's just me.