I approve of that sarcasm. It was well-done.

Also, not only do I think the hobby could survive without creepy gamers, I'd like to see us try.

Quote from: David R;255943I disagree. What has given gamers a bad rep ?

I already said, gamers don't have a bad rep. Our hobby is not despised, it's invisible.

Certain things can make it visible, though, both good and bad. They haven't yet, but could.

Quote from: David RNobody - non gamers - is going to take the time to appreciate the difference between an rpg with a dodgy cover (which may have nothing to do with the game itself) and subject matter which may be pretty vile but with a relatively tame cover.

I don't think people in general are that superficial or with such short attention spans. They realise the difference between the cake and the icing. The presentation of things is pretty clear, generally.

Quote from: David RAlso what kind of  dodgy content are we talking about here? Some examples would be good. Leave aside the obvious will ya'...

The "obvious"? I assume you mean Poison'd and the like. That's not very helpful. "Talk about the things you find offensive, while mentioning nothing you've ever found offensive."

Quote from: David RYou don't see how a cover displayed for all to see is more damaging to the hobby than what goes on in discussions sites?

If it were confined to discussion sites, then you'd be right. But these games are played and promoted at cons, which are certainly a place where non-gamers and new gamers see the hobby and form an image of it.

Consider this anecdote of Ed Greenwood sleazing onto some young women gamers. Then throw in dorks creating badges to say whether or not it's okay to ask to grope them, and with all that imagine the game of molesting the corpses of children going on in the corner.

Then imagine a new gamer coming in and seeing that, or some kid's non-gaming parents? Good old Max, perhaps? What image will be formed of the hobby? As it emerges from invisibility, what silhouette will be seen?

Quote from: David RDo non gamers even consider the content of rpgs ?

No. That's why I said that rpgs are as a hobby generally invisible. It's helpful if you respond to what I've written, not some imagined other thing.

Quote from: David RSo what type of games are you talking about here ? [...] Nobody even considers (at least around here) that the designer may want to explore certain themes.

I'm quite certain the designers want to explore certain themes. Misery tourism, sadistic sexual fantasies, and so on.

Quote from: David RSee, this is why I think you're confusing the issue. Seriously what kind of games are out there (even those with risky subject matter ) which are even comparable to the films you mentioned. Are we talking about all Forge games ?

Not all Forger games, no. But they encourage it, as part of their desire to be supershockedgeycool as a substitute for being genuinely interesting and fun.

We've talked about these games many times. My Life With Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, Poison'd, and so on - all present a very dark vision of the world, and give rise to game sessions where the PCs do some really nasty shit.

Quote from: David RYou're not the Pundit so I know you are not just simply saying this, but where exactly are these sexual deviants.

Just look in the Forge's actual play subforums. Or over at 4chan. They're all over the place.

Quote from: David RI know more gamers who play mainstream games in the most vile way and have such a low regard for women (and it shows in their behaviour in public) than folks who play games with risky content and which the majority of gamers have not heard of.

Me, too. But there are two issues. The first is that sexing everything up to sell it is just what Western culture does, so as I said rpgs don't stand out much in that respect; the same applies to a certain low-level misogyny. The second comes from the first, a question of degree, what stands out.

If a game has a picture of some physically impossible woman on the cover, it's just like a zillion magazines or movies and won't be noticed as anything remarkable. If a game regularly gives rise to play involving murdering children and molesting their corpses, then like Saw and so on it'll stand out.

Quote from: David RWhen fucked up games and by fucked up I mean games like FATAL and RAHOWA achieve mainstream success, then yeah I'll say the hobby has been damaged,

I never said the hobby was damaged, or that it would be. I simply said that this sort of shit might be damaging, and certainly dosen't help. Again, responding to what the person wrote and not something else helps conversation along.

Quote from: David Rbut don't expect me to buy into this whole sexual content is ruining the hobby,

And again, I would never say that. There's sexual content and then there's sexual content. Having a game where (say) a couple get together and shag happily is miles away from having a game where someone rapes their ten year old maid with a broomstick.

Quote from: David Rthe thinking around here at least is that they should be chased out of the hobby.

Yes, they should. The catpissmen, the smelly freaks and perverts, the weirdos with zero social skills ought to be mocked, pelted with cheetos and driven from the hobby. Game groups are not group therapy for the socially retarded and deviant.

I take Andy K. at his word when he says he regrets including the offending example of play. The underlying genre has some dodgy elements, as certainly does the original designer's (and his play group's) take on it, but that entails a pretty broad discussion of responsibility in presentation of translated and adapted works.

So to some degree I think the present discussion is taking place under a false pretext.

That said I'm not especially concerned about the publication of a given game causing damage to the image of the wider activity, it's the reception of the game in the subculture itself. If gaming collectively embraced sicko styles of play, then I'd be personally turned off and I'd also seek to distance myself from "the hobby". And by "embrace" I include such things as loud proclamations of tolerance. I'm afraid this may go over some people's heads, but if RPGs are really a neutral medium in se then "the hobby" not only has no business dictating what's tolerable, it also has no business dictating tolerance either. I.e. while I mostly reject the policing of morality "for the good of the hobby", I equally reject using social pressure to shut down individual expressions of (dis)taste. It's this (which I suppose is based on some geek social fallacy or another), that I suspect contributed to the downfall of furry fandom, that "tolerance" became such a core value that the more normal members of the subculture couldn't even muster the will to express personal revulsion at the sicko elements.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;255949I approve of that sarcasm. It was well-done.

Also, not only do I think the hobby could survive without creepy gamers, I'd like to see us try.

Thank you, it is a speciality.

I am also quite confident that this hobby can easily survive the loss of those who use it as a vehicle for sociopathic daydreaming.

[QUOTE="The_Shadow]"I am against RPGs explicitly incorporating sexual elements into the rules" might be better.[/QUOTE]

Like mentioning that people have sex, having seduction skill and such... or having actuall FATAL-like rules for doing it...?

Relevant livejounal post I just made.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;255951I take Andy K. at his word when he says he regrets including the offending example of play.

Sorry, but where exactly does Andy K say this?

RPGPundit

And, more precisely, if it was in the original, how would not including it not be a gross misrepresentation?

See, this is why I get creeped out by a lot of anime - When I learn about the stuff they take out for the NA versions.

Also, I'm getting the same effect with disney fairie tales.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;255950I already said, gamers don't have a bad rep. Our hobby is not despised, it's invisible.

Invisible ? Maybe in Australia but certainly not in the States or even here in Malaysia. You are not aware of the references in pop culture to the hobby ? You are not aware of how D&D gamers are generally mocked as anti social nerds ? Or the kind of groups that pay attention to our hobby....like religious ones ? We are not invisible kyle. And we do have a bad rep.

QuoteCertain things can make it visible, though, both good and bad. They haven't yet, but could.

Like I said we are visible, we are not really a huge hobby but we are definitely on the radar. And most certainly we can make ourselves more visible. I have already described the behaviour and products which would do so.

QuoteI don't think people in general are that superficial or with such short attention spans. They realise the difference between the cake and the icing. The presentation of things is pretty clear, generally.

IMO they are. We are generally a superficial society. Nobody really takes the time to study the issues. We see this in poilitics, the media, most everywhere. Why should it be different when it comes to gaming scene.

QuoteThe "obvious"? I assume you mean Poison'd and the like. That's not very helpful. "Talk about the things you find offensive, while mentioning nothing you've ever found offensive."

Well yeah, I meant, talk about the games that people actually play. I mentioned Exalted and White Wolf games, both which have sexual content. Feel free to mention games that are universally mocked by most gamers or not played or games that most gamers aren't even aware off.

QuoteIf it were confined to discussion sites, then you'd be right. But these games are played and promoted at cons, which are certainly a place where non-gamers and new gamers see the hobby and form an image of it.

It depends on the game. If you're talking about Poison'd, sure. It was a stupid attention grabbing stunt, that did the game and the hobby no favours.

QuoteConsider this anecdote of Ed Greenwood sleazing onto some young women gamers. Then throw in dorks creating badges to say whether or not it's okay to ask to grope them, and with all that imagine the game of molesting the corpses of children going on in the corner.

Exactly, behaviour of gamers and designers. This is what I've been saying. Content does not draw as much attention as behaviour. This is the type of anti social behaviour that gives gamers and the hobby a bad rep.

QuoteThen imagine a new gamer coming in and seeing that, or some kid's non-gaming parents? Good old Max, perhaps? What image will be formed of the hobby? As it emerges from invisibility, what silhouette will be seen?

Gamer behaviour right ? We are not talking about content. I'll just like to add, imagine non gamer parents seeing the kind of dodgy covers out there. The way how some gamers treat women. The booth babes. The list really does go on. I'm not saying that actual plays are not part of the problem, they are but I consider them a part of the anti social behaviour of some gamers.

QuoteNo. That's why I said that rpgs are as a hobby generally invisible. It's helpful if you respond to what I've written, not some imagined other thing.

Well I happen to believe that the hobby is not invisble. And from your convention examples, it's perfectly reasonble to assume that non gamers would not examine the content but observe the fucked up behaviour and conclude that the hobby is filled with social misfits.

QuoteI'm quite certain the designers want to explore certain themes. Misery tourism, sadistic sexual fantasies, and so on.

Well I don't agree your with definitons and would rather concentrate on individual games. I thought the discussion on Grey Ranks was interesting and the game IMO didn't fit any of the categories you mentioned. But then again I'll assume my opinion on the matter really does not matter to you.

QuoteNot all Forger games, no. But they encourage it, as part of their desire to be supershockedgeycool as a substitute for being genuinely interesting and fun.

Okay now you sound like the Pundit. I don't really know how to respond to this. I have found some Forge/Stroygames interesting and others total crap....much like the mainstream games out there.

QuoteWe've talked about these games many times. My Life With Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, Poison'd, and so on - all present a very dark vision of the world, and give rise to game sessions where the PCs do some really nasty shit.

Yeah and....I mean players doing nasty shit in games ain't new. Dark Visions of the world ain't new. Now I understand you have lumped all these games together, but you do realize that players will do terrible stuff in games sometimes without even having to have a context. These games are grim. Why is it so hard to believe that some people may actually like that. These same people are not neccessarily dark and grim in real life, they just like it in their entertianment. I mean I don't think people who like heroic fantasy are necessarily heroic in real life, just that that's the kind of entertainmnet they like.

QuoteJust look in the Forge's actual play subforums. Or over at 4chan. They're all over the place.

That's why so many people have heard of the Forge and their games.

QuoteMe, too. But there are two issues. The first is that sexing everything up to sell it is just what Western culture does, so as I said rpgs don't stand out much in that respect; the same applies to a certain low-level misogyny. The second comes from the first, a question of degree, what stands out.

And what stands out IMO are these types of covers and the behaviour of gamers not the subject matter of the games themselves.

QuoteIf a game has a picture of some physically impossible woman on the cover, it's just like a zillion magazines or movies and won't be noticed as anything remarkable. If a game regularly gives rise to play involving murdering children and molesting their corpses, then like Saw and so on it'll stand out.

This would depend on where the game is sold. If it's sold with all the other girlie mags than you would be right. Some how I don't think they are. Many of them are sold in games shops or in big bookstores, where they are displayed with other gaming products with relatively "normal" covers. I may be wrong on this.

QuoteI never said the hobby was damaged, or that it would be. I simply said that this sort of shit might be damaging, and certainly dosen't help. Again, responding to what the person wrote and not something else helps conversation along.

Well yeah...I mean I never said the hobby is damaged either. We just disagree on exactly what could do damage to the hobby. Although I do concede that I have a particular hate on for dodgy cover art and the sometimes anti social behaviour of gamers.

QuoteAnd again, I would never say that. There's sexual content and then there's sexual content. Having a game where (say) a couple get together and shag happily is miles away from having a game where someone rapes their ten year old maid with a broomstick.

I was addressing the general theme of this thread. I was not refering to anything you said specifically. I should have been clear about that.

QuoteYes, they should. The catpissmen, the smelly freaks and perverts, the weirdos with zero social skills ought to be mocked, pelted with cheetos and driven from the hobby. Game groups are not group therapy for the socially retarded and deviant.

Now who is not addressing what a person actually wrote? I was talking about the hate the Forge and gamers who play Forge games generally get around here. If you really think that they fall under the categories you mentioned, fine. Otherwise address my point. Oh and kyle, I agree that the catpissmen, the smelly freaks and perverts, the wierdos with zero social skills ought to be mocked, pelted with cheetos and driven from the hobby. I do undertand though that if this happens, there will generally be fewer D&D gamers. I'm told this would be bad for the hobby.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI do undertand though that if this happens, there will generally be fewer D&D gamers. I'm told this would be bad for the hobby.

Seeing as D&D comprises the largest portion of the hobby, that's both a rather large slander and innacurate in aspect.

And, personally, as a D&D player I find it offensive.

Also, the title of this thread is deceptive of the actual issue. To demonstrate;

'Is the hobby really THAT fragile that we can't accept creepy wierdos, non-functional sociopaths and sexually obsessed deviants as a legitimate part of the hobby?'

See, the thing is, it has nothing to do with the fragility of the hobby. It has everything to do with the Content of the hobby. And that (The content the title seems to promote acceptance of) is content that I Do Not Want.

Edit: I don't know if that's what you (The original poster) intended, but it was a mistake, nontheless.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;255964Seeing as D&D comprises the largest portion of the hobby, that's both a rather large slander and innacurate in aspect.

And, personally, as a D&D player I find it offensive.

Well it's because D&D is the largest portion of the hobby, I joked that most of the lawncrappers would come form it ( lawncrapery predates the Forge and Storygamers). I mean how many people have even heard of Forge games ? But yeah, you are well within your rights to say that Forge gamers are lawn crappers . I play Forge games, so I guess I should feel a little offended too.

Edit: And in your blog entry you talk mostly of behaviour not content.

Regards,
David R

I have never said that Forge gamers are lawncrappers and I have tried not to imply that.

I'll take this moment, then, to state definitely that there are Forge games I find interesting and would play.

Lastly, the behavior I talk about is the content of the RPG hobby I do not want.

Is that all, or can I have my apology now?

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;255967Is that all, or can I have my apology now?

I apologize if I caused any offense.

QuoteLastly, the behavior I talk about is the content of the RPG hobby I do not want

I was refering to your blog post, which made it seem you were appallled at the acceptability of the anti social behaviour of some gamers. But if you say by behaviour you meant content, fair enough.

Regards,
David R

Edit: Thanks.

More like, by content I mean behavior.

That is to say, if a hobby is filled with sociopaths, then the hobby will be sociopathic.

All should be comprehensible now.