Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257555Hey, I am doing my best here...

Yes, you are, and you should be recognized for that. You are one of the [few] people whose moral stance appears to be consistent and based on thought, and not [only] emotion. Well done.

edit: Why does this sound sarcastic? I have a tone problem. Anyway, just to clarify, I mean this in all seriousness.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257567I see the effects of sexual abuse on children every day.  This is not, by the way, an appeal to authority.  It is a statement that these issues impact real children in very real ways.  We should take that into consideration when we decide what to accept in our lives, in our social setting, and in our communities.

If you think that freedom is the same thing as freedom from the responsibility of having standards, then I don't know what to say.

Here's my problem - pretty much everyone thinks the rape of children is the most vile thing imaginable, regardless of the person's age/gender/race/etc.  Even the nastiest, most brutal murderers and rapists (of adults) in prison reject child rapists (and frequently attempt to murder them in prison out of principle).

So when I get on here and see several of the main posters start saying "what's the big deal about games that promote pedophilia?", I really do think Pundit has a point.  Because if that's where people want to take RPGs, or even just this message board, I'd just as soon find something else to do with my time.

Quote from: David R;257546Also the designer of Carcosa (it could be argued) attempts to hide or at least associate his work with that of other more well respected (in certain quarters) designer(s). So much for recognizing it's "evilness" .

Regards,
David R

It certainly wasn't an effective ploy, for my part.  I have mentioned as much, but I don't think a rather obscure book from a rather obscure game is adequate justification for the excesses mentioned.

To paraphrase Nigel Tufnel; "But, the rape in this game goes to eleven!"  I don't find citing Psycho as an influence for Hostel a particularly compelling defence for torture porn.

Quote from: jgants;257570So when I get on here and see several of the main posters start saying "what's the big deal about games that promote pedophilia?",

Wait a minute. Who are these "main posters" ? And where did they say "what's the big deal about games that promote pedophhilia".

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;257573Wait a minute. Who are these "main posters" ? And where did they say "what's the big deal about games that promote pedophhilia".

Regards,
David R

No one used the exact quote.  But walker and droog, among others, have both essentially said, "what's the big deal?" and classified anyone who actually expressed a dislike of the idea to be puritanical.

This stands in sharp contrast to society everywhere else where if you asked people if they'd be interested in a game with pedophile-themed overtones, you'd likely get the crap kicked out of you.

Quote from: StormBringer;257572It certainly wasn't an effective ploy, for my part.  I have mentioned as much, but I don't think a rather obscure book from a rather obscure game is adequate justification for the excesses mentioned.

Well the designer of Carcosa certainly does (he says so in his blog posting) and quite a few other people, who seem enthusiastic about this particular supplement. But the reason why I brought it up was because I think it's naive to think that Carcosa recognizes the evilness of it's nature by virture of being associated (rightly or wrongly) with this other work.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: jgants;257570Here's my problem - pretty much everyone thinks the rape of children is the most vile thing imaginable, regardless of the person's age/gender/race/etc.  Even the nastiest, most brutal murderers and rapists (of adults) in prison reject child rapists (and frequently attempt to murder them in prison out of principle).

So when I get on here and see several of the main posters start saying "what's the big deal about games that promote pedophilia?", I really do think Pundit has a point.  Because if that's where people want to take RPGs, or even just this message board, I'd just as soon find something else to do with my time.

Here's my problem.  You are taking RPGPundit's rhetoric and accepting it at face value.  1.  Neither of these games "promote" pedophilia.   Maid has a teeny section of the game that has the potential to include it, Carcosa (from my understanding) has it as a part of the worst possible rituals a sorceror, who is not featured as a PC type anyways, can perform.  2. Barely anyone is going to read, let alone play these games and 3. there is a substantive difference between what is played out at the table and what happens in real life.  This is the case for all media.

I don't think there is anyone on this thread who is saying that the pedophiliac elements in these games are neat-o and fun to play.  We are objecting to the idea that someone can decide what is and isn't correct content for a game and who should and should not be allowed to participate in the hobby.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianIf you think that freedom is the same thing as freedom from the responsibility of having standards, then I don't know what to say

Standarts of how to act are necessary for ones survival within society and for society to work. If you break them (for example you murder someone) you will be punished (jailed, executed). However I belive, that having standarts for "what should I imagine" or "what should I fap to" isn't necessary for you.

Quote from: Engine;257554That's the hypocrisy I find so amusing about this. The objectionable portion of Maid is a single report of actual play; the objectionable portion of Carcosa is built into the rules from the ground up. Maid doesn't give you rules for fucking yourself with a broom, or rules for underage sex; it does provide a toolkit that can very easily lead that way if that's your intent, and does include this example of play that everyone's up in arms about, but the point of Carcosa is the existence of these thoroughly evil mages who do much, much worse in ways much, much more explicit, which are laid out clearly in the rules!

And yet there are hundreds of posts condemning Maid, and only a few bothering to condemn Carcosa, and to be honest, I really don't understand why that should be, although some of the suggestions already provided are compelling.

Again, for starters, as far as I can see Carcosa is being self-published, by a lone guy, from his BLOG. Please.

Whereas maid has been published by one of the leaders of the Forge/storygames movement, and counts as one of their "major releases" (meaning it might sell a few dozen copies, which sounds pathetic, but seriously odds are carcosa will sell even less).

So what you're saying is the equivalent of saying that the Blue party is just as bad as the Red party, because while the Red Party has their vice-presidential candidate calling for the blue-party-leader's Death, the blue party has a lone nutcase claiming to represent them doing the same.

Its not equivalent.  I have already denounced the creator of Carcosa, within the limits of what I know about that game, which admittedly aren't much because HE'S A LONE NUTJOB PUBLISHING HIS GAME VIA HIS BLOG.

It seems to me that the Storygamers went looking for this guy, and have now carted him out to try to act as their "shield", as though that somehow covers up for all of their own crapulence.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jgants;257580No one used the exact quote.  But walker and droog, among others, have both essentially said, "what's the big deal?" and classified anyone who actually expressed a dislike of the idea to be puritanical.

This stands in sharp contrast to society everywhere else where if you asked people if they'd be interested in a game with pedophile-themed overtones, you'd likely get the crap kicked out of you.

I argue that "pedophile-themed overtones" is an exaggeration. Those overtones are similar to the overtones of deviant furry sex in any game that has humanoid animals in it, according to RPGPundit.

But even if it does, there are tons of examples in other media of pedophilia-themed overtones that are socially accepted.  Lolita, child beauty pageants, Calvin Klein ads, all French movies.  Yes, they all cause a stir as well, but they aren't the destruction of that medium.

Quote from: walkerp;257583I don't think there is anyone on this thread who is saying that the pedophiliac elements in these games are neat-o and fun to play.  We are objecting to the idea that someone can decide what is and isn't correct content for a game and who should and should not be allowed to participate in the hobby.

And yet you did claim that anyone who didn't approve of an 11 year old maid in a transparent uniform was a "prude", didn't you?

Didn't you, motherfucker?

RPGPundit

Quote from: jgants;257580No one used the exact quote.  But walker and droog, among others, have both essentially said, "what's the big deal?" and classified anyone who actually expressed a dislike of the idea to be puritanical.

This stands in sharp contrast to society everywhere else where if you asked people if they'd be interested in a game with pedophile-themed overtones, you'd likely get the crap kicked out of you.

I would be willing to bet that a lot more people watch maid-type anime than play RPGs. Quite a lot of those will be girls.

If I asked various of my friends about playing a game about anime maids, I imagine some will be right there with sex jokes. I won't be asking them, because I'm really not interested in that genre (I'd rather play Nicotine Girls, which isn't so problematic politically).

I can't be bothered looking Carcosa over properly, but it doesn't look any worse than some of the stuff Moorcock came up with. I seem to remember the Melniboneans torturing slaves for the beauty of their voices as they were dying. For example.

I find a lot of the comments to be prim and pious, not to say priggish.

Quote from: jgants;257580No one used the exact quote.  But walker and droog, among others, have both essentially said, "what's the big deal?" and classified anyone who actually expressed a dislike of the idea to be puritanical.

This is such a misreading.  There are a few reasonable posters who are saying, "there are elements in both of these games that cross my line and that I don't feel comfortable with, but I recognize that they are just a small part of the game and most players will barely touch upon it, if at all."

We are calling puritanical the shrill voices of those who are screaming "burn!  Get these lawncrappers out of our hobby!"

Quote from: droog;257592I would be willing to bet that a lot more people watch maid-type anime than play RPGs. Quite a lot of those will be girls.

If I asked various of my friends about playing a game about anime maids, I imagine some will be right there with sex jokes. I won't be asking them, because I'm really not interested in that genre (I'd rather play Nicotine Girls, which isn't so problematic politically).

I can't be bothered looking Carcosa over properly, but it doesn't look any worse than some of the stuff Moorcock came up with. I seem to remember the Melniboneans torturing slaves for the beauty of their voices as they were dying. For example.

I find a lot of the comments to be prim and pious, not to say priggish.

I have to give you credit, Droog. You at least have the guts to admit to our faces what a degenerate decadent sack of shit you are, and not try to hide it in double-talk and justifications the way Walker or Fritzs do.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;257591And yet you did claim that anyone who didn't approve of an 11 year old maid in a transparent uniform was a "prude", didn't you?

I don't think I did.  And besides, I don't see how that can possibly compare to you talking about feeling up your 70-year old hispanic maid ("for kicks" was how you put it, no?) considering that is actually the real world.

Motherfucker.