Quote from: CavScout;256919You are being intellectually dishonest if you think that authors don’t have intent on how their games are to be played.

I'd be more impressed if I thought you actually knew what "intellectually dishonest" meant, rather than just parroting it from one of my earlier posts.  Unfortunately, you haven't demonstrated anything like the required mental acuity.  Oh well.

QuoteIt is interesting in that you don't want examples of play to be a glimpse at author's intent when it is creepy game play but don't mind it being a glimpse when it is described as "harmless".

No, you're the one who claims the psychic ability to define which are the really real examples and which ones are just a facade of respectability.  I just think that the evidence is inconclusive as to the authors' intent (assuming that the authors do have a preference, rather than intending to leave the choice wholly in the hands of the players).

QuoteLet me just say, a RPG with just one example of an example of pedophilia in a game play example, amongst hundreds of other mundane examples, would be rightfully scorned by that single example.

Then it's a good thing I've scorned it plenty for including that example.  Not terribly swift on the uptake, are you?

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;256934Motherfucker, do us all a favour and read the whole thread.  Then come back and tell us who is arguing what.

Perhaps you are right.  This topic is unsettling to me, so I need to make sure that I am clear.

When a game has only one mode of play that can be interpreted as promoting situations depicting the abuse of child, then that is one too many for me.  Do I think that every copy of Maid be put in a big pile and burned?  No, I do not.  In fact, I believe that the only way to combat evil (and I do not use that term lightly) is to get it out the open where it can properly be shunned.  That is what I think should be done in this case, as well.

If that is also your position, then I apologize for the confusion.


TGA

I suppose what I'm saying is that there are a number of people who will happily buy and play Maid who have no proclivity whatsoever for the really creepy stuff, but will consciously turn a blind eye to it.  I disagree with turning a blind eye to it -- I disagree too strongly for some people's tastes -- but I don't think it follows that everyone or even the majority of people who play Maid are into sexualizing children.  It's possible to draw those brushstrokes too broadly.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;256962I suppose what I'm saying is that there are a number of people who will happily buy and play Maid who have no proclivity whatsoever for the really creepy stuff, but will consciously turn a blind eye to it.  I disagree with turning a blind eye to it -- I disagree too strongly for some people's tastes -- but I don't think it follows that everyone or even the majority of people who play Maid are into sexualizing children.  It's possible to draw those brushstrokes too broadly.

KoOS

Fair enough.


TGA

Quote from: CavScout;256901So, let me get this straight, the perverted examples of play are not an indication of the author's intent but other, non-perverted examples are?

Keep in mind that "Non-perverted" is also a (highly) relative term here.  There's something inherently creepy about grown men sitting around a table together pretending to be teenage sexy maids trying to please their "master", even if they are all playing over-18 character ages.

RPGPundit

To sum this thread up: Some people, most notably Pundy, think, that they own the "RPG" trademark because they enjoy centrain aspect of it (the "trad" aspect), and therefore they need to protect it from harm. This stance is fucking wrong, no you don't own teh hobby, no one does. If you think any game can damage it, ok, nice, say it loudly and proudly, cos that's all you can do about it.

As for sick fucks... I belive, that there is difference between having sick fantasies and doing sick shit IRL. So I belive, that it's perfectly OK, in your fucking fantasies, to sexualize kids, murder¨, neckrape, whatever as long as it remains fantasy. Nothing of it is my cup of tea, cos obviosly deviant fantasies are rare (that's the reason they are called deviant) so if you have them, good luck finding anyone who wants to share. But you find someone, you can play RPG about it and fap to it afterwards. Just don't do it in my home or in any place, where the rules and laws forbids.

As for  "furry" argument. It's shitty and there is only one thing you can do about it, if it's really happening: write fucking blogs about it and argue about it at internet fora and cry, because if it's allready happening, there is no way you can stop it.

Quote from: RPGPunditKeep in mind that "Non-perverted" is also a (highly) relative term here. There's something inherently creepy about grown men sitting around a table together pretending to be teenage sexy maids trying to please their "master", even if they are all playing over-18 character ages.

There is allso something deeply disturbing about grown up men, sitting around the table, pretending to be elfs, trying not to anger their gamemaster, and kill teh dragon.

Quote from: Fritzs;256999There is allso something deeply disturbing about grown up men, sitting around the table, pretending to be elfs, trying not to anger their gamemaster, and kill teh dragon.

Only because your opinions come from a deeply disturbing place.

"You wanna...go out...on a date...or something?"

Quote from: RPGPundit;256992Keep in mind that "Non-perverted" is also a (highly) relative term here.  There's something inherently creepy about grown men sitting around a table together pretending to be teenage sexy maids trying to please their "master", even if they are all playing over-18 character ages.

Agreed.  It has overtones of Sailor Bubba.

But what if it's 3 grown men and 2 grown women?

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;256948I'd be more impressed if I thought you actually knew what "intellectually dishonest" meant, rather than just parroting it from one of my earlier posts.  Unfortunately, you haven't demonstrated anything like the required mental acuity.  Oh well.

Oh dear, not another one of those who thinks they own words if they've ever uttered them.... I bet you're the first person evar! to use that phrase on this forum. You original cunt, you.

QuoteNo, you're the one who claims the psychic ability to define which are the really real examples and which ones are just a facade of respectability.  I just think that the evidence is inconclusive as to the authors' intent (assuming that the authors do have a preference, rather than intending to leave the choice wholly in the hands of the players).

It's not "psychic" to read what the author wrote. It's simply a fallacy to try and claim, as you are, that all examples have to be examples of pedophilia for the "intent" of the RPG to be known.

One play example of it in a book is one example too much regardless of how many other "good" examples there are.

Again, are you still proclaiming that play examples included in an RPG book are not examples of how the game is intended to be played?

QuoteThen it's a good thing I've scorned it plenty for including that example.  Not terribly swift on the uptake, are you?

Tough to tell when folks talk out of both sides of their mouth.

Quote from: CavScout;257020It's not "psychic" to read what the author wrote. It's simply a fallacy to try and claim, as you are, that all examples have to be examples of pedophilia for the "intent" of the RPG to be known.

For someone who keeps repeating the word over and over, you seem to have a problem comprehending what "intent" means.  I understand that for people of your worldview, it appears that repeating a lie over and over again makes it truth, but the rest of us just point and laugh.

Alas, the hazards of arguing with trailer trash over the internet...

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;257022For someone who keeps repeating the word over and over, you seem to have a problem comprehending what "intent" means.  I understand that for people of your worldview, it appears that repeating a lie over and over again makes it truth, but the rest of us just point and laugh.

Alas, the hazards of arguing with trailer trash over the internet...

So one can not infer intent from game-play examples in an RPG but psychically you're able to tell my "worldview", whatever that means, from a few posts here? Fucking amazing, really, it is.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256835However, did you miss the part earlier in this discussion where someone said they wanted to keep "creepy gamers" out of gaming altogether? That's the part that is wrong.  That is the comment which sparked this argument.

Why is it wrong to exclude creepy gamers?

Did you ever see that series of ads, "it's the fish that John West rejects that make the products so good"? Well, it's the gamers we reject that make our game groups so good.

But hey, let's make a deal. We'll reject the creepy gamers, and you can have them. You can have a whole group of creepy gamers. We don't mind. They're all yours.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;257058Why is it wrong to exclude creepy gamers?

Did you ever see that series of ads, "it's the fish that John West rejects that make the products so good"? Well, it's the gamers we reject that make our game groups so good.

Yeah but John West doesn't stop other crappier companies from utilizing those fish.  Some people can only afford that bottom of the barrel seafood.

Again, I'm not talking about excluding them from your own group.  I too would do the same.  I'm rejecting the idea that we should have them excluded from the hobby of roleplaying games entirely.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;257058But hey, let's make a deal. We'll reject the creepy gamers, and you can have them. You can have a whole group of creepy gamers. We don't mind. They're all yours.

No thanks, I'd reject them from my own group just as quick as you would.  Let's make a deal, you reread my posts and understand what I'm getting at.  I really don't see where I'm not making my point clear.

I will not play Maid in my group, nor will I allow people, who want to RP such fetishes, to play with me in my group.  That does not however make it alright for me to assume that the entire gaming community should do the same.  That is not for me to say.  Let them have their own creepy groups full of creepy gamers if that is what they want.

I really can't say it any clearer than that.