Quote from: David R;256764I asked Stormbringer if there were sex acts mentioned in the rules like he suggested.(And of course the neck raping is from the Poison'd AP) Now why don't you take your BS about the destruction of the hobby and peddle it to the believers.

Regards,
David R

I can only refer you to the rules snippet JongWK posted regarding that.  Certainly, the character generation part is a landmine all its own.  As I mentioned, whether or not the Dark option is selected, there should certainly be a filter for certain traits if the age is less than 16 or whatever.  To be on the safe side, I would have programmed in 18 for the minimum age to generate the adult portions of the character.  If nothing else, that would help deflect a majority of the criticisms.  I think Lolicons still bend a bit to the icky end of the spectrum, but consenting adults and all that.

That said, I don't really buy that a blip on the radar like this is going to cause lasting harm to the hobby.  However, avalanches do start with a pebble or two.  While Maid will likely be forgotten six months after we stop talking about it, in the interim, someone may get the impression that this kind of thing sells, and next we will have Rough Nights in Vegas or Zimbabwe Re-location Camp where they don't direct anyone to play 13yr old runaways, but there is that section of the character generation chapter on various reasons you ran away from home at 13.

Fast track to hell?  No, certainly Maid isn't the end of the hobby.  It could represent starting the car for the Sunday drive to the outskirts of hell, and as I have mentioned, I would rather not have more or less innocent bystanders listening in on 11yr olds Passionately Gazing at their Master in their transparent maid uniform and dog collar.  Back in the 80s, it was all hype and hysteria.  This time around, its not hard to see the connection most people would form with RPGs and pedophile-like behaviour.  As mentioned elsewhere on the thread, there are no rape tables in D&D, no molestation xp in Shadowrun, no 'Likes them Young' in Traveller.  You can easily point out that an individual group is acting like sick fucks, and the rules they made up are not indicitive of general play.  Maid and Poison'd, on the other hand, have the sort of thing most people would consider very, very suspect right in the character generation part, and the section JongWK posted from Maid as an example of play.

All in all, Maid and Poison'd are not the kind of games I would want people to associate with RPGs.  I will not hesitate to inform people that these are very fringe games that are generally decried for their subject matter by the general gaming populace.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256799Discrimination is when you judge people as a group (based most often on race or religion) rather than their own individual merits.

The thing is, sometimes membership of a group confers certain merits by definition.  "Gamer who plays Maid" doesn't automatically make you a creep; "furry" does, IMO.

KoOS

Quote from: Fritzs;256672Determining the age of character is last step in character generation and it's not generated by random roll... it's up to you, not up to some fucked up rule of the game.

So it was up to the game designers and translators to include the example about the lolita?

Thank you for conceding the whole point.

Quote from: King of Old School;256822Except nobody's saying that the standards should be the same.

Well, I think some people are, but you're clearly not, which is most excellent.

Quote from: King of Old School;256822Where we disagree is your assertion that fantasy cannot be judged at all.

If that's the impression I've given, I apologize. I've said a lot of things about the difference between reality and fantasy in this thread, and some of them probably contradict each other. I do think you have the right to object to people's fantasies; that's freedom of expression. I don't think we ought to legally prosecute people for their thoughts, but neither do you.

You have the right to think someone is a douchebag based on their fantasies, or their mental illnesses. Hey, I think you have the right to think someone's a douchebag based on their race; I find protection of thought and expression very important for everyone, even intolerant people. But just as you're free to think they're a douchebag, they're free to think little boys are pretty. Neither of you likes what the other one thinks; both of you are free to disagree and to dislike each other.

Now, that means that I am free to think you're a douchebag for thinking things I don't, and you get it in return. And at the end of the day, everyone who disagrees thinks each other are douchebags...and then where the fuck are we? So for my part, I try to be the guy who doesn't judge, and who encourages tolerance...but please don't think that encouragement is requirement. It's still just something I think people should do, and I'm not making you do it any more than you want to make people not play Maid. Even the intolerant have the same right to their opinion as the tolerant, and if I've given the impression I think you're evil [the Inquisition] and I'm awesome [Champion of Freedom], it was most certainly not intentional, and is most certainly not reflected by my own thoughts.

Quote from: King of Old School;256822OTOH, we are claiming the right to say "hey, your douchebag desires make you a douchebag, douchebag!"

You have that right, and you are also right to call douchebaggery on people with douchebag desires.

However, did you miss the part earlier in this discussion where someone said they wanted to keep "creepy gamers" out of gaming altogether?  That's the part that is wrong.  That is the comment which sparked this argument.

Quote from: JongWK;256827So they don't mind making money out of it, then.

 Well, obviously.  What are you getting at?

KoOS

Quote from: Engine;256734[Shadowrun, for instance, specifically forbids players from using blood magic...although nothing stops them from doing so. It also strongly suggests, over and over, that non-lethal attacks are superior to lethal ones, and in fact it makes many non-lethal solutions more effective than the lethal ones; Shadowrun was written in the lee of the "D&D makes you a Satanist" controversy, so they were extra-careful.]

Did you read Loose Alliances and its warning about Fascism?

Quote from: StormBringer;256828Back in the 80s, it was all hype and hysteria.

Like this thread?

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256835However, did you miss the part earlier in this discussion where someone said they wanted to keep "creepy gamers" out of gaming altogether?  That's the part that is wrong.  That is the comment which sparked this argument.

Since I'm the someone, I'll just chime in here and ask you if it was wrong for your team to throw out the creepy guy who was jerking off to Mulan in your theater? He was creepy and you are being a bigot for saying he didn't have a right to exercise his creepiness in your theater.

EDIT:

See what I did there? Using your arguement against you?

Besides, you yourself have admitted that you would not welcome a Maid player into your game group upthread, so you might as well stop pointing out other peoples discrimination since you discriminate yourself.

Quote from: StormBringer;256828All in all, Maid and Poison'd are not the kind of games I would want people to associate with RPGs.  I will not hesitate to inform people that these are very fringe games that are generally decried for their subject matter by the general gaming populace.

Thanks for taking the time to answer Stormbringer and for not infereing any hostility on my part when I have mentioned your comments in some of my other posts. Although I disagree with you on the extent of the damage games like these are to the hobby, as usual I respect your stand on the issue and how you articulated your arguments.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Spinachcat;256839Like this thread?

Well, only if one considers a description of a spell that summons demons the same kind of hype as a ruleset that supports 11yr olds in a dog collar performing broomplay for their 25yr old Master who 'Likes them Young', the specifics of which were censored out of the rule book.

In other words, its only like this thread if someone was a douchebag stretching a point to near breaking to defend sick fucks.

Quote from: Spinachcat;256839Like this thread?

No, in this thread there are gamers who are familiar with RPGs that are talking about games and gamers they do not find acceptable from a stance of experience with the subject matter.

Quote from: David R;256843Thanks for taking the time to answer Stormbringer and for not infereing any hostility on my part when I have mentioned your comments in some of my other posts. Although I disagree with you on the extent of the damage games like these are to the hobby, as usual I respect your stand on the issue and how you articulated your arguments.

Regards,
David R

Thank you, I am also glad I was able to answer your honest questions to your satisfaction so as not to degenerate into a cursing match as well.  I don't take your disagreement with my 'impact assessment' as support for the questionable elements of the game, either, so any mention of 'sick fucks' excludes yourself.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256835You have that right, and you are also right to call douchebaggery on people with douchebag desires.

However, did you miss the part earlier in this discussion where someone said they wanted to keep "creepy gamers" out of gaming altogether?  That's the part that is wrong.  That is the comment which sparked this argument.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "keep out."  If you're talking about some kind of preemptive vetting program by which anyone who peruses a copy of Maid will be banned from gaming in any way, shape or form, then sure.  If you're talking about wishing the creepy people would go away, I don't see a problem.  Again, we're talking about people who are creepy by definition so I don't see anything objectionable about discriminating against their inclusion in our personal activities.

(Also, keep in mind that I don't equate "creepy gamers" with "gamers who have an interest in Maid for any reason."  I equate "creepy gamers" in this case with "people who think sexualizing 10 year old girls sounds like good times.")

KoOS

Quote from: RPGPundit;256787Then why are you wasting time trying to defend it?

Maybe because he doesn't think the entire game should be tried and convicted on the basis of a single example of play whose tone, while deeply repulsive to my own sensibilities, is not reflected in the vast majority of the game's text?

It goes back to the whole "call a spade a spade" argument.  People like Fritzs aren't doing themselves any favours by suggesting that there's nothing untoward about traits like "Likes 'Em Young" or redefining the word "lover" from its common English meaning; by the same token, you're not doing yourself any favours by erroneously assuming that the whole book must be just like that example of play.

KoOS