Quote from: Engine;256721This isn't impossible, of course, but I'm curious what the relative commonality of this might be.

Oh, extremely uncommon in relative terms. But that doesn't make it acceptable, I don't think.

Quote from: Fritzs;256723Engine: If I remember this correctly every class/race combination have it's starting age roll. You don't need to use them, but they are there.

You know, now that you mention it, I do recall a table with that in it. My bad.

Quote from: noisms;256729Oh, extremely uncommon in relative terms. But that doesn't make it acceptable, I don't think.

I suppose that depends on the "it." Does it make the game acceptable, if creepy play is extremely uncommon? I mean, surely there are a fair number of Shadowrun players who murder their way through every adventure, who torture people for information, who even rape to achieve their objectives. It's a game about professional criminals, and in my experience, such criminals tend not to be particularly tender; certainly the people fantasizing about being a Pro are not. Surely D&D has a fair number of players who don't draw the distinction between "I kill only evil things" and "I kill things." Surely the books which provide rules for playing evil characters provide the opportunity for human sacrifice and other distasteful pursuits. I find it difficult to blame the game for its players, although I think many people have made excellent points about being careful about the rules you put in, lest they be abused. [Shadowrun, for instance, specifically forbids players from using blood magic...although nothing stops them from doing so. It also strongly suggests, over and over, that non-lethal attacks are superior to lethal ones, and in fact it makes many non-lethal solutions more effective than the lethal ones; Shadowrun was written in the lee of the "D&D makes you a Satanist" controversy, so they were extra-careful.]

But maybe that's not the "it" you meant. Maybe you mean the creepy play itself. Now, we're all definitely divided on that issue: some people think even fantasy should be limited to the morality of the real world, while others do not. I think there are strong arguments for each, although only one side has really convinced me.

Ultimately - and who didn't see me eventually saying something like this - I think the issue is a complex one, needing lots of information and evidence and judgment, and deserves more than a kneejerk reaction out of ignorance, the sort of, "Maid players are sick assholes" reaction lots of people [not you, noisms] have provided. I really, really think it's important to read the game, particularly before condemning the game itself, as opposed to a distinct minority of its players - if indeed a minority they are; I have no way of knowing. Which is, sort of, the point.

Quote from: CavScoutThe issue is what is a game encouraging not what could one do with a game.

Where does that game say, that you should for maximal enjoyment play twisted sexualy active child?

Quote from: Fritzs;256735Where does that game say, that you should for maximal enjoyment play twisted sexualy active child?

What game? I am not arguing about any specific game. I am arguing against your pathetic attempts to redefine "lover".

Imperator pretty much summed up my feelings. This is a nonissue. So off to discuss something else!

CavScout: OK, lover=somebody you have sex with... if it makes you so happy, I can live with that definition of "lover"... however you still haven't proven that Maid is particulary sick game becuase you can reroll or set different age. Or undersand something slightly different under "lover"...

Quote from: King of Old School;256650Maybe in Knoxville TN, but where I live the reaction would range from "don't really care about moral outrage" to "hells yes!"  Frankly, my FLGS carries stuff that makes Maid look like Pokemon (which FTR is one of the reasons I believe that Maid is meant to appeal in part to creepazoids).  Dude, you need to venture outside the Bible Belt once in a blue moon...

KoOS

Considering that there is a feeling of creepiness about Maid from all corners of the globe, you're attempt at marginalizing this opinion (which includes your own) by alluding geographic location is made of fail.

Here's a question, who here reading this doesn't think that Maid will attract creepy gamers?

Because it seems that the overwhelming majority think that Maid will attract creepy gamers. Our debate seems to be about what we feel should be done about it.

Quote from: jeff37923;256751Considering that there is a feeling of creepiness about Maid from all corners of the globe, you're attempt at marginalizing this opinion (which includes your own) by alluding geographic location is made of fail.

The whole thread is made of fail.  

It has people honestly arguing that you shouldn't discriminate against people who get off on kiddy-porn because that's just one aspect of their personality.

It has people who claim that a game book that includes an example in the rule book of an 11 year old getting sodomized with a broom stick is somehow good, clean fun.

It has people who claim that words like "lolita" and "lover" aren't intended to taken with a sexual context.

It has people who don't understand why you wouldn't want to be associated with pedophiles in your hobby.

It has people who claim that it is hypocritical to express disgust at a fictional representation of something unless you are actively working against that same thing in real life.

And best of all, it has people honestly claiming that if you find the sexualization of pubescent or even pre-pubescent girls disgusting and perverted then somehow you are exactly the same as Jerry Fallwell.

Why did we even bother to chase off that one guy?  Apparently all kinds of people share his views.  Perhaps we should put up a poll to see how many people here support NAMBLA?

Quote from: Fritzs;256638If I remember correctly, you have to fill the age window on the chargen, so playing 11 years old character is entirely your option... and, because age doesn't mean anything in this game you can allways change it.

You say that again, but somehow we all know that there will be FAR more people playing under-18 maids than, say, over-40 maids.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David R;256639Well this still does not fall into "imagining all the ways an eleven year old can perform sex acts" terrain. No doubt the bolded parts of your post, displays a lot of innuendo, but sex acts ?

Its only a matter of time. I guess the 10-year-old-with-broomstick incident and the dead-cabin-boy-being-neckraped incident wasn't quite enough for you?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;256762Its only a matter of time. I guess the 10-year-old-with-broomstick incident and the dead-cabin-boy-being-neckraped incident wasn't quite enough for you?

RPGPundit

I asked Stormbringer if there were sex acts mentioned in the rules like he suggested.(And of course the neck raping is from the Poison'd AP) Now why don't you take your BS about the destruction of the hobby and peddle it to the believers.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Engine;256683Then D&D is out. You can certainly play a 10 year old servant girl wearing whatever you want. Shadowrun is out; there's nothing that stops you from playing a 10 year old maid in see-through latex.

Actually, technically, most versions of D&D have players roll for their character's age, and there's no way to be a 10 year old, but I realize that wasn't your point.

My response to your actual point is that the THEMATIC of the game does not include any kind of genre elements that would make it thought to be "normal" to play a 10 year old maid in Shadowrun or D&D.  It is however "normal" in the genre of Maid to play a 10 year old maid, apparently. Its EVEN INCLUDED IN A MOTHERFUCKING EXAMPLE OF PLAY. You could say it is all but ENCOURAGED.

So the argument about this that its just like any other game falls utterly motherfucking flat to anyone who isn't making a gargantuan monumental effort to try to deny the common sense that anyone else could see.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David R;256764I asked Stormbringer if there were sex acts mentioned in the rules like he suggested.(And of course the neck raping is from the Poison'd AP) Now why don't you take your BS about the destruction of the hobby and peddle it to the believers.

Regards,
David R

But there is objectionable material in the book itself.  Here's what Jong quoted on Pundit's blog:

QuoteBecause in the book, they set up the child character as being 10, and
wearing a transparent uniform. They set up the other character as 26,
and having the 'Likes them young" trait.

After the 10 year old starts riding the broom there's a section that
reads: "As for what's going on here, we'll leave it to the reader's
imagination." and a few sentences later: "The events of the next two
minutes of gameplay should not be printed here..."

Does that really sound innocent to you?

Quote from: walkerp;256701I would expand on Imperator's dead-on rant by suggesting that Maid also falls completely below the radar of actual child molestors as well.  What the fuck are they going to do with a geeky roleplaying game when they've got actual pictures, videos and often the real thing?  Depressing and disgusting thought, but basically true.

And you all disagree with my stance on human beings.

Why do modern furry-fans love all those drawings of underage furs having sex?

There is a spectrum of deviant sex just like any other kind of sex; probably a lot of furries wouldn't ever actually do anything to a real kid. But they wank off to images of cheetah-girls being raped or whatever.  And of course, what's most important to them is that they are "a community", that there's a place where their unrestricted impulses, even the most crapulent of those, are embraced  and "accepted" by their fellows.

That's where the Forge games are leading us to.

RPGPundit