Quote from: Casey777;255881From the First Fantasy Campaign's inclusion of slaves as a pleasure category (female slaves categorized as red or white silk), the magical item Entertainer ("Any jolly you ever wanted, and some that might kill you"), women ("slaves of the appropriate type (left to player)") as one of the special interests gp is spent on before xp is rewarded, and Egg of Coot's creed starting with "Might is Right" and continuing on for some time before going into a summary / fade to black since "the rest of the Creed is a bit too strong for our gentile readers and deal with certain "Breeding priviledges and customs"."...

At least in my experience, there's now a quiet consensus that that stuff is weird and gross.

Quote from: Age of Fable;255882 There must've been hundreds of homebrewed prostitute classes...each one the most hilarious and original thing ever.

Laugh? We nearly died!

14-YEAR OLD NERD (short of breath from laughing so hard): Oh my God you guys, I'm gonna make a book of rules...about sex!

OTHER NERDS: (much laughter and shouting) That's the best idea ever! Tables for herpes! What if a giant did it with a pixie! You should write that down! (&c)

(the camera pans around the faces at the table. It stops at a crisply smiling JOHN MALKOVICH)

JOHN MALKOVICH: Oh, no need to write it down. (he smiles in a sinister fashion) I'll remember. Come fellows, let us continue our game.

(The camera moves to a notebook in JOHN'S hands, which he's holding under the table, out of sight of the others. Covering an entire page, he writes in a bold hand:  'BOOK OF EROTIC FANTASY')

Someone already beat me to one of the images, but...


... looks like sexualization of RPGs began with the very first RPG publication ever...

... and that same publication details the origin of the swine as well! Prophetic!

There is no room for fools that wish to make RPGs into a second Furry Fandon.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255852Dude. You just gone done D) Luckily squirrels aren't that controversial.

Honestly, if you look at the titles and your responses, I fit your "reviled" game designer. Highly focused, narrow play that forces you into such by "into fucked-up territory via the text, actual plays, rules and tone are vastly different to games where that sort of stuff could happen". I have had this accusation leveled at me almost word for word. With just a bit of addition and not really much change to your written statement, I and my squirrel games can be included in the renunciations. I am more inclusive I guess but I would agree, just as people generally do not have sex on public streets, you probably do not want to play make believe sex in a public place. It is impolite.

However, if you are going to denounce "forgie" game designers then you had best be prepared to denounce me and my "weird" games.

And no, I am not a forgie.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;255895Honestly, if you look at the titles and your responses, I fit your "reviled" game designer. Highly focused, narrow play that forces you into such by "into fucked-up territory via the text, actual plays, rules and tone are vastly different to games where that sort of stuff could happen". I have had this accusation leveled at me almost word for word. With just a bit of addition and not really much change to your written statement, I and my squirrel games can be included in the renunciations. I am more inclusive I guess but I would agree, just as people generally do not have sex on public streets, you probably do not want to play make believe sex in a public place. It is impolite.

However, if you are going to denounce "forgie" game designers then you had best be prepared to denounce me and my "weird" games.

And no, I am not a forgie.

Bill

Really? you can't see the difference of his argument?

If you took your games and used those tactics to go into territory more questionable than squirrels, then, perhaps, you could claim to be the martyr.

Well, I haven't seen Freedom Squirrel - but I still doubt you went there...

Quote from: HinterWelt;255895Honestly, if you look at the titles and your responses, I fit your "reviled" game designer. Highly focused, narrow play that forces you into such by "into fucked-up territory via the text, actual plays, rules and tone are vastly different to games where that sort of stuff could happen". I have had this accusation leveled at me almost word for word. With just a bit of addition and not really much change to your written statement, I and my squirrel games can be included in the renunciations. I am more inclusive I guess but I would agree, just as people generally do not have sex on public streets, you probably do not want to play make believe sex in a public place. It is impolite.

However, if you are going to denounce "forgie" game designers then you had best be prepared to denounce me and my "weird" games.

And no, I am not a forgie.

Bill

I suggest you read it all again, Bill.

I'm not denouncing "forgie" game designers, for a start.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255897I suggest you read it all again, Bill.

I'm not denouncing "forgie" game designers, for a start.

But it could be read as a general denouncement of narrow focused games. I mean, yeah, I get it, you are saying games like Fatal do no good for the hobby. I just am not in the camp that such games destroy the hobby. I think most folks just get pissed when things change. People ar elike that for some reason. They want static, status quo lives with just enough illusion of change that they can call themselves progressive. The bad news for these folks is that things evolve. This hobby is going to evolve. I truly do not see it becoming a den of child porn and pedophiles though. Experiments will happen like this. Does it really matter? Do you think any more people know about Maid than Squirrel Attack!? The majority of the hobby(and I mean 99%) is DND or clones of DND. Even Vampire is really just a slight variation on a traditional DND campaign with lords, ridiculously powered individuals and  "horrible" monsters.

That said, I still think from a lot of what you said, a trad game designer and some of the more trad products out there could fit your definitions of unacceptable.

Now, I fully admit I may be misreading your post but that is how I see it. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Bill

Quote from: James J Skach;255896Really? you can't see the difference of his argument?

If you took your games and used those tactics to go into territory more questionable than squirrels, then, perhaps, you could claim to be the martyr.

Well, I haven't seen Freedom Squirrel - but I still doubt you went there...

I am not claiming to be any matyr. I am claiming that Don is painting with broad brush that will nail some of us that make games that go "into fucked-up territory via the text, actual plays, rules and tone are vastly different to games where that sort of stuff could happen".

Now, he might not have meant to include games that do not deal with similar apporaches but "fucked-up territory" is kind of vague.

I will also admit that his phrasing touched a nerve with me as I have had people direct this kind of crap at me. "Oh noes! you are a furry!!!" kind of crap. I am saying, perception can be a dangerous thing.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;255899That said, I still think from a lot of what you said, a trad game designer and some of the more trad products out there could fit your definitions of unacceptable.

I've said as much before - not sure in this thread, but i agree with you - which is why i said i'm not denouncing "forgies". I'm trying to stress the difference between author responsibility and player responsibility.

I won't double post and quote from your 2nd post. I don't want a fight with you Bill, because i don't think there is one. I'm sorry that some folk have misrepresented your games.

There are some, IMO, that cannot be misrepresented.

I'm kinda tired of re-posting and re-posting what i mean. Maybe i'm not being clear enough, but i think i've re-stated it enough times that my meaning should be clear by now.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255901I've said as much before - not sure in this thread, but i agree with you - which is why i said i'm not denouncing "forgies". I'm trying to stress the difference between author responsibility and player responsibility.

I won't double post and quote from your 2nd post. I don't want a fight with you Bill, because i don't think there is one. I'm sorry that some folk have misrepresented your games.

There are some, IMO, that cannot be misrepresented.

I'm kinda tired of re-posting and re-posting what i mean. Maybe i'm not being clear enough, but i think i've re-stated it enough times that my meaning should be clear by now.

Sorry, I did not mean to harass you.

Bill

As another example of a recent release, this from the retro-clone "movement", Carcosa.  I respect the author and get that he's being true to his source material. But if the actual play and book description are any indication it's as potentially squicky as Maid if not moreso. Children victims, human sacrifices, Cthulhoid monsters for starters.

Quote from: Age of Fable;255883At least in my experience, there's now a quiet consensus that that stuff is weird and gross.

Right, and the actual Maid replay in question* crosses a personal squick line I'd not want crossed, but this idea that it was never there until oh, 1991, and that only (insert favorite target) has examples of it is disingenuous. The "Dragonlance killed RPGs" conspiracy theory holds more water than that this will, though I hardly subscribe to it either. And thanks for the reminder of d20's BoEF.

Quote from: droog;255880I'll take #3. But seriously, folks: society at large doesn't give a shit about 'the industry'. They barely know it exists.

This. RPGs haven't been a blip on the collective radar since 1986 or earlier, which had nothing to do with Swine or sexualization. Wargaming, historical miniatures and model trains haven't declined to either either. If people do find RPGs it's mainly through (mostly crap) novels or computer games. While the year is no longer 1974, it's no longer 1984 either.


* even though the replay uses none of the optional rules, the broom bit is between two PCs, and is initiated by a fellow female maid (not a male master) re: teasing (not rape); the replay also seems to involve more "player/PC must go along with something they'd rather not because there's no choice" than I prefer; if the translated game as is not a straight unabridged version anyway of the Japanese original, I'd much prefer that they'd left this out as well.

Quote from: HinterWelt;255905Sorry, I did not mean to harass you.

Bill

You're not harassing me.

I simply don't want a fight with you, where one doesn't exist.

Quote from: walkerp;255811I just find it depressing to find all this kneejerk moralism in a scene that was once such a targeted victim of kneejerk moralism.

Not in my country. That "D&D is Satanist!" nonsense was largely confined to the USA.

Quote from: walkerpIt's like the christian right ended up infiltrating gaming instead of trying to shut it down.

Yes, because only the Christian right thinks that murdering children and molesting their corpses is okay, a la Poison'd. The Christian right is also very much against keeping women submissive and confined to the home,a la Maid.

Quote from: One Horse TownIn an interactive medium such as RPGs, the author has no such control as to how his creation will eventually be used - therefore, the buck stops with him as to how the tone of the game turns out.

Of course. I've always said that the credit and the blame for everything which happens at the game table lies with the players. Game rules and content do not determine but do encourage certain types of play; if they had no affect at all on play, there would be no reason to ever own more than one set of rpg rules.

Quote from: David RAfter all the Elmore, Caldwell and Mongoose art is there any doubt that this hobby isn't sexualized ?

There's a difference between having some sexy content and being sexualised. It's like the difference between a drama movie with a quick shot of a couple having sex, or glimpse of six-pack abs on a hot guy, and a porno. In one meal it's a flavouring, in another it's the main course.

Quote from: HinterWeltI just am not in the camp that such games destroy the hobby.

They may, or may not - I don't know. But they don't help.