Quote from: Fritzs;256646Kyle Aaron: Definition of "lover"... "One, who loves one another, especially sexual love"... especially=/=necessarily, so I thing it's OK.

And since you can determine character's age "as you wish" this is hardly a problem on the side of game. You can for example have 8 years old gangster in Shadowrun in you wish so.

When you've had to begin with definition parsing, you've already lost. "Lover" implies a sexual relationship. You certainly wouldn't call people you love, like siblings or parents, "lovers".

CavScout: The point is, that in this game you can determine the age of your character as you wish and you can reroll as you wish, so if you've roll "lover" for your 8 years old maid, you can change her age or reroll the result. Anyway, the character generator in the game (not the one on in the link) determines age and name of your character after the rolls not before, so if you rolled "lover" you can choose suitable age for your character.

Congratulations to everyone on this thread for such a massive trainwreck without trains, railways and nothing but thin air. 422 post full of righteous fury, acussations of perversions, puritanism, mad ramblings, shit flinging, and assorted nonsense. Once more the Internet achieves the impossible: to create a nonexistent threat to a nonexistent entity like the hobby, the industry, or whatever the fuck you wanna call it, and argue a lot about the nonexistent consequences to everyone.

My special congratulations go, as usual, to the RPGPundit and the rest of the Shitehead Commando, always on the watch for a chance to build some Internet cred between the 4 monkeys that care about Internet RPG messageboards. Dude, you really should work for the Bush administration. You are a talent to discover.

As always happens, you all overestimate the relevance of Internet for gamers. Let me put it in few words:

No one gives a flying shit about you and your hobby, starting for the people who plays RPGs.

Most gamers out there don't attend cons, so they neither know nor care about what's going on at any con. Their gaming is not affected by that. Most gamers don't visit messageboards because they don't care about the "Internet discussion." We (the people who discuss shit in messageboards) don't exist for most gamers.

But the same thing happens when it comes to publishers: even when they are active part of Internet discussions, they create and design their products without paying any mind to shit said here. That runs true from WotC (did you really think that the discussion here or anywhere else had any significant weight on the 4e design?), to the last small-press guy out there. Do you really think anything said here, or at The Forge, or RPG.net changes shit? Talk about self-perceived importance, here. Pundit, do you really think that your stupid rants here an in your blog (specially your recycled rants) prevent someone from designing or playing any game that you rail against?

And of course, the people who won't play RPGs are not making any difference between D&D and Maid because for them both are just nerdy shit. For the average non-gaming person, a gamer is automatically into all kinds of nerdy shit. As soon as someone knows that I play RPGs, they assume that I like anime, for example. Which I hate and consider retarded by default. But they don't give a shit, and they are not investigating to know more.

The only purpose all this noise really serves is to provide fucknuggets with stupid online persona like the RPGPundit, Sett and the like to feel self-importance, like all their dickwaving and chest-beating and peeing all over the others matters a bit.

You are getting worried about a retarded game who will be bought by a hundred persons tops, played by less than the half of those persons, and that won't be a blip on the radar to 99% of the gamers who, to pay notice to that game should (a) take part in these retardation festivals of discussions or (b) attend to a con where this game is demoed. That's not happening. And of course, nobody outside gamers is going to even imagine the existence of such a stupid thing. In 3 months no one will remember this shite, except for the Shitehead Commando who will bring this from time to time to try to prove that they have scored some imaginary victory in their imaginary war. But I'm also sure that, when that moment comes, you all will have found another imaginary threat under your beds to be scared or indignant about.

Pundit, you are really Ron Edwards in disguise. There's no other possible explanation for your behaviour. You have done more for bringing that unknown games to the dim spotlight of Internet than anything the Forge could have done. Also, both of you are elitist pretentious snobs, manifest delusional ideas and try to build cults of followers around you. Though, I feel that the Edwards
identity's been more successful at that. You gotta work harder on that, Pundit.

Someone should write a timeline of the Swine Wars, including all the times Pundit was banned from sites for being a stupid troll, the schism when Sett tried to outpundit the Pundit and declared War on English and Coherent Thought, and all the stupidities and outrages. Maybe comparing all that fundamental historical events with the real outcomes of them (zero) would bring some perspective on the matter.

Pundit / Ron Edwards, please never stop making the Internet a crazy place.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256641"... you had a lover once..."

I don't like the idea of the maid game, but in fairness that word might be a translation of the Japanese koibito (恋人), which doesn't necessarily imply sex to the same extent that the English word 'lover' does.

It often does imply sex, of course, but it might also be possible to describe an 8-year-old girl's 8-year-old sweetheart as her 'koibito'.

This is a big stretch, but it always pays to be careful with translations. Also, bear in mind that the English version has been translated by an amateur - he's working on an MA in translation, but that doesn't mean a lot.

Quote from: ImperatorSomeone should write a timeline of the Swine Wars, including all the times Pundit was banned from sites for being a stupid troll, the schism when Sett tried to outpundit the Pundit and declared War on English and Coherent Thought, and all the stupidities and outrages. Maybe comparing all that fundamental historical events with the real outcomes of them (zero) would bring some perspective on the matter.

That would be awesome reading... is anyone going to write it...? Noone...?

Time to kick this horse shit into Off Topic, surely?

(In answer to the question, "No, but some of the individuals involved appear to be.")

Ned

Quote from: noisms;256664I don't like the idea of the maid game, but in fairness that word might be a translation of the Japanese koibito (恋人), which doesn't necessarily imply sex to the same extent that the English word 'lover' does.

I didn't translate it, so I wouldn't know.

But that's the version we have. I don't really care what the original said, we're dealing with the version all of us here can read, the one in English. Far as I know, English is the native language of the guys who translated the thing, so they know what the word means in our language. So there was obviously a certain context and feel they were aiming to get across.

Children with lovers in their past. And with all the talk of heartbreak and reactions to that heartbreak, children who have adult feelings about those lovers, who can reflect and so on. Which is exactly one argument of paedophiles, that children can and do understand what they're doing if they give their consent to sexual acts.

Sure, you could just write in your character's age and make her an adult, or ignore those rules. Likewise, you could take FATAL and play without the anal circumfrence rules, or at least the "infant" modifier to them. But probably it's easier just to bin the fucking thing.

Quote from: David ROr are you saying that Andy K & Co, purposely created/translated a game for pedophiles ?

As much as Vincent Baker purposely created a game where you kill children and molest their corpses, or you kill someone else so you can rape his victim instead of him.

That is, they're not really interested in attracting actual paedophiles and murderers, but they want to have a nice comfortable experience sitting in their loungerooms imagining nasty shit with a bit of a giggle, and revel in being supershockedgeycool.

Quote from: David RYou put "Mythusmage" and "defending this nonsense", in the same post when refering to me, after all I did was ask, for some clarification from Strombringer about comments he made about the game being discussed and after my comments esp in my last post ? You know what kyle, go fuck yourself.

I wasn't implying anything about you. When have you known me to imply anything? I just come out and say it.

I just don't understand why you're trying so hard to defend this vile puerile shit, shit you'd never let happen in your game group. Just because we condemn one game and the people getting their jollies from playing it does not mean we're going to slip down that slope into a police state.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256667Children with lovers in their past. And with all the talk of heartbreak and reactions to that heartbreak, children who have adult feelings about those lovers, who can reflect and so on.

Out of curiosity, would it help if the book used the word "boyfriend" instead? Because then you'd have exactly the same situation as in all the shoujo manga out there, including Sailor Moon.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256667*snip*

I actually mostly agree with you; I was just playing devil's advocate really. I wouldn't want to defend Maid, but I think the situation is slightly more nuanced.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256667As much as Vincent Baker purposely created a game where you kill children and molest their corpses, or you kill someone else so you can rape his victim instead of him.

That is, they're not really interested in attracting actual paedophiles and murderers, but they want to have a nice comfortable experience sitting in their loungerooms imagining nasty shit with a bit of a giggle, and revel in being supershockedgeycool.

Did Vincent actually purposely create this game* or did players create the play you described ? Because like I said earlier, the sin system is complex and I acknowledged that the setting/system is bleak. If anything all you can accuse Vincent of is revelling instead of condenming the juvenile behaviour in the actual play. Would you say the same thing about the WW system and crew (or even UA for that matter) if an example of play surfaced with the same kind of fucked up play ?

Oh really, not attracting pedophiles ? Then why the fuck are the Pundit and you so outraged. If all a game like this does is attract pretentious twats , why the outrage. You think the hobby is devoid of them at the moment ?

QuoteI wasn't implying anything about you. When have you known me to imply anything? I just come out and say it.

I just don't understand why you're trying so hard to defend this vile puerile shit, shit you'd never let happen in your game group. Just because we condemn one game and the people getting their jollies from playing it does not mean we're going to slip down that slope into a police state.

If you weren't implying anything, why mention someone like Mythusmage ? If you weren't implying anything why say I was defending the game when I asked Strombringer for clarification about his comments ?

And where was I defending this vile pure shit ? It goes back to what KoOS said about intellectual dishonesty. Don't ignore the fact that this game has some really dodgy elements at the same time don't make up shit that is not in the game.

When the whole Poison'd AP nonsense first started, I sent out links of the discussion to some of my very conservative gamer friends. I mean conservative in the social sense and also in the games they play - only D&D with some old school SF stuff. They don't even approve of White Wolf games. The same goes for a game like UA. I admit, I sent them the links hoping to cause a little frisson.

You know what their collective response was ? A collective yawn of disinterest. You know why ? It seems over the years they had seen the same or worst  kind of stuff happening in games that they like and play.

So you go ahead kyle, throwing about your venom - emo, misery, shockededgysupercool or whatever - and I'll just remember that any kind of reasobale discussion with you is impossible because of your perceptions of people who may actually like stuff from the Forge and storygames. Some of their games are very interesting some are lame, IMO.

And btw, I have played a few Forge games with a group who are nothing like your description of Forge gamers. I doubt I'm alone here. You talk about Forgers being insular in their gaming, maybe it's you who should open your eyes a little instead of fueling the Pundit's BS war.

Edit:
*A game of killing children and molesting corpses.

Regards,
David R

David R nails it, again.

Quote from: David R;256670You know what their collective response was ? A collective yawn of disinterest. You know why ? It seems over the years they had seen the same or worst  kind of stuff happening in games that they like and play.

Quoted for truth.

QuoteSome of their games are very interesting some are lame, IMO.

Exactly. I like Sorcerer, Universalis, PtA and Dogs in the Vineyard. I don't give a shit about Poison'd, Grey Ranks or It Was a Mutual Decision, and think they are an utter waste of time, so probably I won't play them. Th same happens with the "mainstream" games, whatever the fuck they are.

QuoteAnd btw, I have played a few Forge games with a group who are nothing like your description of Forge gamers. I doubt I'm alone here.

No, you are not alone. The same group of sane, well-adjusted players I play with will take a CoC game as a DitV game. Most of them don't see any difference between them. Clue: because there is none. Sorry, Ron Edwards and V. Baker.

Quote from: Kyle AaronChildren with lovers in their past. And with all the talk of heartbreak and reactions to that heartbreak, children who have adult feelings about those lovers, who can reflect and so on. Which is exactly one argument of paedophiles, that children can and do understand what they're doing if they give their consent to sexual acts.

Sure, you could just write in your character's age and make her an adult, or ignore those rules. Likewise, you could take FATAL and play without the anal circumfrence rules, or at least the "infant" modifier to them. But probably it's easier just to bin the fucking thing.

Determining the age of character is last step in character generation and it's not generated by random roll... it's up to you, not up to some fucked up rule of the game. But you might be upset by the fact, that there is no rule, that would disallow you to create child character with centrain traits, but then you must feel the same wrath towards such trad games as GURPS or Shadowrun. Or you must be hypocrite.

Quote from: Imperator;256671No, you are not alone. The same group of sane, well-adjusted players I play with will take a CoC game as a DitV game. Most of them don't see any difference between them. Clue: because there is none. Sorry, Ron Edwards and V. Baker.

Yeah, this is exactly my experience. You phrase it better though.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Fritzs;256646Kyle Aaron: Definition of "lover"... "One, who loves one another, especially sexual love"... especially=/=necessarily, so I thing it's OK.

You're not helping your case here. You've just pulled down a definition that states the normal way to take the term is the way that it's been interpreted.

Quote from: RPGPundit;256558I would say its pretty freaking logical to figure that someone who is a fanatic of a game where you can play a 10 year old girl-maid wearing a transparent uniform (never mind all the other stuff) might not be the best choice for babysitting your 10 year old girl, REGARDLESS of any other qualifiers.

Then D&D is out. You can certainly play a 10 year old servant girl wearing whatever you want. Shadowrun is out; there's nothing that stops you from playing a 10 year old maid in see-through latex. Ultimately, it's about what the player chooses; Maid isn't about playing sexually-active young girls, so far as I can tell, although various combinations of the rules can get you there if you try. Certainly, people have chosen to play this way, but those people made that choice; "10 year old whore" isn't a character class, so far as I know.

Of course, I'd love to tell you for certain, to read the game and thus be informed, unlike many of us right now, but my lack of desire to spend actual money on something so silly is proving detrimental.

Quote from: Age of Fable;256582Maybe - but surely the people responsible for translating it and putting out an English-language edition would've thought about how it was going to be received?

I can't speak for those people, although they've spoken for themselves elsewhere. Frankly, as far as I can tell, the translators though they were making a light-hearted anime comedy game, but also decided to include one of the expansions from the original game, which included these sex rules that have proven so controversial. Whether age and sexuality is dealt with in the translation or the original is unknown to me; if I ever manage to obtain a copy of the work, I'll have more information on which to base my opinions.