Quote from: jeff37923;256567Yes. Yes it is.

And I'm OK with that.

Cool, I can respect that then.

Quote from: jeff37923;256567Your Prohibition analogy is too far of a stretch because I'm not asking for an Amendment to the Constitution against creepy gamers.

Yeah I have a tendancy to use examples that are sometimes a bit much but the point is still there.  Would you ask for a constitutional amendment against it if you thought it would work?  Keeping them out of the hobby is just as strong, may as well go all the way if you want to go that far.

Quote from: jeff37923;256567I consider creepy gamers to be an annoyance, one that this hobby can do without. I won't let the creepy gamers just be themselves because when people think about the RPG hobby, it is the creepy gamers that they use as the example. I do not want to grouped with creepy gamers as representatives of the RPG hobby.

In that, I agree that I am concerned over the effect of creepy gamers on my hobby.

Yes, but you're better than them right?  Why not focus on showing people that you are a better person than the people you dislike, rather than taking the time to point out why they are to be disliked?

Quote from: jeff37923;256567As to your allusion to homophobia, that is just a cheap theatrical attempt to demonize my position. It grants you a well-earned Go Fuck Yourself.

Don't get worked up now.  Probably should have just kept my mouth shut but I thought it was funny (not homophobia, that's asinine.)

What I meant was that homophobic people make complaints and then back up their complaints with discrimination as if their prejudice makes them right.  It had nothing to do with gay people or your opinion of them.

This discussion is getting too salty and I'm not helping, so I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Quote from: jeff37923;256567I'm fine with my discriminating opinion. It serves me well.
You are the one with a heartache over it.

Godwin.

My heartache is over the fact that someone with so much to say would waste breath on something so full of discrimination when there are other ways to express your opinion of which I am convinced that you are capable.  Be the better man, rise above discrimination is all I'm hoping for.

It's hard to do, I have my own issues with discrimination but I'm trying to be the better man.

Quote from: jeff37923;256570I'm assuming the "he' you are referring to is me.

And as I've said above, I don't care if you choose to hang out with creepy gamers, just don't be surprised when everyone else leaves.

For myself, because that is the only person I can really speak for, I choose to be discriminate and intolerant of the creepy gamer or any other gamer who brings detriment to this RPG hobby. I'm perfectly OK with doing that.

I wouldn't game with them either, but you said keep them out of the hobby as a whole.  Were you just saying you didn't want them at your table then I'd have never spoken up.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256561Ah but I don't pick who I hang out with based on what RPGs they play, or what car they drive, or what music they listen to.  I judge people based on their actions and as an individual on a case by case basis.

How is "picking which RPGs they play" not an action on their part? Someone who chooses to play Schutzstaffel: The adventures of camp guards and enjoys PCs who get favors based on the number of Jews run through the crematorium is going to find themselves outside my circle of friends. Perhaps you wouldn't toss them out, but I would and would have zero qualms about it.

Quote from: CavScout;256575How is "picking which RPGs they play" not an action on their part? Someone who chooses to play Schutzstaffel: The adventures of camp guards and enjoys PCs who get favors based on the number of Jews run through the crematorium is going to find themselves outside my circle of friends. Perhaps you wouldn't toss them out, but I would and would have zero qualms about it.

Creepy gamers = Nazis?  Ok I know that wasn't your point but I've made similar examples and had something like that thrown back at me.  Now all joking aside:

No I wouldn't play that game or allow it at my table, after all as I said we have kids in the house where we play.  If the player in question liked to burn jews or attend hate rallies in his spare time then we would not be friends that's for certain but it would have nothing to do with his RPG purchases and everything to do with him as a person.

So if I buy the Maid RPG you would automatically hate me even if I bought it for the humor factor.  That's pretty harsh.  I know you probably don't like me (thanks to previous threads) and it's my fault for my often silly examples but I assure you I'm a pretty boring and all around good guy.

I like really bad horror movies with lots of gore and horrid acting, I have a particular body piercing that would make my mom twitch, and I recently quit smoking so I eat like a pig but that doesn't make me a bad guy.

The fact is I'm not talking about individual group preferences.  I'm talking about the idea that these "creepy gamers" should be removed from the hobby as a whole.

Quote from: Spinachcat;256563CORRECTION: Carcosa does have baby sacrifice and child sacrifice and cannibalism.

Hot Damn these rituals are freaky and nasty!  Many require Save or Die rolls from the Sorcerer and many have wicked side effects.   You could easily play a sword swinging barbarian in this world who kills sorcerers out of general principle.

Wouldn't that actually be closer to the source material than having PC sorcerers?

Or you could have a game world which has evil Carcosa magic and good/neutral D&D magic, which would be more 'high fantasy'.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256576Creepy gamers = Nazis?  Ok I know that wasn't your point but I've made similar examples and had something like that thrown back at me.  Now all joking aside:

No I wouldn't play that game or allow it at my table, after all as I said we have kids in the house where we play.  If the player in question liked to burn jews or attend hate rallies in his spare time then we would not be friends that's for certain but it would have nothing to do with his RPG purchases and everything to do with him as a person.

Them activily seeking out to play such a game would be enough for me to make a decision. What games they choose to play, and how they play any game, are clues to who they are.

What, and how, they play games are actions they decided to make.

QuoteSo if I buy the Maid RPG you would automatically hate me even if I bought it for the humor factor.  That's pretty harsh.  I know you probably don't like me (thanks to previous threads) and it's my fault for my often silly examples but I assure you I'm a pretty boring and all around good guy.

I haven't made a comment one way or the other about Maid RPG. I have been responding to excuses people have been using as to why you can't judge people based on the games they choose to associate with.

If, and this is a big if, Maid RPG is really about playing underage girls in subserviant and sexual roles then yes you choosing to play it would be a reflection on your character.

QuoteI like really bad horror movies with lots of gore and horrid acting, I have a particular body piercing that would make my mom twitch, and I recently quit smoking so I eat like a pig but that doesn't make me a bad guy.

Not sure what one has to do with the other. There's behavior you like and behavior you don't. There's odd behavior, there's weird behavior, there's even deviant behavior. Then there's unacceptable behavior.

They are all not equal behaviors.

Quote from: Engine;256470Again, these are questions I cannot answer without having read the book [which I also encourage others to do, by the by]. Based on my limited information, it appears to have not occurred to the author as a "problem," which may well be due to the extraordinary cultural differences between ourselves and the author. But again, that's speculation with limited information.

Maybe - but surely the people responsible for translating it and putting out an English-language edition would've thought about how it was going to be received?

Quote from: CavScout;256579Them activily seeking out to play such a game would be enough for me to make a decision. What games they choose to play, and how they play any game, are clues to who they are.

What, and how, they play games are actions they decided to make.

Right.  Using that to determine who gets to game at your house is one thing, using that to determine who gets to game anywhere else is another issue entirely.  On the flip side, if you let a nazi game at your table, I'd not want to be a part of it.  However you won't catch me trying to remove that person from the hobby, that is not my place.

I think you've got the right idea here BTW.  You're keeping your points specific to your own gaming table.  Some other people are extending their opinions beyond their personal space and into the realm of controlling other people's choices for the betterment of the hobby.

Quote from: CavScout;256579I haven't made a comment one way or the other about Maid RPG. I have been responding to excuses people have been using as to why you can't judge people based on the games they choose to associate with.

If, and this is a big if, Maid RPG is really about playing underage girls in subserviant and sexual roles then yes you choosing to play it would be a reflection on your character.

I agree.  I only brought up Maid because it's the topic of this thread.  This could apply to any game.  I'm only concerned with the idea that "creepy gamers" should be removed from the hobby altogether.

Quote from: CavScout;256579Not sure what one has to do with the other. There's behavior you like and behavior you don't. There's odd behavior, there's weird behavior, there's even deviant behavior. Then there's unacceptable behavior.

They are all not equal behaviors.

Eh that was just me rambling off things that I shouldn't be judged for.  A half thought really but my point is that you may not like my taste in movies, you might even choose not to roleplay with me because I like those films.  The thing you can not do is decide that I don't belong in the RPG community at all because you don't agree with my personal tastes.  That's the kind of dangerous thinking that has cropped up here and it bothers me.

I think there's a generalization being made that this RPG will attract only one kind of gamer and hence it needs to be purged from existence for the better of the community.

Quote from: Age of Fable;256582Maybe - but surely the people responsible for translating it and putting out an English-language edition would've thought about how it was going to be received?

You would think that.  This happens with any translation from books to films.  I thought the same thing about Takashi Miike's Dead or Alive films which are definitely not compatible with our American culture.  I have a very good friend who loves those films, doesn't make him any less of a good friend.

NOTE: Carcosa rituals also contain a few requiring rapes...and humans are differentiated by extreme skin color and they tend not to like other humans with different skin colors.   I wanna play a Bone Man with transparent flesh!

Quote from: Age of Fable;256578Wouldn't that actually be closer to the source material than having PC sorcerers?

D&D has a tradition of allowing evil or chaotic characters be listed as potential player characters, most notably the Assassin.

You could be a "good" sorcerer who defends the world against Cthuloid entities by simply performing the binding rituals to keep them from causing havoc across the surface world.

Or you could be a "neutral" sorcerer who gathers up those people he considers "evil" and use their deaths to give you access to incredible power and knowledge.    

Or you could play a very "evil" character who really, really wants to bind the Squamous Worm of the Pit to his will and then demand the secrets of unreality from Yog-Sogoth...

Quote from: Age of Fable;256578Or you could have a game world which has evil Carcosa magic and good/neutral D&D magic, which would be more 'high fantasy'.

You could, but it dilutes the impact.   Unlike high fantasy, Carcosa draws a stark line between swords and sorcery and players will be taking sides along with deciding if they are aligned for or against the Cthuloid chaos.

Quote from: jeff37923;256427If moral outrage leads to lack of profitability then the results are the same, aren't they.

QuoteNot as you are describing them. My point is store owners do not carry maid because it does not make them money, not because it is about maids. Sure, there might be a few who do it from moral outrage but they will be rare. And in the end, the result? None. The hobby is not destroyed. Now, if there was some immoral book that came out for d20...oops, there was and somehow we are not all playing bondage freaks.

The short version, few things that "will change/destroy/promote the hobby" do. Most just do not have the marketing or saturation to make a dent. Note: by marketing I do not mean advertising only but more importantly the design to appeal to a wide segment of the market.

Bill

Quote from: Spinachcat;256584NOTE: Carcosa rituals also contain a few requiring rapes...and humans are differentiated by extreme skin color and they tend not to like other humans with different skin colors.   I wanna play a Bone Man with transparent flesh!

Ah, so that must have been inspired by the rape results tables in the original Blackmoor supplement.

No, wait, what it sounds like is Carcosa went totally off the rails, and everyone is claiming a few pictures in Eldritch Wizardry indicates the depraved nature of the original rules, which was carried to its natural conclusion in Carcosa or Poison'd.

As regards The Book of Ebon Bindings, it was clear that it was over the top, almost cartoonish evil:

Quote...Unfortunately, their bubble was burst when it was pointed out that the author had purposely made the sacrifices so extreme that it would be impossible for anyone (short of a despotic Asian dictator) to carry them out -- one particularly powerful demon requires a sacrifice of five thousand slaves, each one enucleated and the eye sockets filled with rubies.

Hardly the same as imagining all the ways an eleven year old in a transparent outfit can perform sexual acts, wouldn't you think?

So, like the tired cries of 'D&D was always a tactical wargame', the equally tired cry of 'RPGs always had perversions' is just as false, and just as disingenuous.

Quote from: StormBringer;256591Hardly the same as imagining all the ways an eleven year old in a transparent outfit can perform sexual acts, wouldn't you think?

Is this in the Maid rules?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;256592Is this in the Maid rules?

Regards,
David R

I'm curious as well.  I'd gotten the impression that while the game could be used that way, it wasn't explicitly in the rulebook.

Quote from: David R;256592Is this in the Maid rules?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256596I'm curious as well.  I'd gotten the impression that while the game could be used that way, it wasn't explicitly in the rulebook.

Pundit used the online character creator and came up with that one.

A few examples:
   
     
   
     
   
     
   
       Uniform Color:    transparent      Hair Color:    indigo      Eye Color:    white      Maid Types:    Boyish & Boyish      Special Qualities:    Former Delinquent, Miniskirt, Shinigami, Evil Secret Society, Nekomimi      Favored Attribute:    Athletics      Maid Power:    Trespass      Maid Weapon:    Spear/Lance      Stress Explosion:    Shopping      
  Your name is hh. You are 12 years old. You have white eyes and indigo hair, and wear a transparent maid uniform. You are very boyish; others describe you as energetic, wild and a tomboy.

Although no one would know it looking at you now, you used to be a delinquent; for now, no one else in the mansion knows. Your maid uniform includes a particular short, tight miniskirt. You are actually a shinigami, a death reaper which carries with you an aura of death. You are a member of an evil secret society bent on world domination or destruction. You are a catgirl, possessing a variety of feline features.

In combat, you wield a spear, javelin or the like. When you are extremely upset, you go on a mad shopping spree. Due to your notable Athletics, you have the ability Trespass. You can take 1d6 Stress to intrude on a battle, love scene, etc. You can also butt in after the action has ended, and this can even work when someone is using World for Two.

Uniform Color:    transparent      Hair Color:    black      Eye Color:    blue      Maid Types:    Lolita & Heroine      Special Qualities:    Freckles, Angel/Devil, Brown Skin, Collar, Bad Reputation      Favored Attribute:    Affection      Maid Power:    Passionate Gaze      Maid Weapon:    Summoning      Stress Explosion:    Alcohol/Drugs      
  Your name is hh. You are 11 years old. You have blue eyes and black hair, and wear a transparent maid uniform. You are childlike and heroic; others describe you as young, single-minded and spirited.

You have a great deal of freckles. You are a being from a world beyond this mortal coil, charged with judging good and evil. Your skin is a beautiful, deep brown color. Your maid outfit includes a collar, like a dog's. You were involved in some very bad things in the past, making you a legend for all the wrong reasons.

In combat, you are able to summon some kind of special being to attack your enemies. When you are extremely upset, you drink alcohol or take drugs until you can't remember anymore. Due to your notable Affection, you have the ability Passionate Gaze. With just a glance, you can ingratiate yourself with the master, taking 1d6 Stress to gain 1d3 Favor.

Uniform Color:    transparent      Hair Color:    black      Eye Color:    blue      Maid Types:    Sexy & Pure      Special Qualities:    Overactive Imagination, Killed Your Lover, Betrayal, Chains, Raven      Favored Attribute:    Affection      Maid Power:    Passionate Gaze      Maid Weapon:    Stun Gun      Stress Explosion:    Rampage      
  Your name is hh. You are 11 years old. You have blue eyes and black hair, and wear a transparent maid uniform. You are sexy and pure; others describe you as pure, curvy and coquettish.

You frequently get caught up in your own imaginary world, getting lost in frequent daydreams and having trouble distinguishing fact from your own fiction. You had a lover once, but something terrible happened, and their death was by your hands; you've been afraid to fall in love again ever since. You were once deeply betrayed by a lover; you've been afraid to love again ever since. Your uniform has jangling chains attached to it. You are actually a raven, with black wings that can be displayed or hidden at will.

In combat, you keep a stun gun ready to attack enemies. When you are extremely upset, you use anything you can lay your hands on to run around destroying things around the mansion. Due to your notable Affection, you have the ability Passionate Gaze. With just a glance, you can ingratiate yourself with the master, taking 1d6 Stress to gain 1d3 Favor.

Quote from: HinterWelt;256585

Quote from: jeff37923;256427If moral outrage leads to lack of profitability then the results are the same, aren't they.

Not as you are describing them. My point is store owners do not carry maid because it does not make them money, not because it is about maids.
Sure, there might be a few who do it from moral outrage but they will be rare. And in the end, the result? None. The hobby is not destroyed. Now, if there was some immoral book that came out for d20...oops, there was and somehow we are not all playing bondage freaks.

No, I'm afraid it is exactly as I am describing it. Books like Maid or The Book of Erotic Fantasy are not carried by stores because the store owner knows that they will not sell due precisely to the "moral outrage" that they will cause.That is why a store owner would not carry it.

Instead of debating the point, just ask your average FLGS owner like I did and digest the answer you get.

Quote from: HinterWelt;256585The short version, few things that "will change/destroy/promote the hobby" do. Most just do not have the marketing or saturation to make a dent. Note: by marketing I do not mean advertising only but more importantly the design to appeal to a wide segment of the market.

I don't think I've been decrying The End is near about this, even though people have been alluding my stance to that. I don't want an increase in the creepy gamer population in the hobby and therefore do not want games around that attract creepy gamers.

Quote from: jeff37923;256443However, I'd bet that Tardy's doesn't have the "classic" porn (old issues of everything from Playboy to Juggs, to Hustler) in in the same room for everybody to see and ogle over as the comics. I'd bet he has those in a room in the back or behind the counter so that the underage kids can't get at them.

Yup. But I don't see anyone suggesting Maid or Poison, or whatever has to be carried on the same shelf as D&D. Or any where that children could easily access it. Common sense could easily be exercised here. Is someone suggesting differently?

QuoteActually, they could be the epitome of behavior and they would still drive away customers. It isn't mannerisms that people are finding offensive in this case, it is the content and context of what they are role-playing that is squicky.

Really? I think this is a pretty big stretch. I don't know, maybe you're right-but I just don't see it. But then none of the game stores in my area carry Maid, or games like it. Why would they?

Quote from: jeff37923;256452And I'd also bet that the kinds of player attracted to playing Poison'd or Maid is quite different from the kind of player attracted to playing Traveller or D&D.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I see both as just looking to have fun pretending to be something or someone else for a few hours. Freaks, and mentally imbalanced people are fucked up well before they hit the game, any game.

Quote from: CavScout;256485Depending on that "single criterion" you certainly could.

That sure is a tall order. I'd rather have more.

Quote from: jeff37923;256519To keep others like him away.

Quote from: jeff37923;256540Because it is my belief that if you allow creepy gamers into your games, then they will drive away the rest of the gamers who might have brought more than just creepiness to the game table.

I guess that could be true, but jeesh that seems like a pretty big stretch.I'd rather worry about more tangible things personally. But if this is what makes your group work, and you're having fun-then the more power to you!

QuoteAnd it isn't that I percieve Maid as a threat. I percieve Maid as an attractant of creepy gamers who I don't want to be associated with my hobby.

I see LARPing in the same light, but I just generally refrain from LARPing, and hanging with the douchebags who do.