Quote from: Serious Paul;256484And let me be clear, I don't think that any of you are wrong for disliking the game-that's certainly well within your rights. (Not that you need me to tell you that right?) I just disagree with some of your posted reactions-these games are not in a position to take over the hobby, nor will they ever be, regardless of whether a few of you protest or not.

Yes.

Quote from: King of Old School;256487Just as I don't want the non-dodgy 95% of the game's content to magically sanitize the irredeemably creepy 5%*, I don't want the creepy 5% of the game's content to unfairly tarnish the 95% that is no less above-board than the hobby in general.  Calling a spade a spade works both ways.

Yes.

Thank you for the voices of moderation and the excluded middle.

I'm coming at this conversation purely from the angle of a gamer who finds the whole idea funny and absurd.  I doubt it's going to have any negative impact on my gaming group, or even the hobby as a whole.  I doubt I'll be attending the hentai, rape, schoolgirl fetish seminar at next year's GenCon.

I just find it hilarious when people panic at the thought of a little perverse humor existing in a world with a long tradition of perverse humor.

Quote from: jeff37923;256478So when a game comes along that appeals to the creepy gamer like a hentai anime would have appealed to the creepy movie masturbater you had to deal with, its something you want promoted?

"Hey creepy gamers! Come and join Sailor Bubba in a game of Maid! It'll be a tentacle right up your alley! You can now claim to be a RPG gamer and finally be accepted within a peer group!"

I don't personally want it promoted, but I don't believe I have a right to keep it from being promoted just the same.  I'll just not care and let it succeed or fail on it's own.

Unfortunately he has the right to be creepy, now hopefully some media will come along that keeps him home masturbating rather than in the theater during a movie for kids.  We joked about him being a pervert before we knew it was actually true.  The point is I had no right to keep him from the movie just because we had suspicions that he was going in there all the time for creepy reasons.  Even though we were right it wasn't until he shared his perversion that we were able to take action.

Should we have censored Mulan from the theater after that incident?  Should we censor an RPG because it has the potential for drawing in perverts?  No.  If a player showed up to my game with Maid I'd refuse to play and probably be upset that he brought that kind of game to our table.  (Our host has kids.)

You seem to think that the Maid RPG will fill our nice community with heathens.  Which is just as insane as me saying Maid is the same as Dungeons and Dragons.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256494Unfortunately he has the right to be creepy,

That doesn't mean that he will be given immunity from ostracism or scorn because he chooses to be creepy.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256494Should we have censored Mulan from the theater after that incident?  Should we censor an RPG because it has the potential for drawing in perverts?  

No to both, but we don't have to welcome any creepy gamers a RPG attracts with its content, either. Or we could just be pre-emptive and discourage the RPG that attracts creepy gamers.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256494If a player showed up to my game with Maid I'd refuse to play and probably be upset that he brought that kind of game to our table.  (Our host has kids.)

So it seems that we are of a like-mindedness on the subject. A question though, which would you be the more upset by, the game Maid showing up or the player who brought it to play?

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256494You seem to think that the Maid RPG will fill our nice community with heathens.  Which is just as insane as me saying Maid is the same as Dungeons and Dragons.

I think that there are enough heathens already in our nice community. I don't want to attract any more and would like to remove a few that have made this hobby their home.

Quote from: jeff37923;256505No to both, but we don't have to welcome any creepy gamers a RPG attracts with its content, either. Or we could just be pre-emptive and discourage the RPG that attracts creepy gamers.

Do we know what percentage of Maid players are creepy? I mean, what you're talking about is prejudice, discrimination against a person on the basis of a game they play. Now, if 99 percent of Maid players are baby-raping weirdos, then yeah, you can make a logical case that maybe we should discourage the RPG [which I think is already being done, quite nicely]. But if there isn't a strong correlation between the two - or if we don't know the correlation - I think it's unjust to discriminate against the game for the actions of a few or an unknown number of its participants.

Quote from: Engine;256507Do we know what percentage of Maid players are creepy? I mean, what you're talking about is prejudice, discrimination against a person on the basis of a game they play. Now, if 99 percent of Maid players are baby-raping weirdos, then yeah, you can make a logical case that maybe we should discourage the RPG [which I think is already being done, quite nicely]. But if there isn't a strong correlation between the two - or if we don't know the correlation - I think it's unjust to discriminate against the game for the actions of a few or an unknown number of its participants.

I don't know what exact percentage of FATAL or Poison'd players are creepy, but I still don't want a player who is attracted to that kind of content in a game around my hobby. Same with Maid, the kind of player who would enjoy a game where their role-playing character is at the bottom-most social rung and must take various forms of abuse while performing their job and pretend to put up with it smiling, isn't the kind of player I want around.

Social justice be damned, I'll stick to common sense in my gaming prejudices and discriminations.

Quote from: jeff37923;256505That doesn't mean that he will be given immunity from ostracism or scorn because he chooses to be creepy.

Why take the time to ostracize or scorn him?  He keeps to himself I couldn't care less.

Quote from: jeff37923;256505No to both, but we don't have to welcome any creepy gamers a RPG attracts with its content, either. Or we could just be pre-emptive and discourage the RPG that attracts creepy gamers.

Being pre-emptive can get you in trouble and never works in the end.  Prohibition?

Quote from: jeff37923;256505So it seems that we are of a like-mindedness on the subject. A question though, which would you be the more upset by, the game Maid showing up or the player who brought it to play?

The player, for not having the common sense to keep such content away from the prying eyes of children.  I would probably laugh at the game were we in a different location (like that player's home).  The game itself wouldn't upset me at all.

Quote from: jeff37923;256505I think that there are enough heathens already in our nice community. I don't want to attract any more and would like to remove a few that have made this hobby their home.

See that's the view that bothers me.  I'll admire you for having a good moral foundation, however I have to oppose you for trying to impose those morals on anyone else.  Where do you draw the line?  What gives you the right to say who stays and who goes?  Ideally everything should be taken on a case by case basis.  People should be judged fairly regardless of what games they play.  Sadly people seem generally unable to do that.

A kid gets hurt at a playground and parents get the playground torn down.  Now nobody gets to have fun.  That is a sad trend happening in this world and it's a bad trend.  Nevermind that the kid had no respect for the playground equipment and got hurt thanks to improper parent supervision or because of his own unnacceptable behavior.

This example is why I draw parallels between unrelated forms of entertainment.  No matter the hobby, nobody is served by pre-emptive censorship.  We're taking the emphasis off the shoulders of the individual, who should be responsible for their own actions.

The gun doesn't kill people.  The porn magazine doesn't create the pervert.    The Maid RPG doesn't ruin the hobby.  People do these things, they are responsible.  We don't need to be protected from the outside world, the outside world needs to be protected from us.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Why take the time to ostracize or scorn him?  He keeps to himself I couldn't care less.

To keep others like him away.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Being pre-emptive can get you in trouble and never works in the end.  Prohibition?

I'll take that risk because comparing Prohibition to deciding who you think is a creepy gamer and don't want around your hobby are two extraordinarily different subjects.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513See that's the view that bothers me.  Where do you draw the line?  What gives you the right to say who stays and who goes?

Ideally everything should be taken on a case by case basis.  People should be judged fairly regardless of what games they play.  Sadly people seem generally unable to do that.

A kid gets hurt at a playground and parents get the playground torn down.  Now nobody gets to have fun.  That is a sad trend happening in this world and it's a bad trend.  Nevermind that the kid had no respect for the playground equipment and got hurt thanks to improper parent supervision or because of his own unnacceptable behavior.

This example is why I draw parallels between unrelated forms of entertainment.  No matter the hobby, nobody is served by pre-emptive censorship.  We're taking the emphasis off the shoulders of the individual, who should be responsible for their own actions.

The gun doesn't kill people.  The porn magazine doesn't create the pervert.    The Maid RPG doesn't ruin the hobby.  People do these things, they are responsible.  We don't need to be protected from the outside world, the outside world needs to be protected from us.

 I'm talking about not wanting creepy gamers in my hobby and not wanting games that will attract creepy gamers to my hobby. I'm really not sure what you are talking about.

Quote from: jeff37923;256519To keep others like him away.

Why?

Quote from: jeff37923;256519I'll take that risk because comparing Prohibition to deciding who you think is a creepy gamer and don't want around your hobby are two extraordinarily different subjects.

Why are they different?

Quote from: jeff37923;256519I'm talking about not wanting creepy gamers in my hobby and not wanting games that will attract creepy gamers to my hobby. I'm really not sure what you are talking about.

Your hobby?  I'm sorry I didn't realize you were it's number one member.

What you talk about is pre-emptive censorship and it's wrong.  You have no right to tell me what games I can and can't play.  You have no right to tell companies what they can and cannot publish.  You have no right to take the playground away from the other kids just because yours fell off the monkey bars.

Just because you precieve a threat doesn't mean you have a right to remove it.  The Maid RPG is not a bomb threat, and nobody has appointed you sherriff of roleplaying town.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256525What you talk about is pre-emptive censorship and it's wrong.  You have no right to tell me what games I can and can't play.  You have no right to tell companies what they can and cannot publish.

He has every right to tell you such stuff, and to tell them such stuff.

Neither you nor they are required in any way to listen.  Or care.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;256528He has every right to tell you such stuff, and to tell them such stuff.

Neither you nor they are required in any way to listen.  Or care.

Good point.  Although telling is a bad word.  He can ask them not to publish it, and ask people not to buy it, even ask conventions not to allow people to play it.

So yes maybe he's just sharing his concerns, which is his right.  Unfortunately he's using words that can be described as discrimination at best.

"We don't like your kind 'round these parts." is not the kind of phrase I wish to see abused at roleplaying conventions.  Eventually we weed out all the people that we feel are creepy in any way and what do we have left?  Other communities have tried it and it leads to inbreeding.  

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256534So he's sharing his concerns, unfortunately he's using words that can be described as discrimination at best.

Pshaw.

Next thing, you'll be telling me that just because I universally refer to posting on Facebook as "Feeding the stalkers", I'm being reactionary.

Quote from: RPGPundit;256342Maid does this by contributing, along with almost all the other Forger games, to the overall feeling that "this is the sort of stuff we RPG gamers are into!". Its like putting up a big sign saying "Lawncrappers welcome!".

If Maid / Poison'd was in half the book stores and game stores, I could see where your concern would make sense.   But the reality is that small press games (of any quality) are almost completely absent from game stores, certainly absent from nearly all book stores and only exist within the Online / Convention community of hardcore gamers...who mostly just play D&D.

Quote from: Serious Paul;256177I use my wallet to express my opinions on games. I don't like it, I don't buy it. I don't play it. That simple.

Trends follow the money.   If a trend has no profit potential, that trend dies.

Quote from: Casey777;256196Carcosa, among many other "weird" things, has a PC class, Sorcerer, that uses human sacrifice to help power most of its spells. Children, exotic (including illegal) ingredients, torture & violence (both physical and / or sexual) are often involved.

My copy of Carcosa arrived this morning.   I will be doing a review for RPG.net and I have flipped through the book.   Yes, naked human sacrifice is the key component in most rituals...aka, it emulates the murderous sorcery described in Lovecraft, Howard and Moorcock.   I have seen no references (so far) to children or sexual violence.  

If you want to play a Sorcerer who does not sacrifice, you can do banishing rituals.  But like Melnibone, Carcosa is a place where blood flows to ignite magic.

Quote from: walkerp;256282What combats do you get into in this game that would take place in a mansion that has a robot maid?  I'm more intrigued than I was.

This is how threads sell copies.

Quote from: jeff37923;256512the kind of player who would enjoy a game where their role-playing character is at the bottom-most social rung and must take various forms of abuse while performing their job and pretend to put up with it smiling, isn't the kind of player I want around.

Hmm....so no Paranoia?

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256525Why?

Because it is my belief that if you allow creepy gamers into your games, then they will drive away the rest of the gamers who might have brought more than just creepiness to the game table. If, however, you like surrounding yourself with creepy gamers, then be my guest. Just don't complain when you find that nobody besides creepy gamers wish to play at your table.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Why are they different?

If you can't figure out why prohibition and keeping things that attract creepy gamers away, you're just plain fucked.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Your hobby?  I'm sorry I didn't realize you were it's number one member.

What you talk about is pre-emptive censorship and it's wrong.  You have no right to tell me what games I can and can't play.  You have no right to tell companies what they can and cannot publish.  You have no right to take the playground away from the other kids just because yours fell off the monkey bars.

Just because you precieve a threat doesn't mean you have a right to remove it.  The Maid RPG is not a bomb threat, and nobody has appointed you sherriff of roleplaying town.

It is my hobby, therefore I take ownership of my opinion about it.

And it isn't that I percieve Maid as a threat. I percieve Maid as an attractant of creepy gamers who I don't want to be associated with my hobby.

Quote from: jeff37923;256512Social justice be damned, I'll stick to common sense in my gaming prejudices and discriminations.

You won't be alone: it's what most people do. We don't consider things, we don't apply logic to things, we don't seek out information to verify our opinions, we just judge, mostly subconsciously, and call it "common sense." I do it all the time. I guess the difference is that I try not to, and when someone points out that I'm doing it, I reconsider.

Which isn't to say you should do the same; being more like me might not be particularly appealing to you.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;256536Pshaw.

Next thing, you'll be telling me that just because I universally refer to posting on Facebook as "Feeding the stalkers", I'm being reactionary.

No, that's hilarious, but still discrimination.