Quote from: Idinsinuation;256457Entertainment is entertainment.  Drawing a distinction between them is naive.  

 No, it just demonstrates a lack of discrimination.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256457Really, show me the foundation or your side of the argument?  How is this conversation anything but nonsense, unless we can predict the future?

Well, for starters I never said that Poison'd or Maid would destroy the hobby. I did say that I don't want the kind of player who ejoys those games to be attracted and accepted into the hobby as its mainstream. I think they would tend to be creepy gamers.

Quote from: jeff37923;256461It doesn't have to be a bastion of evil to attract a creepy gamer.

The same can be said for any roleplaying game.

When I worked at a movie theater the Disney cartoon Mulan premiered and we had this guy who watched it 64+ times.  He'd come to the theater, pay for all day's showings and read a book between showtimes.

After a few weeks of this we ended up having to kick him out.  He was standing near our ticket taker as familys were lined up for a newer kid's movie (Matilda I think).  He made a comment about how he thought Mulan was sexy but she had small tits.  We escorted him out and it turns out he'd been masturbating in the shows when he was pretty much alone, which after two to three weeks he had more than a few opportunities.

Creepy people exist, no matter how hard you try you can't get rid of them.  They're attracted to a variety of things, often which hold no intrinsic perversion of their own.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;256468Are you starting a gamer babysitting service, now?

I'm saying, the argument is that the game itself is not any different from other RPGs, and that the type of people it might attract is not any different from regular gamers.

I don't think that's true at all. I know if I was a dad, all else being equal, which one I'd rather have babysitting my 10 year old daughter. Hint: its the one that isn't into the game about 10 year old girls in transparent maid uniforms.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;256465Paul, would you prefer your daughter be babysat by someone who was "really into" D&D, or someone who was "really into" Maid?

Without knowing anything else about the person, it would be impossible to judge. You cannot judge someone's competence to watch your children based on a single criterion. It's a spurious argument intended to elicit an emotional response, a response not based on logic but rather on the same visceral emotional reaction I mentioned earlier.

Honestly, "high school debater" is an elevation.

Quote from: jeff37923;256471I did say that I don't want the kind of player who ejoys those games to be attracted and accepted into the hobby as its mainstream.

To be part of the mainstream of the hobby, they would have to play D&D.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256462Too late, anything you do for entertainment is technically in a shared category.  That doesn't mean you're a pervert, it just means you (like many others) like doing things purely for fun.

Being that they're both forms of entertainment you can draw comparisons between the two hobbies even if they aren't the same thing.

Bullshit.

I enjoy horseback riding and RPGs. You are claiming that they are a shared category because I enjoy both and I can find more differences than similarities with minimal effort. You need to discriminate more.

The bigger turn-off for me and most people I associate with in a gaming store is either the non-communicative, eye-contact avoiding young male who is far more concerned with maxing out his wh40k army or Magic deck than actually helping anyone or the monotonal know-it-all egomaniac who can't answer a simple question without going into a long detailed monologue about his personal take on the subject of the question.  

I think if we really want to help protect the hobby, we have a lot more work to do with those two than the few indie hipsters who want to buy a copy of Maid.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256472The same can be said for any roleplaying game.

When I worked at a movie theater the Disney cartoon Mulan premiered and we had this guy who watched it 64+ times.  He'd come to the theater, pay for all day's showings and read a book between showtimes.

After a few weeks of this we ended up having to kick him out.  He was standing near our ticket taker as familys were lined up for a newer kid's movie (Matilda I think).  He made a comment about how he thought Mulan was sexy but she had small tits.  We escorted him out and it turns out he'd been masturbating in the shows when he was pretty much alone, which after two to three weeks he had more than a few opportunities.

Creepy people exist, no matter how hard you try you can't get rid of them.  They're attracted to a variety of things, often which hold no intrinsic perversion of their own.

So when a game comes along that appeals to the creepy gamer like a hentai anime would have appealed to the creepy movie masturbater you had to deal with, its something you want promoted?

"Hey creepy gamers! Come and join Sailor Bubba in a game of Maid! It'll be a tentacle right up your alley! You can now claim to be a RPG gamer and finally be accepted within a peer group!"

Quote from: RPGPundit;256465Paul, would you prefer your daughter be babysat by someone who was "really into" D&D, or someone who was "really into" Maid?

I get where you're trying to go with this, and if all I had was those two factors to pass judgment with then maybe this would be an issue.

(Luckily I go with option C, which is I don't game with people I wouldn't want around my kids or in my house, no matter what game they play or why. Fucked up is not a symptom of the game, but rather a symptom of their fucked up lives.)

Quote from: RPGPundit;256473I'm saying, the argument is that the game itself is not any different from other RPGs, and that the type of people it might attract is not any different from regular gamers.

*Shrug*

Boiled down that far, I don't have a comment either way around.  

In terms of the existence of the game as an object, I don't have much concern.  I'd consider running Maid for a very small group of my players - who are all female.  The same ones that played through (I shit you not) Pleasure Prison of the B'Thuvian Demon Whore.  We'd play it once, laugh like hyenas, and be done.

Now, if you're talking about a serious fan community, that's where we start running into oddities.  Because such a community would create a place where Hentai fandom and RPG people would interact (something thus far exiled to the dark festering reaches of 4chan).

The book-as-a-book, I shrug.  Some of the potential fan communities, sitting latent and unexpressed...  They make me twitch to consider.  But I'll wait, and if such things grow, I'll condemn those.

If there had been a community of hardcore HoL nasty-fans, big on torture jokes and dirty little-boy-and-a-priest stories, I'd have been filled with piss and vinegar.

But there weren't.

And I don't think we'll see it here, either.

And let me be clear, I don't think that any of you are wrong for disliking the game-that's certainly well within your rights. (Not that you need me to tell you that right?) I just disagree with some of your posted reactions-these games are not in a position to take over the hobby, nor will they ever be, regardless of whether a few of you protest or not. I think, for my part, your efforts would be better spent on other things. (I sound like Kyle I know. I'll do some penance later.)

Quote from: Engine;256474You cannot judge someone's competence to watch your children based on a single criterion.

Depending on that "single criterion" you certainly could.

Quote from: RPGPundit;256473I don't think that's true at all. I know if I was a dad, all else being equal, which one I'd rather have babysitting my 10 year old daughter. Hint: its the one that isn't into the game about 10 year old girls in transparent maid uniforms.

Okay, for the record: Maid isn't "about" 10yo girls in transparent maid uniforms; that is merely an isolated example of play that will (according to the translators) be removed from future editions of the game.  The vast, vast majority of the game's actual text contains nothing so perverse.

Just as I don't want the non-dodgy 95% of the game's content to magically sanitize the irredeemably creepy 5%*, I don't want the creepy 5% of the game's content to unfairly tarnish the 95% that is no less above-board than the hobby in general.  Calling a spade a spade works both ways.

KoOS

* Yes, I do think that the irredeemably creepy 5% of the book draws from a larger body of irredeemably creepy pedophilic hentai and that there's some overlap of interest, but I'm talking about the game as written.

Quote from: CavScout;256485Depending on that "single criterion" you certainly could.

An excellent point. In this case, I don't think the predictive value of "plays Maid" is high enough to make a differentiation, particularly given the default gamestate of Maid, which seems to be anime-silly, not hentai-rapey.

Quote from: walkerp;256477The bigger turn-off for me and most people I associate with in a gaming store is either the non-communicative, eye-contact avoiding young male who is far more concerned with maxing out his wh40k army or Magic deck than actually helping anyone or the monotonal know-it-all egomaniac who can't answer a simple question without going into a long detailed monologue about his personal take on the subject of the question.  

I think if we really want to help protect the hobby, we have a lot more work to do with those two than the few indie hipsters who want to buy a copy of Maid.

Insofar as you're talking about the hobby in general, I agree with this 100% and said so in the other thread (albeit you forgot the key term "fatbeard").

KoOS