Quote from: Engine;256448If Poison'd and Maid have adult themes and content, I don't see why the game store owner can't simply do the same with them.

Which is why you don't watch She's Got A Cum Fixation on a park bench with the audio turned up. If what you're doing isn't for public consumption, you don't do it in public. I wouldn't play our Shadowrun game in public, either.

If someone wishes to play Poison'd or Maid in private, that is fine with me. In fact it is preferred by me. I still don't want a player of those games to say that Poison'd and Maid are just like RPGs like Traveller or D&D.

And I'd also bet that the kinds of player attracted to playing Poison'd or Maid is quite different from the kind of player attracted to playing Traveller or D&D.

I just looked over some material on Maid, and I'm certainly going to do what I can to obtain a copy of it. I think there's a lot of ignorance going on, and I realize some of it is mine, so I've decided to remedy that. I will say, based on what I've seen so far, this tempest in a teacup is much ado about very little. Poison'd may well be another thing entirely, but from what I've seen Maid...well, it's not the bastion of evil I've been told it is.

Quote from: walkerp;256377This is high school debate team tactics stuff, RPGPundit.  Come on.

Yes, his tactic of trying to change the subject certainly was.  So again, either he has conceded the subject, or he is trying to change topic altogether, which is it?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Engine;256389I don't think most people care about the answers to these questions. I think they hear "you can play a little girl who has sex," and immediately react strongly against it, without asking deeper questions, because child sexuality produces a powerful emotional response. Even a lot of people who believe they're asking the deeper questions are subconsciously being strongly effected by their preconceptions, so powerful is the emotional effect of child sexuality. What I want to know is if this specific case is logically justified in producing such responses; at this point, I do not possess enough information to make an accurate assessment.

This is true, but the same skepticism could be applied to the creators of the game. Are they competent to handle the issue of child abuse? How do they argue for their competence?

If they argue that they don't have any special qualifications (in any sense) but that they should be able to present it appropriately, then why shouldn't anyone be able to criticise them and be trusted that they're criticising them appropriately?

The game doesn't seem to be presented as 'handling child abuse appropriately' (leaving aside the question whether any game whose primary aim is fun ever could). Nor does it seem to be emphasising its 'controversial' nature to get sales. It actually seems to be pitching itself as a game of whacky comic adventures (and the review on rpg.net gives the same impression). Which implies that they don't think the whole thing is a big deal. And to me, that doesn't inspire confidence in their motives or judgement.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256441This does make a good point though, not everyone who likes something can be pinned with a particular label.  Something that has been insinuated about the kind of people who might find Maid entertaining.

This is a good point.  I'm sure that many, maybe even most, of the people who find Maid appealing are looking more for P.G. Wodehouse than, say Legend of the Overfiend.  I don't think it's fair to say that there's anything perverse about those people (unless you consider Wodehouse perverse, I suppose).

What I despise about these threads are the people who say that because you can play it Wooster-and-Jeeves-style and there is absolutely nothing questionable about that kind of play, then all people who want to play Maid are equally innocent... even if they're more interested in the genre typified by the example of play with the 26yo compelling the 10yo to wear a transparent maid outfit and rub her snatch with a broomstick.  Are you fucking kidding me?!? Because yes, there are people who will play Maid because they think that's just peachy; they're the same people who consume the kind of maid hentai from which the game originally spawned.  And yes, those people, small a minority though they almost certainly are, are creepy as fuck.  And no, the fact that you want to play Wooster and Jeeves* does not make those people any less fucking creepy, fuck you very much.

That doesn't mean Maid should be censored or banned or anything like that.  Just call a spade a spade.

KoOS

* For the record, I fucking love Jeeves and Wooster with Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie.

Quote from: jeff37923;256451No, because you experience a movie differently than you experience a RPG.

Entertainment is entertainment.  Drawing a distinction between them is naive.  Trends in entertainment carry over to all of them.

Mainstream vs. underground?  Come on.  It's not that hard to see.  

Quote from: jeff37923;256451And this is where you go off the deep end into nonsense.

Really, show me the foundation or your side of the argument?  How is this conversation anything but nonsense, unless we can predict the future?

Quote from: jeff37923;256451HoL is satire, obviously and deliberately so. Poison'd and Maid are only jokes in spite of themselves. Big difference that.

Tell that to a general customer who wanders by the gaming racks which contain all 3 products as well as the more popular gaming fair.  Will they draw such dinstinctions?  You're arguing because you know better, and are somehow assuming that everyone will as well.

Quote from: jeff37923;256451So keep track of sales figures for Maid and get back to us on that.

What did I say?  I doubt it unless they raise the exposure.  With the right promotion campaign Maid could be sensationalized and probably sell pretty well to the kind of people who like sensational entertainment.

Watch TV, it's not that hard to see happening in every country. Tabloids anyone?

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256449Things like this have never been roleplayed until now?  I find that rather hard to believe.

Vampire the Mascarade (just an example) has the same potential for bad public appearance which is why good players of that game know they should be careful how they act in public.

Levi beat me to it. Indeed look up some of the exposes on Vampire LARPing.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256449Porn fans deal with this all the time, they buy their products in public but generally keep the content private.

I don't know about you, but I really don't want my RPG hobby placed in the same category as porn fandom.

[QUOTE="jeff37923]No, because you experience a movie differently than you experience a RPG.[/QUOTE]

So RPGs are special... you know, a lot of "general public" thinks that special=retard, so don't speak about it loud, "general public" might get bad impression about RPGs...

Quote from: jeff37923;256458I don't know about you, but I really don't want my RPG hobby placed in the same category as porn fandom.

Too late, anything you do for entertainment is technically in a shared category.  That doesn't mean you're a pervert, it just means you (like many others) like doing things purely for fun.

Quote from: King of Old School;256456That doesn't mean Maid should be censored or banned or anything like that.  Just call a spade a spade.

KoOS

That is a great line, which pretty much sums up this discussion IMO.

Quote from: Engine;256453Maid...well, it's not the bastion of evil I've been told it is.

It doesn't have to be a bastion of evil to attract a creepy gamer.

Quote from: jeff37923;256458I don't know about you, but I really don't want my RPG hobby placed in the same category as porn fandom.

Too late, anything you do for entertainment is technically in a shared category.  That doesn't mean you're a pervert, it just means you (like many others) like doing things purely for fun.

Being that they're both forms of entertainment you can draw comparisons between the two hobbies even if they aren't the same thing.

Quote from: King of Old School;256456That doesn't mean Maid should be censored or banned or anything like that.  Just call a spade a spade.

KoOS

That is a great line, which pretty much sums up this discussion IMO.

Quote from: Serious Paul;256430Does this mean I won't take my kids there?

Paul, would you prefer your daughter be babysat by someone who was "really into" D&D, or someone who was "really into" Maid?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;256454So again, either he has conceded the subject, or he is trying to change topic altogether, which is it?

The third option, which is "talking about two things at the same time." That's okay, right?

Quote from: RPGPundit;256465Paul, would you prefer your daughter be babysat by someone who was "really into" D&D, or someone who was "really into" Maid?

Are you starting a gamer babysitting service, now?

Quote from: Age of Fable;256455This is true, but the same skepticism could be applied to the creators of the game. Are they competent to handle the issue of child abuse? How do they argue for their competence?

Again, these are questions I cannot answer without having read the book [which I also encourage others to do, by the by]. Based on my limited information, it appears to have not occurred to the author as a "problem," which may well be due to the extraordinary cultural differences between ourselves and the author. But again, that's speculation with limited information.

Quote from: jeff37923;256461It doesn't have to be a bastion of evil to attract a creepy gamer.

Shadowrun contains very specific rules for blood sacrifice, and is ultimately a game about felonious criminal activity; while most players are "just folks," some of these elements attract a certain type of person. Vampire is perhaps even more guilty of attracting people I consider "creepy." But I don't blame the games for that, but rather the creepy people. And I don't worry too much about people mistaking me for them.