How about if you just don't want what you do in a role-playing game associated with what you and a majority of others consider to be some seriously sick shit?

I don't want my Traveller or D&D games thrown into the same category as Poison'd or Maid. Not only are they different games, but the general kind of people who play them are different (I don't encounter many hentai fans or artistes playing Traveller or D&D).

Quote from: Engine;2563892. RPG players not wanting the association doesn't mean the association is harmful; they could be over-reacting. What is the amount of actual harm to the hobby/industry caused by Maid and other, similar, games? We've heard a lot of hypotheticals, but little in the way of actual evidence.

I don't think most people care about the answers to these questions.

Wrong.

I went through this when Poison'd came out. So, I invite others to do this as well, just to find out for themselves.

Ask you FLGS or game club owner if they would allow you to run the game publicly at their establishment. Ask them if they would sell the game at their establishment. Tell them where they can read the online discussions about the game.

Then listen to their response.

In the case of Poison'd, none of the FLGS's in Knoxville would either allow the game to be run in their store or stock the game for sale. One store owner even went so far as to say that, "Not only is there not a large enough market for a game like this but it would drive away customers if they saw it in the store being played."

Quote from: jeff37923;256391How about if you just don't want what you do in a role-playing game associated with what you and a majority of others consider to be some seriously sick shit?

Well, here's the good news, on that account: almost no one will have ever heard of these games. In the rare case that you meet someone who is aware of Maid and Poison'd but is not aware that they're very unrepresentative of roleplaying, you may have to explain the difference to them.

I belong to a lot of groups which contain members who are universally reviled, and yes, sometimes that reviling is directed at me, and it's unfair and it sucks for me. But what are you going to do? Quit your job at the post office because you're tired of people saying, "Whoa, don't go postal on me!" Stop being a priest because everyone now distorts the relative commonality of child molesters within the clergy? Stop playing RPGs - or make someone else stop playing RPGs - just so you'll never have to say, "No, I don't play those kinds of games, and they make me sick."

No, thanks. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, and if people misunderstand, I will explain it to them. If they still refuse to understand, then they are incorrect and irrational and there's not very much I can do about that. But I am a tolerant and accepting sort; not everyone is, and that's fine. I tolerate even the intolerant, although I like to try to spread tolerance when and how I can.

Quote from: jeff37923;256395In the case of Poison'd, none of the FLGS's in Knoxville would either allow the game to be run in their store or stock the game for sale. One store owner even went so far as to say that, "Not only is there not a large enough market for a game like this but it would drive away customers if they saw it in the store being played."

Okay, so where's the harm to the industry in Knoxville, if game stores won't sell it or let it be played?

Quote from: jeff37923I don't want my Traveller or D&D games thrown into the same category as Poison'd or Maid. Not only are they different games, but the general kind of people who play them are different (I don't encounter many hentai fans or artistes playing Traveller or D&D).

I don't want Wild Strawberries or Ratatouille be trown to same category as She's Got A Cum Fixation or Throat Gaggers #2, but somehow all of these fall into "movie" category... what should I do about it...? tell everyone that porn is sick and it will eventually destroy movies...?

Quote from: jeff37923;256391Ask you FLGS or game club owner if they would allow you to run the game publicly at their establishment.

If I were the owner of a FLGS I wouldn't let anyone I didn't know damned well to run a game at my store front. No matter what game they ran.

QuoteAsk them if they would sell the game at their establishment.

I think the FLGS would sell anything that makes money. Maybe your local store is different, but the three or four around here would sell kidney's if it were legal and made money.

QuoteHow about if you just don't want what you do in a role-playing game associated with what you and a majority of others consider to be some seriously sick shit?

I'd say keep doing what you do, and not worry about some bullshit goofy ass game that no one will ever buy or see.

QuoteI don't encounter many hentai fans or artistes playing Traveller or D&D

Frankly I don't encounter many Hentai fans period. People get so worked up about shit they see on the internet that they think it's coming to a block near them soon, when in reality it's just marginalia at best.

:combust:


I have a small side-trip to Malta to make. Hopefully when i get back, all will be well.

Quote from: Engine;256398Okay, so where's the harm to the industry in Knoxville, if game stores won't sell it or let it be played?

The harm would be if they tried to sell it or let it be played.

You quoted too little of my post.

Quote from: Fritzs;256399I don't want Wild Strawberries or Ratatouille be trown to same category as She's Got A Cum Fixation or Throat Gaggers #2, but somehow all of these fall into "movie" category... what should I do about it...? tell everyone that porn is sick and it will eventually destroy movies...?

It all depends on who you want hanging around you when you watch movies. Do you want the people who are attracted to movies like Wild Strawberries or Ratatouille around you or do you want the people who are attracted to movies like She's Got A Cum Fixation or Throat Gaggers #2 hanging around you?

Take your pick, you will have to grade yourself on the answer.

Quote from: Serious Paul;256403I think the FLGS would sell anything that makes money.

And if selling Poison'd or Maid or having those games played in public would drive away business from their store, then they wouldn't make money now would they?

Quote from: Serious Paul;256403Frankly I don't encounter many Hentai fans period.

I wish that I had been so lucky.

EDIT:

It should be acknowledged that if you are running a store, that there is a kind of business that you do not want in a store. That is the customer who pays for material that will offend other customers into not spending their money at your store or who by their behavior drives away other customers. Pundit calls them Lawncrappers and that would be a pretty accurate name.

If the game attracts players who drive away other customers, then you do want those players in your store.

Quote from: jeff37923;256410It all depends on who you want hanging around you when you watch movies. Do you want the people who are attracted to movies like Wild Strawberries or Ratatouille around you or do you want the people who are attracted to movies like She's Got A Cum Fixation or Throat Gaggers #2 hanging around you?

Take your pick, you will have to grade yourself on the answer.

I'll take Pulp Fiction and Oldboy.  I doubt Wild Strawberries /Ratatouille will be hanging out with She's Got A Cum Fixation/Throat Gaggers #2, and I don't want to hang out with either of them.

I'd bet somewhere we can find a quote where an early filmmaker pointed to porn and proclaimed the inevitable downfall of the film industry.  If so was he right?

Did HoL bring down the RPG hobby?

Quote from: jeff37923;256411And if selling Poison'd or Maid or having those games played in public would drive away business from their store, then they wouldn't make money now would they?

Who would it drive away?  I've been in plenty of game/hobby shops with gaming going on and hentei for sale (albeit kept behind the counter).  One shop from my old hometown in particular is still booming to this day despite carrying a variety of adult oriented products.

Quote from: jeff37923;256395In the case of Poison'd, none of the FLGS's in Knoxville would either allow the game to be run in their store or stock the game for sale. One store owner even went so far as to say that, "Not only is there not a large enough market for a game like this but it would drive away customers if they saw it in the store being played."

I hate to tell you this but that would change in a heart beat if it sold 50 copies a week...heck, if it sold 25 or 20 it would still get carried. You mistake "moral outrage" for lack of profitability. It is just not worth the potential trouble. This is why such a game will never be a "threat" to the hobby.

Bill

ETA: the HoL example above is an excellent example. It sold hot when it first came out. I knew many store owners (in the prerelease stage) who proclaimed they would never carry such a book, it was immoral to them. When it really sold, they changed their tune and suddenly "it was not that bad".

Quote from: StormBringer;256361How are those correlated again?  In one, the behaviour towards an underage girl is entirely appropriate, and in the other it isn't.  Who here said that teenaged crushes are disgusting or inappropriate for RPGs?  Are you saying that a teenage crush is the same thing as sexualizing an eleven year old?

I wasn't going to post in this thread again, but...

In Nob's example of play, Rook loves Pandareos in every way imaginable, but when she attempts to steal a kiss from the man, he only turns away and remarks absent-mindedly that she should wait until she's a little older. However, the problem is that Rook never gets older. She's frozen in time, and that doesn't affect only her physical appearance: she could live for ten thousand years, and still remain even mentally and emotionally a teenager. She's explicitly not an old mind in a young body, and she won't become more mature or worldly over the millennia. She'll be literally be underage and unaging, forever.

Now, a number of posters at this site have stated in the past that they simply wouldn't allow teenage PCs, at all, and that there are no romances or involved relationships between the characters in their games. In Maid, that can't be the case since it's all about relationships and doesn't set an official starting age of any kind. If a thirteen-year-old maid in that game tries to kiss, well, anyone else, how does that "sexualize" the PC in question more than Rook's complicated relationship with Pandareos? (Again, of course, any sexual advances in Maid are brought into play by players, not the rules, just as Pandareos obviously could change his mind about Rook.)

As for humiliation, anyone who realizes the depths of Rook's affections could easily turn those against her, sapping her strength and breaking her will. An enemy might seduce Pandareos and flaunt that in her face; slowly corrupt him into something that she doesn't want him to be but cannot stop from becoming; talk him into demanding distasteful chores from her because she's so eager to please him, to prove her love; and use all this to test his true feelings towards her in order to gain further power over him as well by ruining the girl. This is how you fight in Nobilis, after all: by Nettling.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256414I'd bet somewhere we can find a quote where an early filmmaker pointed to porn and proclaimed the inevitable downfall of the film industry.  If so was he right?

Did HoL bring down the RPG hobby?

You'd have to talk to Fritzs about that. I think that the comparison between movies and games is tenuous at best.

And HoL isn't actually a game. It is a work of satire. Says so in the book itself.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;256414Who would it drive away?  

People who find the content offensive, which seems to be a large enough segment that it would effect sales for a FLGS. Just from this thread alone, you can see that the content is controversial. Most businessmen avoid controversy if they want to maintain their business because controversy rarely sells.

Quote from: HinterWelt;256419I hate to tell you this but that would change in a heart beat if it sold 50 copies a week...heck, if it sold 25 or 20 it would still get carried. You mistake "moral outrage" for lack of profitability. It is just not worth the potential trouble. This is why such a game will never be a "threat" to the hobby.

Bill

If moral outrage leads to lack of profitability then the results are the same, aren't they.

Quote from: HinterWelt;256419ETA: the HoL example above is an excellent example. It sold hot when it first came out. I knew many store owners (in the prerelease stage) who proclaimed they would never carry such a book, it was immoral to them. When it really sold, they changed their tune and suddenly "it was not that bad".

That is because HoL is a work of satire.